brakelite

I was thinking something along the very same lines...but you expressed it all perfectly.

I also find it interesting that you like to heap condemnation and calumny upon my church while ignoring completely what I actually wrote above. A very poor way of rejecting a message...by shooting the messenger. Please take some advice from a very wise Christlike woman...If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule, do not place him in a false light, or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position....and elsewhere she added...Suppose a brother held a view that differed from yours, and he should come to you, proposing that you sit down with him and make an investigation of that point in the Scriptures; should you rise up, filled with prejudice, and condemn his ideas, while refusing to give him a candid hearing? The only right way would be to sit down as Christians, and investigate the position presented, in the light of God's word, which will reveal truth and unmask error. To ridicule his ideas would not weaken his position in the least if it were false, or strengthen your position if it were true.”

Really? Spurgeon taught two things that were always the foundation of White's philosophy. That salvation is by faith through Christ alone and that the scriptures are the foundation of all faith, doctrine and practice. Ohb and Spurgeon was a true Christian. Unlike you, he would not have had contempt for any individual.

Yes, I agree. God's glory is His character of self-sacrificing love. As we bear witness to that through our sharing of the gospel, and live it out in our lives in service to others, we fulfill our duty to love God and neighbour, thus fulfilling all the law.And what else to we carry with us to heaven but our characters thus formed by our self-sacrificing surrender to Christ?

to win the race was for Paul, a worldly pursuit...for us our goal is to complete the race.

As to why we are here....to bear witness to and show forth the glory of God.

Few Jews can answer, or have the courage to even investigate, the question at the end of this passage. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hat gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:4 Yowm, the Father and the Son are distinct personalities, yet one in all things aside from that. If the scripture, such as John 3:16 says God sent His only begotten Son, then I believe He had a Son to send. Matt.22:41-46 affirms this, as also does the parable in Matt. 21:33-46.

If they could they would understand it better than me.....

If you are suggesting that you have been made competent by God and thus a prophet....let me inform you that no "new"revelation EVER contradicts former revelations of truth. Mormonism, which seems to have shades of what you are suggesting.... believe that truth can change...that each new "prophet" or leader of the Mormon church can teach whatever he likes and it becomes truth...invalidating anything previous that has been put forth as "truth". Including scripture. At the risk of offending you...you are NOT a prophet ...what you are proposing contradicts scripture and is simply made up nonsense.

