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You haven't upset me! My distress is that I have no available means to evaluate the tongues and as you are in your personal time in The Lord and feel it to be an emotional increase of love toward God and a benefit... but based on feeling rather than Scripture you feel assured yet objectively you cannot aid me in the examination of edification through God's Word... I am leary of anything that is filtered through emotion without Scriptural foundational witness... You may ask me what harm could this be if I increase in God's love in my heart? Well the very simple of things it is a practice outside of Scriptural foundations where evaluations with the mind and heart is possible. However this is totally based on faith that it is from God due to the emotional benefit received when practiced... To many this may seem trivial but the only objective foundation I have is The Written Word and I just am not willing to let it go for an emotional encouragement... Thank you Deb for your gentle concern and love as I have treasured your response but as I have communicated my heart to you that you may know that I will remain guarded in this area... we as family 'Father' we (You and I) will continue so unto the resolve of this into eternity with our Lord .... Love, Steven This is an amazing post, Steven! This is pretty much my stance on the issue. I personally have no problems at all with my brothers and sisters speaking in tongues as they feel led of the Spirit to do so. I have a problem with the crowd who tries to enforce tongues on every believer, and say such things as it is a necessary sign for the reception of the Holy Spirit. Too many people attribute Spiritual life to feelings, or some kind of unnatural occurrence. Spiritualism is simply opposite of naturalism. We all (believers ) arein the Spirit by the mere fact that he indwells us, and there is no tarrying or waiting for the Spirit to indwell us. If you do not have the Spirit of God, you are not his. No in between, no limbo status, you are not apart of God's family. Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. In this age the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is always spoken of as a fact, and as a past event. The only command concerning the Spirit for the New Testament believer is being filled, and our Lord said that filling will come from the inside, not the outside. Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." Joh 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" Joh 7:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. Belief on the Glorified and risen Christ results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit apart from Tongues or any other sign gifts. The Holy Spirit is the seal that God has given us until he comes back to get us. This action places us in the body of Christ and unites us all. [end rant} Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Mama, if we could understand God, we would be equal with God in that sense. The Godhead (or Trinity) is clearly taught in scripture, we are just to accept it as fact. Trying to explain it in scientific or human terms usually ends in hilarity from both opponents, and proponents. Oneness cannot be possibly right, because scripture clearly distinguishes the Father and the Son, even before his incarnation our Lord was "God"and "with God". Three persons, one Being. Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- Gen 11:6 The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. Gen 11:7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."

Holy Joe, you do know this line of thinking is considered heresy by Orthodox Christianity? Maybe you are wording it wrong, but to say Christ entered Christ is an old, old heresy that taught Jesus did not become Messiah until the spirit of messiah entered into him. In other words, it says that Jesus of Nazareth and Messiah are two distinct and separate entities. That is completely false and not a true representation of Jesus Christ the God Man. Very God, Very Man. This would be for another thread though, this is a great thread by Charlesj, and from what I read (which is really long ) it is good.

If you can your hands on any books by these authors, you will be blessed tremendously. Even better, most of these guys have plenty of material online for free. Just google them. H.A. Ironside H.C.G Moule C.H. Mackintosh Horatius Bonar Ray Steadman J. Vernon McGee C.I. Scofield (yes, I said Scofield, do not be deterred by his slanderers. This man is one of the greatest bible teachers to ever live)

It's funny you mentioned the Pope, Joe. I actually thought about that scenario. How would I act if this man were in my presence. I'm pretty sure the pressure of society would be great, all the cameras on you and here is this revered man standing before you. I believe for his sake, and the other people who actually worship him as the vicar of Christ or God on earth, I would have to refuse to bow or kiss his hand. I know he is just a man, but the people who follow him, and maybe even he himself really believes he is God on earth. For that reason I would have to reject the Pope before all. I'm hoping I would even have the strength to deny him a handshake. It's easy to say what I would do online but in person is another whole story. I agree with another poster earlier, if it damages your conscious to bow to another person, then you should not do it. I believe that it is biblical to bow to dignitaries and the like.

It is just a proper show of respect to those whom God has set up in authority. You are not bowing to the Queen as if she is a deity, it is just a show of respect in her culture. Even though I am an American, and do not have anything restraining me to do so, I would give her a bow out of respect. The President would garner a very respectful handshake, since bowing is not in our culture. I do not see any disrespect towards God in that. In fact he encourages us to show respect like this. Rom 13:7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Now if she suggests she is a deity, or that I am to bow to her as if she is the final authority, then she has placed herself in the position of My Father in Heaven. No ruler on earth deserves that kind of respect.

