hmbld

God changes our hearts all the time, outside the church. We do not need to have church to accomplish those changes. There are many other reasons to attend church. That is not a reason for me. Agreed. I think i am trying to decide if this statement in general covers most of the arguments people have to attend church. Kind of a blanket statement.

This sounds *somewhat* like the concept of "open theism", which, frankly, I don't know much about. One of it's main proponents is Pastor Greg Boyd, who is a senior pastor at a prominent church in my area. Boyd is a very brilliant and prolific author, and rather famous for being something of an iconoclast regarding dearly held Christian beliefs. I would say that he falls into the category of the 'Christian Left'. Lest I get too far afield, *I think* open theism holds that because of free will, God has limited omniscience, and can even be taken off guard. Here's Pastor Boyd in his own words: If I had to define “Open Theism” in one sentence, I would say that it as the view that the future is partly comprised of possibilities and is therefore known by God as partly comprised of possibilities. (By the way, I prefer to refer to this view as “the open view of the future,” since the most distinctive aspect of Open Theism is not its understanding of the nature of God, but its understanding of the nature of the future). To expound a bit on this definition, the open view of the future holds that God chose to create a cosmos that is populated with free agents – at least humans and angels (though some hold that there is a degree of freedom, however small, in all sentient beings). To have free will means that one has the ability to transition several possible courses of action into one actual course of action. This is precisely why Open Theists hold that the future is partly comprised of possibilities. While God can decide to pre-settle whatever aspects of the future he wishes, to the degree that he has given agents freedom, God has chosen to leave the future open, as a domain of possibilities, for agents to resolve with their free choices. This view obviously conflicts with the understanding of the future that has been espoused by classical theologians, for the traditional view is that God foreknows from all eternity the future exclusively as a domain of exhaustively definite facts. That sounds like he believes God is restrained by time. To have free will does not limit God to only knowing the past and present, for He knows the future as He is already there.

If God created all things, then He also created time, and i can see no way possible He is limited by His own creation?

Ok, I will admit here that in the past I have been judgmental, in that it bothered me if I noticed people were not paying attention, or seemed only interested in socializing, etc. Being God is a God of relationships, it seems to me that in order to focus on God, we must at the same time care about what God cares about, which is other people. Which has lead me to contemplate the answer: "We come to church because we believe God wants to change something in our hearts." I may have misunderstood your intent in your answer, as I recognized that in the past I would have had the same answer you gave. Interested in any comments about the reason given stating God wants to change something in our hearts?

Worship, fellowship, learning, motivation, encouragement, equipping the saints, it is a positive example to our families or friends, Luke 4:16 tells us Jesus did, "as was His custom", etc etc. There are many reasons given. I even found someone made a list of 99 reasons to attend church. There is an one answer given by someone I know, that I would like to hear your thoughts on, and it is this: "We come to church because we believe God wants to change something in our hearts."

Not true. I used to be a Marxist at one point before I became a Christian. I moved to the right because that's where I realised that the truth was. I'm well aware of where the centre is, and the civilised World has been moving more to the Left in recent decades. As it moves to the Left more decadence comes into the World. And if you stand in the center of the left, would you view yourself as in the center? Just wondering how people could agree on where the center is. I am guessing there is no agreement lol.

E-sword is great Fez! I learned of it here at Worthy.

Interesting. You start off with the question “So perfection is determined by what man says” and then you go to a man (Wesley) instead of the Bible

Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? So perfection is determined by what man says? I had been thinking what God considers perfection. Wikipedia, "Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean one no longer violates the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have a continuing need to pray for forgivenessand holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather wrote, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.”[5] Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent. As regarding the concept of sinless perfection, John Wesley himself did not use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use," Does any of this strike you as self centered?

Saudi Arabia has cash in hand. Some of the smaller OPEC nations are not in the position to weather lower prices for very long.

It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus.

That and it appears Saudi Arabia is tired of making cuts, only to have the rest of OPEC selling all they can, taking market share away from them. I think Saudi Arabia is doing what is in their best long term interest.