In Revelation 13 we have the following description of what Bible scholars for centuries have recognized as being a vivid revelation of the dreaded “Antichrist” , the leopard like beast, with feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. 1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. God describes this beast as a leopard. We are brought back to Daniel in this depiction, to chapter 7 where the Grecian empire is also described as a leopard. God is not haphazard with his prophetic pictures. There are depths to understand, and nuances to be seen that reveal the identity, and true nature of the powers thus depicted. This is why God gave so much information regarding Antichrist. He did not want us to be deceived, nor to misunderstand what He was warning us about. He gave such detail that there would be no mistake, no error on our part for our lives depend on our part to clearly understand the issues. Thus the beast of Revelation 13 is likened to the ancient Grecian empire. Remember, beasts are not individuals. They are political powers, nations, or empires. Beasts throughout the scripture are depicted in every prophecy without exception as being a political power or nation. Thus the Antichrist is not an individual, but a political power or civil or secular power, but having a religious face, for it enforces worship according to its own character and beliefs. The hallmark or character of Greece is eloquently described by Paul in his address to the Athenians on Mars Hill. Acts 17:16 ¶ Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. 18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) 22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. Idolatry, superstition, philosophy were the hallmarks of Grecian religious devotion. Thus these things according to the prophetic picture, would characterize the religion of the Antichrist. But the prophetic picture goes deeper than that. The leopard also has certain characteristics and natural qualities that would characterize and be seen in the Antichrist power. The leopards hunting instincts are subtly different from many cats. Firstly though, like all predators, the leopard preys on other beasts. Thus the Antichrist power would prey on other powers. (Remember the ‘little horn of Daniel 7that grew up to uproot 3 other horns?….another depiction of this same leaopard power) It would seek to devour other political entities…other nations. Revelation clearly reveals this. It has global ambitions. And all the world would wonder after the beast. Wonder in his sense is in admiration. The people of the world will love this power. They will say who can make war with her? The beast has so much apparent attractiveness that it is thought ridiculous to oppose it. Greece was just like this. Alexander the Great was renowned for his astute military prowess. And everywhere Greece went, their culture, their belief systems, their philosophies, were assimilated into the local culture and religious practice. Palestine was no exception, to the point where the Greek language was the chief language that the NT was written in, even after many decades of Roman influence. Even Christianity itself was not immune to accepting Greek philosophy and beliefs and co-mingling them with the truth thus distorting the gospel even to this day. The teachings of Plato and Aristotle are still accepted and taught by priests and pastors, both Catholic and Protestant, to this day. There is more to the leopard however. His hunting style is almost unique. He is a beast that rather than chasing his prey all over the countryside like other predators such as the cheetah, prefers to lie in wait and in hiding until his prey is within easy reach, will then stalk stealthily and strike suddenly, and with the least effort. The leopard is a watcher. An observer. Camouflaged well, it lies in hiding until its prey is an easy target. Jer 5:6 Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased. Ho 13:7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: The Antichrist therefore is just like that. An observer. Patience is the hallmark of her nature. He would far prefer to lie patiently in wait until circumstances allow for an easy take-over, than expend lots of energy too early and be discovered and lose his opportunity. This is precisely why Revelation 13 is so focused on deception, and why Jesus so often warned of false Christ, false prophets, of those who would deceive and lead away if possible even the ‘elect’. The Antichrist is therefore not an open enemy to Christianity. In fact, like Judas, the son of perdition, he would betray Christ with a kiss! He would not be an open enemy of Christ, but in accordance to the base meaning of the word ‘anti’ (see Strongs #473) would stand in the room of Christ, replacing Christ in the minds and hearts of the world. Therefore the Antichrist power is a counterfeit Christian power. A Christian power that has superstition, idolatry, philosophy, and patience as the hallmarks of her character. But also the ambition and desire for global dominion. Which brings me to the thrust of this post. For the leopard beast of Revelation 13 has been around for a long long time. While having inherited several characteristics of the Babylonian (Lion—-Daniel 7:4), Persian (bear—-Daniel 7:5), and Roman (terrible beast—-Danel 7:7,8) powers and being a composite of them, the beast coming out of the sea is in appearance most like Greece (leopard—Danel 7:6). And the leopard, after centuries of patiently waiting her opportunity for global dominion, is now astir. She, through deception, the vain philosophy of man, idolatry and superstition, has already captivated the minds and hearts of billions of people worldwide. She now sees her opportunity to deceive the rest of the world, for her prey she recognizes is now weak, leaderless, has already succumbed to division and is asleep and thus blind to her presence and true nature. The second beast of Revelation, the beast or power that leads the world to surrender to the leopard, is now ripe for the plucking. She does not recognize the danger as she once did. She no longer sees the leopard as an enemy, but as a friend. She believes the leopard has changed. That she no longer seeks political dominion, but rather, in her own words, seeks social justice and social equity. She has deceived the nations into believing that there is a fundamental change in her very nature. And all the world today wonders after her!!! The kings of the world send diplomats to her steps in order to receive council and advice. Even kings, presidents, and world rulers meet with her in friendliness and fawning admiration. But…. Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. No longer does the Protestant church teach nor even believe as the reformers at the cost of their lives, warned about. Today’s professed followers of Christ trample upon centuries of shed blood of martyrs who died at the hands of this evil. With their own blood they wrote across the pages of history that the Roman Catholic edifice, that counterfeit Christian church/state union that is awash with superstition, philosophy, man-made doctrines and dogmas, idolatry and blasphemy, is indeed the Antichrist of the Bible. The power that would make war with the saints, and to overcome them: the power that would have eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. The power that shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: the power that would reveal itself after a falling away as the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, (the church) shewing himself that he is God. The Protestant church of today is no longer Protestant. God’s watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. (Isa 56:10). It may well be that President Trump may personally have issues with the Pope. But He has surrounded himself with may Christian leaders who have no such issues...many of them in fact are strongly in favor of American Protestantism abandoning its historic roots and returning to mother...and this many denominations are doing. This is in fulfillment of Revelation; the return of the wayward harlot daughters to Mother, Babylon the Great...many Bible students/self titled 'scholars', see this, observe this taking place before their very own eyes, yet adamantly and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that it has any significance. Why? Because they are deceived by the servants of Antichrist herself and are looking to the middle east for all the answers to prophecy. Blind...ignorant...dumb....asleep. While searching the horizon for an imaginary enemy to come with guns blazing attacking Israel and Christianity, they ignorantly cosy up to the real villain who is leaning over the back fence pretending to be a good neighbor....even now are they being invited to a barbecue but what they fail to understand is that they are on the menu. The Leopard is hungry, on the prowl, no longer in hiding....yet still most fail to see the danger.