I have to agree with Reformed. Although our views are not 100% compatible, the gist of what he is saying has to be the truth. You would have to throw away a great many verses in your Bibles to deny the Election of God, likewise, you would have to completely ignore verses that clearly lay out the responsibility of man. There is a reckoning of both that scripture clearly teaches. I think the one who desires to be saved should not question what is happening, but simply trust in the words of our Lord. "He that comes to me, I will certainly not cast out". Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Childeye, that verse from Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with the Judgement Seat of Christ. All believers will be judge according to what they have done while here on earth, whether good or bad. Rom 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Notice he is talking about fellow believers through out this entire passage, and he tells them that we all will stand before Christ for judgment. Not for salvation, but for rewards. The same thought is found in 1Cor 3 1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Applying Romans 9:19 to this is error, because the context of the quote you gave is given in the verses directly before it. It is given in respects to any argument that can arise in the light of God hardening his own creations. I know the intent of the scripture Romans 9:19-20 is in regards to God having mercy upon whom He will have mercy and not the white throne judgment. Nonetheless the question put forth in the post is infering the same type of question which has to do with God judging that which He made in Romans 9;19-20. So as to say if we did what He made us to do, what are we to be judged for? Is God judging Himself? Certainly the poster knows the white throne judgment is not about God judging Himself. The scripture I posted is therefore relevant to the thought conveyed in how the question is posed. lol ok this is my last post for a while as I do not want to dominate the thread with just my thoughts, but CE, you do not want to be apart of the White Throne Judgement. That is apart of the second death. You and I would have already been resurrected and will be with our Lord by the time that Judgement comes about. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. After the thousand year reign the rest of the dead will be brought back for what scripture calls, "the second death" which is eternal torment in the Lake of fire. Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. Connect that little word, "then" that begins verse 11 with the previous verses before it. The great white throne is not for us, because we are participants of the blessed first resurrection. Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. I'm not trying to pick on you my friend, but I am trying to show the importance of rightly handling scripture. We cannot just throw things out there like a pot of gumbo and leave it at that.

This statement goes completely against all that scripture has revealed about the natural man. I'm noticing a disturbing trend of you simply shrugging off clear scripture and injecting your own thoughts on things without any scriptural backing. Paul was very aware of his position in light of God's law, and he clearly says he wants to serve God. No unbeliever is ever said to be like this. The picture the Holy Spirit set forth is of one who is exhausted from fighting, he's at his whits end, and is coming to the realization that he can never be made perfect by keeping the Law. We live our lives in the power of The Holy Spirit, and not in attempting to keep the Law of Moses. It is like trying to wash your face with a mirror. He was trying to use it for a purpose it was not given for. Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. You have seriously misapplied this passage in saying that "someone is not aware of this". This does serious violence to the scripture. This is true, it is the same sin, but sin through the law becomes exceedingly sinful. The Law is the strength of sin, it is designed to drive men into the merciful arms of Christ, because it is the tool used to show man his sinfulness. Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; Praise God! I'm glad you can at least see that I am not arguing what you think I am arguing, and really, it is only problematic in your own interpretation of free will. You have given a lot of your own understanding of free will, but a very minimal amount of clear scripture to back any of your positions. This is a great example of the difficulty we are having in our little discussion. You make a statement that is clearly contrary to what scripture says, I retort with scripture that is clear as to what actually happen, and then you just write off what I present, and continue on in a theory of what you think Adam thought or felt. This is not an honest way to reason in the scriptures my friend. I am not accusing you of being dishonest, but maybe you do not see that is exactly what you are doing. There is not one jot, or one tittle to support this theory of yours. Scripture never says satan intimidated Adam, it doesn't even say he deceived Adam. You are operating strictly off of assumptions. Provide scripture that says Adam was intimidated by satan, or be silent where scripture is silent. We are not to preach free will, or predestination, we are to preach Christ, and him crucified. We are discussing free will as Christians, but that is not what we are to present in giving the Gospel. Read 1 Corinthians 15 for reference. lol would you say Paul and the Apostles presented truth properly? There is much more to it than that my friend. 2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. 2Ti 4:15 Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. 2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. I'm sorry to say, more men will reject clear, "presented truth" than receive it. We are in the age of Apostasy and it is only going to get worse, no matter how well you present it.