They have decided to continue to sell. If they cut their production it only benefits their competitors.

With the barrel pricing being so high in the last several years, US companies have drastically ramped up new oil well production, and the most recent wells are producing more. Companies have pressed for laws to change allowing us to sell crude oversees. We are now fully capable of producing all our own oil consumption. That is something I was taught in high school would never happen! Saudi Arabia relies on oil money so they are effectively shutting our oil boom down in addition to several other world interests.

That last sentence really made me wonder what you think would have happened if Jesus did not die on the cross? Good question. Don't have an answer. All I know is that Christ forgave sins before He died on the cross. Maybe it was because He was here and people were coming directly to Him. He can do what He wishes. But then why do you think He choose to die on the cross?

That last sentence really made me wonder what you think would have happened if Jesus did not die on the cross?

Beloved As I See It, A Man's Conscience Is A Gift From God They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. Romans 2:15 (ESV) The Holy Spirit Is THE Gift Of God In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) Not sure if I am understanding, conscience totally separate thing from the Holy Spirit? Or is what we perceive to be our conscience actually the Holy Spirit calling to us, whether we are saved or not saved?

lol, i just can't help but to wonder how many years after obama is out of office the same circle will continue.

Trust in Jesus, the One who is perfect, you can strive to be perfect in your own power, and never succeed. But by trusting Jesus, Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

Strong's Concordance ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: ekklésia Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah) Short Definition: an assembly, congregation, church Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers. Sam, by Strong's Concordance, wouldn't meeting here at this website qualify as an assembly, or church? Maybe not ideal as in face to face with fellow believers, but in some ways it seems better than knowing everyone in church is rushing to get home or have their day off.

I think the system is broke with special interest lobbyist, money buys votes, overall lack of any moral character. If ever a candidate kept his word and pushed for what would be good for this country, well, I don't believe that candidate would advance very far. The very basic notion of fiscal responsibility is absent from our government. How can we trust the government to make wise choices for our country if they refuse to even balance their (meaning our) checkbook? In response to the conservative candidate having a chance to be elected, well, I think that that depends on how you qualify someone as being conservative. Sure a conservative could be elected, as long as they play the game. Is it too much to ask for a candidate to openly state his/her views before being elected, and see after election that they kept their word? Steve brought up the demographics of this country has changed. I don't think much of the population would ever vote for a candidate that would look to the long term best interests of the nation. Meaning i don't think all the fault is our leaders. I think "we the people" feel our government has failed us so we continue to vote for the party we believe to be the lesser of two evils.

I keep thinking about when I first came to this website. I had no idea how it worked, but immediately I found one person had added me as a friend. Imagine, someone felt I was worthy to call me his friend! He couldn't possibly know me, what i am like, the struggles I have. He didn't wait to get to know me, he simply added me. Just a website, but it meant something to me. Now, I don't remember ever having a conversation with him, but I am always reading the scripture he posts. I've gotta say I love that man! Here's the thing, I realize I don't treat people like that. I keep my wall up. I love going to church, but its going to take a lot of growing to open myself up, and accept that I won't always like how people in church treat me. I think I want people in church to be perfect, and some seem to put that expectation on me. Until we finally go home, we are meant to grow our relationship with Jesus, and I don't think that can be done without learning to love each other, whether we find that perfect church or not. Maybe we are missing the point by trying to find the perfect church where we feel we fit in. Maybe the difficult church is actually what we need to learn more.

Adding in scripture from the rest of the bible proves it was indeed day one. Let scripture explain itself and you will see.

Yep, little by little. Gradual, and it will seem to be in your best interest.

True, names were not given with the data. Compile enough data about any given region and by process of elimination, computer programs, etc, names can be linked. Every computer has its own identity on the net. Seems to me, requiring citizens to sign up for something by law, and then sharing data collected, equals gossiping about its citizens, without their consent. Considering how much information is collected in various methods, it seems futile to fight for individual privacy. Increased selective persecution is coming. With all the data available, our government will feel compelled to fix problems before they occur. Innocent until proven guilty will not register.