The most dire and horrendous judgement and sentence will be pronounced upon those who accept the mark. ..... If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revel. 14:9,10.... Such a sentence upon these who will clearly choose the commandments of man above the commandments of God will not be pronounced upon any who have no clear, intelligent, and conscious knowledge concerning what they are doing. Everyone , without exception, will know what the mark is...what it means...and what the inevitable consequences are. When they finally choose it, they will deliberately do so because they desire it above the principles of scripture that contradict it.

No...God did not plan for a third of those creatures He created, loved, and cherished, to spurn that love, misconstrue His motives, and think that they could set up a kingdom in opposition to His own. That my friend is patently ridiculous, despite His foreknowledge of what would happen. God created creatures, including you and me, with the capacity to love. But it is not love if we are hard-wired into some form of pre-determined program to do so. Free will and the power to choose to refuse that love must be an inherent feature of love. Otherwise love is not love. Its enforced servitude.

So if you find yourself in hades, then your judgement you may assume is a foregone conclusion? Therefore that judgement isn't an investigation into your guilt or innocence, but rather a carrying out of the sentence?

I have known Jesus since 1976. And I agree that there are no churches any more, ever since the 2nd century, that fully teach Biblical truth. Those truths the early church once had were slowly and deliberately eroded away by the Papal apostasy. It was pagan Rome that was the with-holder who stalled the establishment of the Papal antichrist. Every doctrinal error within the Papacy replaced Christ. And that is the root meaning of 'antichrist'. Instead of Christ...in the room of Christ. After his success in destroying Israel, Satan then focused his attention upon the church. Persecution didn’t work, but deception did. The nation of Israel, for so long Satan’s prime focus because it was the nation, or more specifically the tribe of Judah and even more specifically the family of David, that was to be the vehicle for the birth of the Messiah. Throughout the OT we see Satan’s attempts to wipe out the root, that the fruit could not result. Particularly we see this in his targeting of the family of David, and his constant temptations to false worship, knowing that God’s wrath and discipline would result in their destruction. The story of Solomon’s idolatry, the dividing of the nation, and the ensuing war between Rehoboam and Jereboam, are a glowing example. Yet God in His mercy preserved a remnant. There has always been a remnant that has been the recipients and keepers of the truth. Israel though, after rejecting Christ, were themselves rejected as God’s “chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15) Paul, among others, were now the chosen vessel. God’s people were no longer recognized as a nation, but as a church. So take a look at history. Was Satan aware of this change in paradigm? Absolutely! He knew very well who his most dangerous foe now was. It was those who now knew the truth of God’s love as revealed in the gospels. His attacks were directed against first, God’s people, and second, against God’s word. The former religious elite of the nation of Israel were Satan’s first agents in his attacks against the church. Then pagan Rome became his chief weapon, and after the failure of violence to quell the growth of the church, raised up a false Christian edifice, began to attack the scriptures and the peoples’ access to them, and introduced a raft of false doctrines, creeds, and superstitions that had a huge effect upon the church, and literally tens of thousands were seduced and beguiled by the sophistries of the Roman clergy that inherited the thrones of the Caesars. Among the lies and falsehoods were some that specifically replaced the very truths that marked the Way through the sanctuary…the Roman church set up another sanctuary (their own) in place of the true, and re-erected the veil which effectively cut off access to God. That veil was Rome’s man-made theories and superstitions which removed Christ as the sole Mediator between God and man and replaced Him with a system of semi-pagan lies and false doctrines. Indulgences replaced Christ’s sacrifice. Sprinkling was introduced without confession or repentance. The word of God was replaced by traditions. Prayer and Christ’s mediation were replaced by the confessional. Did you know that the