Childeye, that verse from Romans 9 has absolutely nothing to do with the Judgement Seat of Christ. All believers will be judge according to what they have done while here on earth, whether good or bad. Rom 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Notice he is talking about fellow believers through out this entire passage, and he tells them that we all will stand before Christ for judgment. Not for salvation, but for rewards. The same thought is found in 1Cor 3 1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Applying Romans 9:19 to this is error, because the context of the quote you gave is given in the verses directly before it. It is given in respects to any argument that can arise in the light of God hardening his own creations.

This is just arguing in circles with yourself, because this is not at all what I believe free will to be from scripture. You not choosing to be born or made flesh, has nothing to do with your ability to choose in face of God's light of truth. Even men of old had truth revealed to them by God himself, and he held them accountable for rejecting and retarding that truth. scripture clearly says God made the truth of him evident to them. Direct revelation or light. Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. There is no 'depends". You alone will answer for what you done. Even if you count "holding others responsible", it is still you, and scripture teaches us how to behave in accord with others. Frankly, this is one of many arguments you and I are having that is completely silly, and useless. It can only lead to more arguing. In our further discussions, I'll skip over the likes of arguing whether we have a responsibility to Christ when it comes to sin. That interpretation cannot possibly be right, for Paul before his conversion considered himself above all the other Pharisees. He said as concerning the Law of Moses, he saw himself "blameless" Php 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. Act 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. Only when Paul came to see the true nature of the Law, did he see just how far from the mark he was. This is the account of a converted man, because only believers have two natures. Only believers have a war going on inside them. 1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Gal 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. Dear fellow believer, all of those are good things. I believe it is the duty of every child of God to do those things, but they have absolutely nothing to do with you being Crucified with Christ. You have already been crucified with our Lord when you placed your faith in him. When you believed the Gospel. Our crucifixion with Christ is always spoken of in past tense and is not contingent on your good works. Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Surely we are to put to death the deeds of the body, but our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ is a past tense event. We are now in him, bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh. No need to argue this point because even in your own experience, if you would be completely honest before God and your fellow man, you know there are times when you deliberately sin, and consider the option to hurt someone, maybe verbally, or some kind of way. You take the verse in 1John way out of context. It speaks of the practice of sin, not the act of sin. "doeth" means practice as a lifestyle. No believer practices sin as a lifestyle. But we know from that very same book that a person is a liar if he says he has no sin. Let's rightly divide scripture and not run off in tangents dear friend. 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. How about let's not blame anything except what God blames. Scripture says God is not counting men's tresspasses against them. The sin that sends a soul to hell is unbelief. Making God a liar and not believing the record that God gave of his Son. That is what I believe. Anything else is just what others may think I believe. That is not what the passages say, that is your own exegesis. The passage clearly say, they knew God, and that God has shown them the truth. No need for me to re-quote, but I think maybe you need to re-read it and compare it to your interpretation. They chose it in light of God's revealed truth. Whatever else you are arguing is not what I am arguing. They chose to change God's image in direct rebellion to his revealed light. Nothing more to add, nothing less. lol I see I have to be a lot more precise with my answers as not to be misconstrued, or to be found arguing in circles against something I do not believe myself.

Childeye, do you believe every man has come to this conclusion? You believe the everyday joe sinner, or one who has not been regenerated actually says he finds a law that when he would do good, evil is present with me? No my fried, only the light of God in a person's life can reveal this truth. Scripture paints an entirely different picture of unregenerate man, and it is not anywhere near what Paul was struggling with in the 7th chapter of Romans. Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, Scripture says unregenerate man is "hostile" towards God. The 7th of Romans cannot possibly be applied to an unsaved man or woman. This person "delights in the law of God". No unregenerate is ever portrayed in that manner by the scriptures. You are misapplying these scriptures my friend. This makes the discussion difficult because it leads us off on wild tangents, having to go back and put the scriptures in their proper applications. First of all, Cain was a sinful man, but applying the 7th of Romans to his condition is flawed. For Paul says the Law of Moses is what incited the law of sin in his members. The Law of Moses is what gave him the knowledge of his utter sinfulness. Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Cain as a natural man could not have that kind of revelation about his own sinfulness. In fact, he was self righteous in that he brought the fruit of his own labors. There are even people today who actually believe they are keeping the Law of Moses. They have never been born again, and have never seen the Law in it's true wrath and Holiness. "Jesus enforced it in all of it's purity at the Sermon on the mount. "you have heard by them of old...but I say if you even look at a woman to lust, you have already committed Adultery". This is not applicable to Cain's situation, as the Law was years away from being administered to man. Please Childeye, let's be reasonable. Where has scripture ever said Adam was intimidated by satan? In fact it is said that Eve was deceived, not Adam. Adam's transgression was listening to his wife. Let's be careful to not add words to scripture, and let scripture speak for itself. That will keep us all from error. 1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. No one is saved apart from this. The Just shall live by faith. Hopefully I have not given the impression that I believe differently. Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; I'm suspecting we are both arguing in circles on this point. My entire argument for free will is not that man can jump up and say, "hmm, today I think I might just try to do right by God and clean up my act". No my friend, I do not believe that at all. I think somewhere during the course of this little debate, my true beliefs on the matter has gotten side tracked by my inability to convey my thoughts clearly through the written word, and maybe you skipping over a lot of things that I have typed due to the length of my posts. Either way, my position has always been that God reaches out to man, and man can receive or reject the truth that God gives him. We have the historical evidence all through scripture, including the accounts of Adam , and Cain, and on through Holy scripture. Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." Correct, sin is slavery, but when God reveals his truth or light then sin is no longer an excuse. That is the judgement, that the great emancipator, The Lord Jesus Christ has come, men can no longer hide behind the excuse of Sin. If you continue on in it, you are not merely a slave, for slaves do not usually love their masters, you are in love with darkness, and desire to stay in it. Our Lord's Holy work is for all men, but it is special for those of us who believe because we actually partake of it's blessings, and we become free from the slavery of sin. Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Read what I said again my friend. I did not say satan had no bearing on the deception of mankind, or tempting men to disrespect God, or anything of the nature. I said the scripture you quoted had no bearing on our discussion. This is just your own thoughts on the matter and you do not have any scriptural backing what so ever. The giving the person up is not that they do not have a will, Childeye, satan is granted permission to test and try saints at God's behest. Even in the midst of testing a person is still admonished to hold up under the testing, or he can buckle under it. It's not saying there is some mystical giving a person to satan. No, saints are admonished to put some people ot of the congregation, and if they wont leave, they are to shun them, all the while still treating them as brothers. 1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 1Co 5:2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 2Th 3:15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. The excommunication will either lead the brother to repentance, or satan will rend him to pieces much like he did Job. Yet, that man shall still be saved. This is very interesting, and sounds exactly like the argument of free will that I have been trying to argue this whole time. lol I'm noticing a lot of "I's" in there. This is the free will that I believe. In light of truth, a man can make a decision for life, or death.(in rejecting it)

Reformed, I thank you for this post brother. A post like this goes a long way in humbling me. Sometimes much learning can lead to a big head, and we can forget what is the most important things, which is brotherly love. I know I tend to drive home points like a bull in a china shop, and that can simply be from pride at times and not for the glory of Christ. I have been blessed tremendously by your posts and look forward to reading more from you. Be encouraged man of God.

The Bible does not say "God gave them over to the lusts of the flesh" The Bible says Jehovah God made coats of skins for them. He covered their nakedness and obviously instructed them in the right way to approach him after the fall, this is reasoned out by Abel knowing what type of offering to bring God.(SCRIPTURE SAYS HE DID IT BY FAITH) In other words, God still made a way for them to have fellowship with him. Where do you see anywhere that this denies free will, if anything it affirms it because Cain brought the fruit of his own labor. God rejected it, but gave him a way to amend it. Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them. I agree with you, but you are mixing too many subjects and getting ahead of yourself. You say men could not choose life, yet we have record after record of men siding with Jehovah God all through the Old Testament. As faulty, and sinful as they were, men still called upon the name of the Lord before our Lord was manifest to finally give the death blow to sin. Lot is called a righteous man, and yet he had babies by his own daughters. Interestingly enough, our Lord's own bloodline is full of Prostitutes, and people who were not model citizens, yet they called upon the name of the Lord. To say that men could not choose life is simply untrue. However, Christ is the true life, and he is the very righteousness that God requires. God long suffered the sins of the past, and now that Christ has came, he did indeed fulfill the Law, and has set us free from it through death with him. He has brought us to God by his very own blood. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. No it's not. Scripture says this: Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. God does not tempt with evil. There is no question that it is of your own lust that sin comes about. You either resist it in the power of the Holy Spirit, or you succumb to it. Choice. This is correct, the new man, the new nature fully desires to serve God, and scripture says it cannot sin. As a Christian you and I have two distinct natures. One from natural posterity, and one from God himself. That still does not change the fact that the responsibility of sin falls directly on us. Eph 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; Praise God for this powerful statement, but you must use it in it's proper context, for Paul still says: Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? He would not have said this if we did not clearly have a choice to do so of our own accord. In the end, it is still your will, only the flesh is not a complete representation of the real you. Morality is not the defining factor for free will. God's will is the only will that matters, but man has a will and God honors it. If he continues on apart from Christ, he will perish, if he believes on Christ, he will live. Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. He that believes will be saved, he that actively continues in unbelief is condemned already. This verse clearly sets forth a man or woman who is resisting the truth of their own selves. You'll have to explain this quote more in depth, because frankly, that is a very heavy charge to lay on a fellow brother in Christ. You are saying that I am blaming God almighty because of a truth, it is not his will for you to sin? Is this serious? God's express will for his children is that we sin not. 1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 1Co 15:34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. Even though we do still sin, it is not God's will. When we sin it is of our own lusts and will. It's very simple, what's not simple is your charge of me that I am somehow blaming God by saying that. They didn't choose a reprobate mind, they chose to not retain God in their Knowledge, they chose to change his image into corruptible things, the judgement was giving them up to a depraved mind. Let's look at it in context. The scripture clearly says they knew the truth of God, and even knew God, but they changed his true image to something false. If you start at verse 18 and read the entire chapter you will gain a deeper understanding. These are not men who are ignorant of truth Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. They are said to have actually known God.Of which, Cain is a perfect example. Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Before these people were turned over to reprobate minds, they themselves denied God, and chose to suppress the truth. free will. If you doubt what I am saying, read the passage again for yourself, only read more than verses 22 and 23. Get the whole context my friend.