confessional is a box divided by a curtain? Persecution, the use of force and state legislation replaced the light of the gospel. The law of God was cast down. The 2nd commandment was removed, the 10th commandment divided to make up the ten, the 4th commandment of the Sabbath changed to Sunday. One by one, the truths were re-established in God’s church, and those truths broadcast and taught throughout the world. In the 1300s John Wycliffe, ‘The Morning Star of the Reformation’, translated the scriptures into the common tongue. His followers and supporters were called the Lollards. In their day, they were considered a cult, and were persecuted relentlessly by the established church. In the 1400s Martin Luther restored the truth of salvation by faith only. He restored the concept of grace. Luther and his followers, the Lutherans, were considered a cult by those of his day, and were persecuted. In the 1500s John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterians, has a great burden for prayer. He railed against the rote prayers of the established church… In the day,Presbyterians were considered a cult; they were also persecuted, by the Lutherans. In the 1600s God raised up a man by the name of John Smith. Smith restored the truth of baptism by immersion. His followers were known as Baptists…in their day they were considered a cult, and were persecuted by the Lutherans and the Presbyterians. In the 1700s John Wesley founded the Methodists. John Wesley had a great burden for evangelism: for letting the light of the gospel to shine…he preached from one end of the country to another, and even to the United States. The Methodists were considered a cult and were persecuted by the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, and the Baptists. Not all of those reformers got everything right. Some of their followers made bad mistakes. True religious freedom wasn't found until Rhode Island was established in the new world. Today, there is only one group seriously preaching the whole gospel with the intent of fulfilling God's design in restoring that one final article of furniture in the sanctuary cast down and trampled upon by Rome. The ark of the covenant and the law enshrined within. Adventists may not get everything right. Some among them make mistakes. Sometimes terrible ones. Mistakes that are magnified in the minds of her enemies and broadcast on the internet with the intention of destroying all credibility. But there is something important that happens when you meet people and get to know people outside of your theological, moral, and cultural comfort zones. What we often discover is that the people that are the subjects of our prejudices and stereotyping are nothing like our uninformed mental pictures. From there it becomes more difficult to speak of their communities in a disparaging way because we now know someone who will be hurt by our ignorant mischaracterizations. Many, through chance meetings with less than desirable Adventist members use their poor testimony as evidence of widespread corruption. This was the practice of the enemy throughout the reformation. And it wont let up until Christ comes in glory. Many claim to have done "exhaustive" studies into Adventist teachings. They pick out difficult paragraphs from White's writings and use these as evidence of widespread apostate cultism. And everyone believes them without digging deeper. Without considering context. Without considering the times and culture in which they were written. And they don't bother, whether out of fear, prejudice, or laziness, to read anything else of her writings or books. Many forums refuse to even entertain any idea that Adventist teachings should be discussed. And many here rail against the moderators on this forum because they are "too lenient". Those complainers, while criticising JWs for refusing to read contrary literature to their own, would place the same restrictions here. Freedom of thought and expression and press is foreign territory and they would prefer to remain in a capsule without their little bubble being challenged. While I don't openly ram down every Adventist belief all over the forum as some have exaggeratingly suggested, I am not shy to defend doctrine. I will not defend my church. The church is made up of humans. But what my church teaches I will be happy to defend...because so many are in fact intent on attacking those teachings just as later reformers attacked the teachings of the former. My view is tha the law must be established before the reformation is over. When the sanctuary (the church) is spiritually rebuilt, then God's people, the bride of Christ, will be ready.

I was following Jesus when He led me to the SDA church. I appreciate that might not be a popular concept, but I was in Egypt (having vacated there after many years in the AOG) and Jesus rescued me from that dark place, and healed me and my family. But unlike most other Israelites who left that place, this time I didn't bypass Sinai. You cannot enter the promised land except you recognize the law. I do not mean that in the way nearly all non SDA people like to misinterpret it. They immediately go into defensive mode and exclaim "legalist" or "the law can't save you!". No adventist will ever teach that the law can save anyone. Yet Sinai and the God by Whose hand the law was written sits there, looming over the people of Israel with all its majesty and power, demanding a response. Israel got it wrong. They thought the law could save them! But God, throughout the OT constantly reminded them, and reminds us also, the just shall live by faith!! Yet the law is still there isn't it? What to do with it? That is the million dollar question. Attempting to form a doctrine that purports to teach the law is done away with or nailed to the cross is abject heresy and a nonsense. Nothing of that sort is taught anywhere in scripture. The law is righteousness. No-one, not even God, can do away with a law which is a reflection of His own character. But the answer is in scripture. And as Paul said, it is by faith that we fulfil the law. How? Through love. Romans 8:4; 13:8,10; Gal. 5:14;6:2; James 2:8. It is by faith that we receive anything from God. When we receive His Spirit and Jesus comes and abides in us, the hope of glory, we receive His love that we are then able to shed abroad to others, and in particular back to the One Who gave it. By loving Him supremely and others as ourselves, we fulfil every single requirement of the law by default. And if we examine ourselves, as Paul recommends, to see if we are still in the faith, the law is acknowledged, it must be considered, for sin, which must be expunged from the life, is transgression against the law. So when sin is discovered, and we are convicted of an area of our lives that is not "up to standard" so to speak, what to do? Knuckle down and obey better? NO! That is what the Israelites did, and constantly failed. Why? Because they sought to obey in their own strength; they sought righteousness, yes, but it was their own righteousness and they sought it not by faith. So what? Again, it must be by faith. Faith in the power and willingness of God to change these decrepit deceitful hearts of ours and transform us into the image of Christ. It was during one of these times when I was in such a state of surrender and willingness to accept whatever God sought to do in me, that He revealed to me His Sabbath. This was years before I joined the SDA church. I recognized the Sabbath as being a part of the very law that said don't steal or kill. Now one, perhaps you, may rightly point out that the Sabbath is different from other commandments because Sabbath keeping isn't something that a heart change can accomplish in the sense of God working in me by faith. Well, not directly no. But that doesn't make the 4th commandment go away. The question I asked myself at that time was, "do I accept God's authority in my life?" Is He really, truly, LORD? When I first came back to Him the first scripture that came to mind was "seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness"...He was challenging me...am I truly your LORD? If so, then I must obey the 4th commandment equally as well as any other. But how do I accomplish something like that without establishing my own righteousness or doing it in my own strength? Again, by the grace of God through faith. I was willing to obey...God then gave me the means by which to obey, and taught me the true meaning of Sabbath. Yes, there is most certainly a sense of Sabbath in resting in Christ. But scripture nowhere teaches that resting in Christ replaces resting on the day. Quite the opposite in fact. Only by resting on the day can one truly rest in the Lord of that day. It is only by fully accepting His authority to require obedience in all things that we may then find the strength to obey in all things. After all, every other commandment is a promise isn't it? Even more, a statement of creation power. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery.....and equally, if we are in a mind set to fully accept God's authority in our life, the 4th commandment also becomes creative power...remember to keep holy my Sabbath day....and becomes a memorial of creation, and redemption. My belonging to a denomination doesn't save me. Any denomination. My obedience doesn't save me. Not even Sabbath keeping. I am saved by grace through faith in the precious blood of Christ, Who died and rose again and is now recreating me in His image and likeness; restoring to me the original character humanity was destined for. Like Paul's ship, all denominations will founder and sink when they hit the rocks of Malta. Malta for me is a metaphor for the coming church/state global tyranny. (If you look at the history and the personnel of the Knights of Malta you will understand). But because the ship is destined to founder, that doesn't mean I jump ship now. Not yet. Though individuals may leave the ship...others have no heart to continue...some still struggle with sin and habitual weakness and addictions...God is still a God of mercy and grace and is well able to save those who refuse to bow to the commandments of men and to the Baal that they have chosen. My question to you is, by whose authority truly is the Sabbath issue set aside? Whose idea is it truly that Jesus replaces the day? Where is that in scripture? Where is it in scripture that Sunday replaces the Sabbath? Where is it in scripture that any day is now appropriate? By whose authority do you live by? For over 20 years I have been reading and hearing peoples excuses for not acknowledging the Sabbath. Pentecost was on Sunday...so what! Jesus rose on Sunday...so what! The disciples met on Sunday...really? The early church honored Sunday...did they? By whose authority are you truly led by? The church...or scripture? Men's teachings and assumptions, or the word of God?