Then wouldn't that make Cains situation even more so a choice than Adam's? Further more, Cain was in the very presence of God himself. You are taking a clear text that says God himself, not a prophet, not a go between, God. He is the one that gave each man his choice. Unless you're willing to say God didn't really mean they had a choice, shouldn't you conform your theology to fit the word, instead of the other way around? By your reasoning, because Adam made the wrong choice, he could not do anything but that. Even though we both know he was considered innocent at the time. Both men ended up making the wrong choice, so using morality as the difference is pretty much meaningless. Man having the ability to choose is not resting on morality. Are you prepared to say God did not really mean all that he said to Cain? His offer of doing the right thing was not a legit offer? Your argument in light of scripture is full of too many holes, my friend. Sin mastered Adam too, yet you do not deny that he had free will. Again, you must then come to the conclusion that God's words to Cain were not genuine if we take your own thoughts to their logical conclusion. It would be much easier to agree with clear scripture, than to argue in circles from your own opinion. I have no problem with you not regarding it as free will, just know however, that, that does not make your position true. "Thwarted God" are your own words and argument, because I have never said anything of the such. You are arguing from your own position of denying man free will because he is sinful. My friend...it's so much to say just in this small quote. You are jumping about scripture that has no bearing on what we are discussing. I mean, if you are going to use satan, he is the originator of the "self will" . He spread that same disease to mankind. The very definition of sin is "I will" instead "Thy Will". However, what in the world does that have to do with discrediting free will? Even the verse you paraphrased concerning giving a person over to the devil, in order for his flesh (not his sinful nature, for this is talking about a literal destruction of the body, read it in context) to be destroyed. Compare it to 1 Corinthians 11:30-32. "Many of you Die (sleep)" 1Co 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. This makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but please phrase this statement so I can understand it clearly. Especially this line " I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed".

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, God has predestined those who are His own to become like His Son. Praise God, FA! It really is that simple. Predestination is a word that only we as believers can cherish and enjoy. To place that on the unsaved in the negative sense has zero scriptural backing.