I too am frustrated and quite frankly utterly perplexed at the changes in attitude within Protestant circles toward Rome. As if Rome has changed! I am especially frustrated at the changes within my own church who were once fearless in their proclamation of the reformation truth that the papacy is the Antichrist. Those reformers, from Wycliffe to Spurgeon, were not only in full agreement, they were right, and many of them died because of their truthful testimony, and now so many trample upon the blood they spilt because of that testimony by denying the very truths they proclaimed. Yes my friend, all denominations are infected with the disease, to some extent or another. Jesuits have infiltrated every University, Bible college, and seminary and have insidiously injected or enforced Roman teachings into the minds and hearts of Protestantism. The protestant churches never fully came out of the Roman Babylonian system, and never fully expunged themselves of her teachings. I would bring to your mind two in particular which Rome herself declares are the foundation doctrines of every other teaching and dogma of Rome and which Protestantism has inherited and show no sign of letting go of in the near future. Sunday sacredness and the trinity. If these two doctrines are the foundation of the Antichrist, what does that say of those two doctrines? Does evil fruit grow from a good tree?

There is no way I can respond positively to this. There is no way I would care to respond positively to this. There is no excuse or reason for sin in the church. Any church. If I could give a reason, I would be excusing it. Israel was guilty of the grossest of crimes more often than not throughout their existence. Temple prostitution...idolatry...adultery...incest...violence against the innocent...all manner of corruption. The Bible is starkly honest when it comes to the weakness of ancient Israel...yet unto them was given the oracles of God. We don't sit in judgement on Israel...we allowed Jesus to do that when He declared "your house is left unto you desolate." He said also that "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to another who will bring forth the fruits thereof". I hold absolutely no allusions that the same judgement could be pronounced upon any church or individual who doesn't live in accordance to God's expectations. Ellen White even rebuked her own church declaring it to be the precise fulfilment of Revelation 3:14-19. A last days church in dire need of repentance and cleansing. But know this, there are many among us who "sigh and cry for the abominations done amongst us". I do not know what church you belong to. I have no intention of enquiring either, and if you told me, I would not judge your decision to be a part of that church on account of the fact that there would be certain members who undoubtedly don't live up to their profession...nor would I expect you to leave that church on account of the reputation, justified or not, of others. Jesus didn't choose the righteous or the rich and famous, nor yet the intelligentsia of His time, nor even those who reputations were socially acceptable....He chose sinners. People like you and me. People who have addictions...mental issues....moral problems...just like Israel. And He taught them and gave them opportunity to repent and be healed. That many didn't doesn't lessen the value of the truths they were blessed with. So why would I continue in a church that is clearly less than perfect? Two reasons. First, because I will never in this life find another corporate body that is perfect. Second, because the basic fundamental teachings of my church are Biblically sound....despite the naysayers throughout Christendom. I will happily discuss SDA doctrine with anyone. Given the opportunity I can Biblically defend any of our doctrines....except the trinity. There is no other church I know of that teaches doctrine...from soteriology to eschatology...with such accuracy and general unity. If I left, where would I go?

When Christ walked the earth His holy and loving character was an open and constant rebuke to the selfishness and corruptions of the Jewish leaders. From the days of Cain godliness has excited opposition. Paul said that those who lived godly lives would suffer persecution. Thus it was with the early church. Those who sought to live lives in keeping with the dictates of scripture by love and purity of mind and action, were maligned, abused, tortured and killed. Those early Christians were indeed a peculiar people. The sinner's peace is disturbed by faith and blameless character when exhibited before them. So the question must be asked. Why is it that today our churches excite so little opposition? While there may be opposition from certain sections of society because church teachings oppose their practice such as the LGBTQ folk, in general terms what opposition we witness is not so much because of church character, but rather because we make ourselves so obnoxious by our self righteous and contradictory teaching and practice. I am reminded of the wisdom spoken of by Peter when he rightly declared that there is a great difference between suffering for righteousness sake, and suffering because we misbehave badly. I long for that day when the true image of Christ is openly apparent in the character of His followers. Not because this will incite opposition, which it will and does, but because then the coming of our blessed Savior shall be near at hand as the bride will have made herself ready.

Your remark Denis1209 that the possibility of this phenomenon being a form of demonic 'conditioning' has a lot of merit. For what purpose? The expectation is now being instilled in minds of all manner of faith paradigms of a coming 'messiah'. Every major faith has this expectation. So when the rest of the world is also expecting 'aliens', the arrival of Satan himself arriving as 'an angel of light' and impersonating as best he can the second coming of Christ, will not come as such a big surprise.

The mistake we make is in thinking that eternal life is unconditional. Even in heaven and in the new earth our eternal existence will be dependant always on our connection to Christ. Never will we have the very same life as God...self existent. And if it will be dependant upon our connection to Christ then, how much more is it dependant upon our connection to Christ now? Everyone should know this....that persistent sin unrepented of disconnects us eventually to Christ, and as branches we will then be ripped from the tree and burnt.

OSAS folk do not, I agree, think they can 'go out and do what they like'. However, what I think is the problem reflected in desertSW first post, that Christians do sin and betray one another is a fact that cannot be denied. And I think the reason is related to OSAS. It is, I believe, rooted in the idea that once saved the born again Christian cannot help but to sin. I have seen this idea repeatedly throughout Christian forums. That sin cannot be defeated. That God is therefore powerless to overcome. That the new life is still in some way locked into the old. The churches today are in such a mess because they are made up of people who have this defeatist attitude and therefore don't bother to resist temptation as resolutely as they should, or can, and therefore we witness the same weaknesses and sins that plague society as a whole. No wonder the world isn't interested in the church...they dont see the church as any different in lifestyle, practice, or behaviour as they experience where they are. If true full repentance, the complete forsaking of sin and wickedness, is no longer taught nor believed in the church, then we ought not be surprised that the state of things in the church is less than what we should expect of those who are meant to be following in Christ's footsteps.

Agree with all both previous previous posts. At 65 I still don't have as much as the smallest tattoo. And won't be getting one. And a chip ...I think that might be forced on every one eventually. But that won't affect the mind....that's where the biggest battle is fought and is Satan's most sought after prize.

I assume you are familiar with Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men... This is the false prophet and what you are witnessing (and what we have all been experiencing for sometime) I believe is a foretaste of a false pentecostalism that is to arise in a much more marked way in the near future....the fire from heaven I believe is a false spirit masquerading as pentecost power in apostate churches.