I think I sufficiently answered your first arguments in my last post, so I'll start from here. I agree with you as to the QUALITY of man's free will, but it is still the ability to reject or choose (when God the Holy Spirit calls upon the heart) life. You and others are confusing free will with quality. Surely the results of man's own will will eventually end in devastation and catastrophe. This is the problem when these type of "debates" are not controlled. I did not give those scriptures to prove that man had free will, I gave them to answer your charge that only the Pharisees ran from the light of Christ. I was trying to show that all men outside of Christ, is in darkness, because only he is the true Light. Question, when you sin, is it God that makes you sin? If it is not God, are you saying satan is making you sin? Or, are you willing to say that you sin because sin is self will, which is the fact that you were drawn away of your OWN lusts at that time, and you failed God. Which is it? James says: Jas 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? Jas 4:2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. Have you ever succumbed to "fleshly lust"? If so, why? Was it God's will, or yours? If you answer yours, then it must be asserted that you acted of your own will at that time, and not God's, because our Lord has broken the power of sin over us, yet there are times when we still fail. I am not condemning you or anyone else, because I am a fellow brother in Christ, and I go through the exact same trials everyone you go through. Now if you say you do not sin, or fail God, then we have another whole discussion. lol I have an "angst' against any doctrine that is false. I'm not fighting for free will, I am hopefully showing those who deny it, the truth of it. I mean, I really should not have to, because their own lives display the truth of this. This is a long thread, and we have all made many posts in this thread, so to single out one issue and claim that "I'm fighting for free will" is a bit dishonest on your part. I am "fighting for truth", and the very truth of the matter, and in keeping consistent with the thread topic is, nowhere in scripture is man ever said to be predestined to hell, or over looked, or simply left in sin, without God giving him the light of truth to make a choice. Now if you charge me with having an angst against Calvinism because of that, then so be it. I have an angst against any teaching that misrepresents God. Funny enough about Calvinism, all of my favorite teachers are 5 point Calvinist, James White, Al Mohler, John Gill..etc, etc. Can you quote me as having said this. I would love to see it for myself, and I will repent before all of my brothers and sisters. I do not believe that I and I do not teach that. That is a false charge my friend. Again, I gave you those verses in response to you saying, "well what about men who murders children, etc, etc. " They chose those conditions because they hardened their hearts, and gave themselves over to uncleanness. God then brought judgement and relinquished them to their own desires. Read the verses again. Also please read them in context as I give them. You must read your questions and then my response, then you will not be confused in the reasons why I gave them. They did chose it, because God had the truth for them to recieve, but they would not. Only then, does God enact judgement upon them. A dreadful darkening of their minds to believe lies for the express purpose that they may be doomed to an eternity of torment and destruction from the presence of God. 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Ok, you readily admitted that Adam had free will, correct? How is the choice Adam was given by God almighty, any different than the choice God gave his son Cain? The format is exactly the same. In both cases sin was waiting at the door. Gen 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Compared to: Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Sounds to me like you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of, trying to prove your doctrinal thoughts in the face of clear scripture. If he did not have a choice, then it would have read something like this. "Cain, I do not respect your offering, therefore you have sinned". End verse. It does not read that way, in fact, it is very rich with the Grace of Jehovah God, in that he gave Cain ample opportunity to do right. Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? This is arguing in circles. In other words, you have now created a position that I have not taken, and made it an argument. Surely from all the posts I have made in this thread, even to you, you would know that I do not believe man can hear the Gospel apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm saying the sinner has always had a choice, in that he can remain in his sinful ways, or accept the rescuing hand of God. God will not force him to do so. Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." Eze 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Again, this is another circular argument. No doubt our Lord condemned the practice of the hypocritical Pharisees, but to limit the passage I quoted from John to just Pharisees is simply error. Are you prepared to say that only the Pharisees ran from the light of Christ? If we are using religious sects, what about the Sadducee's? No my friend, scripture says "we all have gone astray" Every man, woman, boy, and girl, has turned their own way. Not just the Pharisee or religious sects. Thank God, or Lord had mercy on anyone who called on his name, even Pharisees who believed on him. Isa 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

CE, you are proposing a lot without scriptural back up. All through the Bible we have God setting before man, choices. To his own people, to kings, to peasants, you cannot make a statement like, " I propose that it's not free will..." and then not back it up, then when I present clear scripture, you either ignore it or write it off. That is very disappointing. Look at the language God uses to man throughout the Bible: Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Notice the language , Jehovah God uses, "if" meaning conditional. You do well, this will happen, if you do not do well, this will happen. Clearly a choice given to the devil's son, Cain. You can explain it away all you like my friend, it is crystal clear. That is not what scripture calls the "grieving of the Spirit", though. If you look at the scripture in context it means allowing all kinds of coarse and bitter conversations, wrath and anger to take hold in one's life. These are things that grieve the Holy Spirit in the believer. Again my friend, you are sharing your own personal beliefs with nary a scripture to support them. They sound good, but they are wrong in light of the word of God. Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. I'm not just implying it, I'm dogmatically affirming it. All sin is self will. It does not come from God, it comes from the corrupt nature. If you did not have a free will you would be completely sinless. Our God could easily make you a robot who would only do all that he bid, but that is not what he does. He imparts a new nature to us, and we desire our will to conform completely to his will. At times we fail, and it is due to our own self will. Again, Childeye, you make statements that are directly contrary to revealed scripture, yet you state them as facts. This is what scripture says: Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. Joh 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. This is the whole world, not just Pharisees. Though they are included, but Jesus himself is the ONLY source of Life and Light. There is none righteous, not the religious Jew, nor the godless gentile. Only righteousness is found in Christ. He is the light of every man, and every man has gone his own way. Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." You serve him willingly, but that does not mean he is forcing you. Those are only your own feelings on the matter. Where is your support from scripture that says God "forces" you. No my friend, under the new covenant, God "beseeches us", He compels us in light of his loving kindness toward us. His mercy and care for us is used as the moving factor for our obedience to him, never force. Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. The main point being, God the Holy Spirit was striving with them. How can you resist something unless it is working against you. This completely destroys any Calvinist notion that God does not reveal truth to the non elect, and that he simply passes over some and leaves them to their doom. I'm hoping you understand that was my point, and I agree with you, it was something passed down from their father's, self will, ie sin. Let's look at this abused quote in context. God said he hated Esau, he is God, and he can do just as he pleases. Now look at the over all context of the chapter. Esau being hated was not the theme of the chapter, it was used to illustrate a truth, Pharaoh being hardened is not the theme, it was only an illustration to drive home a specific truth, Which is God hardening those to whom he committed his laws to, who he had slayed gentile armies for, who he brought his beloved Son through, and has now granted repentance to the Gentiles, who did not will to seek after him, who were in darkness and for the most part knew nothing about the God of Israel. Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." The hated(in contrast to the loved Jacob) gentile nations represented by Esau, is not "beloved". God is showing mercy to the gentiles by hardening his chosen people. I know I'm beating this particular horse into the ground, but if you take your Bible, and read more than just the account of Pharaoh, and Esau, read Romans 9 thru 11 and take special notice that it is about Israel and the bringing in of the Gentiles by grace. So, because there are crazy people in the world, this is indicative of man not having free will? There are men who have given themselves over to sin at a much greater degree than other. Paul said some men had a "seared conscious" , some men are likened to brute beast who need to be put down. It is the effects of the fall, and it is only going to get worse. Notice however, that it is they who harden their hearts, then God gives them up. 1Ti 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. Makes no difference, because as long as the Holy Spirit is in the world, he will convict it of Sin, and he will continue to push the Gospel of Christ into the world.

Adding the phrase "at his leisure" is very misleading in regards to what I believe about free will. Man cannot respond to God until God gives him ears to hear (Through the Holy Spirit), where I differ from Calvinist is that, 1. I believe God gives the light of truth to all men (No matter what age or dispensation) 2. I believe that man can reject or receive this truth once it's revealed. Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Act 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." Notice the language. "You Judge YOURSELVES unworthy of eternal life", "You are are always RESISTING the Holy Spirit", "Do not Harden YOUR Heart". Strong language used by the Holy Spirit himself, and I believe clearly indicates that a man can of his own will, hear the Spirit, and resist him. According to Calvinistic teaching, a man cannot resist God's call. If the Holy Spirit only talks to the elect, who is he talking to here? I think it is clear enough. It's fine for you to disagree CE, but support it by scripture. If it was not Esau's own free will, what else was it? Scripture made no such distinction when it gave the account. In fact, once Esau saw that he had lost if for good, he cried like a baby. Even though he was a wicked man, sold under sin (Like all men) he saw the worth of his birth right when it was much too late. Also keep in mind, God did not choose Jacob because he was so much better than Esau, so morality had absolutely nothing to do with fee choice in this instance. Our Lord said men loved darkness which is why they ran from the light. In other words, they are without excuse now. Great light is here, and you would rather wallow in your sins. You have a choice, but you choose to remain in your sin. Not at all, for from the very beginning God has made man with a free will. God gave our progenitor Adam rule over all his works, and placed choices before him. God has never forced us to serve him. Even now, the Holy Spirit gently sways us (As believers), he never forces us to do anything. Daily you have a choice to follow the lead of the Spirit, or follow the lead of the flesh. You can grieve the Holy Spirit or you can not grieve him. Man freely coming to God and worshiping him is a blessing, and it is what God intended from the very beginning.

Hello childseye. What does the term "free will as an absolute" mean? Please give it's definition by scripture if you don't mind. I don't think I have ever made such a statement (I don't even know what it means lol) , I simply said Esau (like all men) have a free will. Nowhere in scripture is it said that God "made Esau sell his birthright", or "God hardened Esau". That is reading something into the text that is simply not there. It says "God hated Esau". Scripture says Esau sold his birth right for a morsel of food. No doubt his Father had revealed to him the importance of being the firstborn Son, but he (of his own will) did not have respect to it.