Hi. First, I agree with you re adultery. And so does my church. But I am not going to defend the sins and wrong attitudes of individuals within my church. That many individuals have mistaken views and practices within the church doesn't mean the church agrees with them. Nor do I. That so many tolerate and gloss over the sin is not right. That does not however provide me with an excuse or reason to leave. There are such sins in every denomination. Where would I go? And if I dug deep enough, likely a lot worse. But it isn't my work to dig into the private lives of individuals and use them as the basis for my decisions. It is what the church teaches as Bible truth. I have much I could and do protest against as far as behaviour and lifestyles among the people in my church. But it isn't my work to uproot tares. I will continue to uphold Bible truth...and if it offends those next to me then that is on them. Tolerating adultery among church members without counselling and clear instruction in what the scriptures teach is wrong...and wherever this is happening, even if the pastor himself is guilty, there needs to be open rebuke. God will have a holy church when He comes to take it home. I know what technology is aiming for. And I understand in a limited degree how it will be used to enforce compliance. Don't obey...we switch you off. Don't accept our religion...you don't buy or sell. And they have the means and capability to do it. Right now, Sunday observance is not the mark of the beast. It isn't as simple as that. E G White herself said there are many more genuine Christian believers in non adventist churches than there were in her own church. Being a Christian is about fully living up to the light one has received. Even in Catholicism there are people we will see in heaven, despite the teachings that they they currently believe in. This is because they are living according to what light they have received, and are constantly seeking new light. They are growing in their faith, as should everyone be. Not all of us are enlightened to every Bible truth. The reformation isn't over yet. So as far as Sunday is concerned, not everyone is fully cognisant of the ramifications of keeping that day. People on this forum are correct when they say every day should be a day of worship. What many do not understand is the true relation Christians have to the Sabbath. The time is coming, and I think you understand this friend, when all the world will be under the authority of a union of church and state. The state portion run by the UN, (believe it or not with impetus from the USA)the church portion by the Vatican. Incorporated within this union, will be apostate protestant churches, and non-Christian faiths such as Islam and Judaism and Buddhism etc. As well as all the Luciferian offshoots. The woman riding the beast in Revelation is church riding the state. The church holds the reins...the state gives its support through legislation and military power. Religious compliance...enforced worship according to the dictates of Rome. That is what we have to look forward to. It won't be a choice between receiving an RFID chip or not. It will be a choice between honouring the commandments of God as opposed to the commandments of men. Worshiping God according to the dictates of Babylon, or doing so according to the Bible. Revelation, in fact the entire Bible, is about worship...the battle between what Satan desires (worship of himself) and what God requires (worship of Him in Spirit and truth). The mark of the beast (the mark of Babylonian authority ...because the harlot is Babylonian in character and women in prophecy represent churches...and sun worship...the ancient mystery religion of Babylon) will be enforced. But it is not yet. Not all recognise the true import of these matters...but when the global union begins to be the dictatorial power that Revelation declares it will be and in fulfilment of prophecy establishes a world-wide apostate ecumenical religion that usurps every prerogative of Jesus, then the full power of Antichrist will be in effect. Again, the choice will be between Antichrist and the true Christ. The day of the Antichrist or the Lord's day, the Sabbath. My decision in the future will not be about me wanting to take a chip or not...use the latest technology or not. It will be about whether I am willing to suffer for Christ's sake. Am I willing to obey Christ when threatened with hunger and/or the accusations and belittling coming from family and friends. Am I willing to follow conscience when the official church teaches otherwise? I have no allusions as to the future. MY own church will I believe officially cave in. There will be no official churches in existence on the planet who do not or have not bowed to Baal. There will only be individuals who in various places and who formerly belonged to all manner of faith groups, who are "looking for and hasting unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 3:12 and who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". Revelation 14:12.

Of course I'm a seventh day Adventist. I thought everyone knew that? . Nothing I write on this board isn't from a personal SDA perspective. So I gotta ask, why ask? I don't see why it is particularly SDA oriented when all denominations have been trying to unsuccessfully pin the tail on the Antichrist donkey for decades. Yet it makes perfect sense to understand who antichrist is before attempting to identify the mark. After all, it is his mark yes? And if you read carefully, Revelation is all about worship, and by whose authority we worship, and the criteria which validates that worship. But the rfid chip is not worship. A chip is no different theologically speaking than an eye scan or a cheque. Its just a means of financial transacting. Thus all it can be would merely be the inducement for compliance. The issue in revelation is about authority and worship. Who we surrender to in our worship. Christ, or Satan's earthly representative and counterfeit...his proxy...the antichrist? Those are questions that need answers before we are able to ascertain the mark by which he demonstrates and enforces that authority.