I think a great illustration of God's foreknowledge and Predetermining, and man's own will, would be the account of Jacob and Esau. Scripture says before the children even came out of the womb, God made this statement: Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." The twins had not done anything good or bad, yet our God made the bold statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated". In other words, through his foreknowledge God loved Jacob from eternities past, and hated Esau from eternities past. Before either one had done anything. God chose Jacob of his own will, and grace. The interesting thing about this is, what the Holy Spirit actually revealed about Esau. First, we know from scripture that God was speaking in much deeper terms than simply the two boys (though he was talking about them personally, he was demonstrating his foreknowledge) He was revealing the two nations as well. Here we have corporate and personal election. Gen 25:23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger." God was not looking on the situation like man would, he already saw two distinct NATIONS from these two boys. (Foreknowledge). We do not read where God hated Esau until the book of Malachi: Mal 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; Mal 1:3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness." The Holy Spirit reveals that Esau was indeed a "profane and immoral person (fornicator)". He of his own accord spurned his privilege of birth right. As the Oldest he should have had the privilege of Messiah coming through his line, but he had no respect for it and sold it to his brother for a morsel of food. He of his own will, spurned the blessing. God in his infinite wisdom, knew this before hand, and rightly chose Jacob, well before he or Esau had done anything. This is the biblical definition of foreknowledge. Heb 12:16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. Heb 12:17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears. God decreed that the blessing would come through Jacob, this could never change because the Lord had said it, but, Esau proved him right by being what he was, which was a vessel of wrath. He was no innocent man, hated by God. He was a godless man who had no respect for the incredible blessing that by right should have come through him. God's sovereignty and man's own will. This is a mystery that can never be fully understood by us, but scripture clearly teaches it.

There are three offices stated in 1 Timothy, Bishop/Overseer, Elder and Deacon, which are different from each other. They are as follows: Bishop/Overseer ἐπισκοπή episkopē investigation, inspection, visitationthat act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sadoversightoverseership, office, charge, the office of an elderthe overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church Elder πρεσβύτερος presbyteros elder, of age,the elder of two peopleadvanced in life, an elder, a seniorforefathersa term of rank or officeamong the Jewsmembers of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justiceamong the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeablythe twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God Deacon διάκονος diakonos one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, ministerthe servant of a kinga deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their usea waiter, one who serves food and drink Hope this helps. This is a great post, Onelight, but where in scripture is an Elder differentiated from that of a Bishop? I know the word Elder can refer to one that is older, but it is also used in the sense of an office as well, and it is used interchangeably with Bishop in the different Bible versions. In other words I'm asking, isn't their only the offices of Bishop and deacons? I'll patiently wait for your response. Also, please show me by scripture so I can study this further.

This is where your advice of not using isolated scripture should really come in to play, brother. The argument used by Paul in illustrating God hardening Pharaoh is still in connection with what he is talking about concerning the apparent failure of God's chosen people Israel and the bringing in of the Godless, unloved, gentiles. When I said show me a precedence of God hardening a person, I was hoping you would understand that I meant in relation to the Gospel. I could easily go back to the old testament and show passage where God has dominated men to his glory. The scripture you cite not only shows God hardened Pharaoh, but he said he placed him in power for this express purpose. Pharaoh was a vessel of dishonor who God long suffered and endured. In other words, this was not an innocent man that God just took and dominated, this was a wicked tyrant whom God used as a potter would clay. He used this vessel of dishonor to show his vessels of mercy just how far he would go for them. In other words, Pharaoh's will was already set against God, God just pushed his will much further than he would have gone on his own. Our God said: Exo 3:19 "But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. In other words, Pharaoh was already hardened in his own will. God took that pitiful will gave him righteous demands that he knew the already arrogant and godless Pharaoh would not meet. God used this very thing to show his mighty works to his people. Before God even hardened his heart these were Pharaoh's words: Exo 5:2 But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go." Then God said: Exo 7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. We have a picture of the will of man, and the sovereign will of God. This man was already a wicked God rejecting man, God simply took this lump of clay, placed him in a seat of power and them summarily dismantled him for all to see and behold his majesty. Keeping in mind that Pharaoh's will was against God before he was hardened by God. This answers to 2 Thess 2:10,11 Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, This is correct, Paul counted himself, a Israelite who had faith in Christ as a part of the "remnant" of believing Jews. They are fellow members of the Church of Christ along with us Gentiles. We are all one in Christ. Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. That does not, however, discount the restoration of God's natural posterity as Paul reveals in the same chapter of Romans( vs 26, and 27). Our Lord will yet sit on the literal throne of his father David and reign over Israel with the Church as his joint heirs and Bride. (lol this topic is for another discussion) No brother, you will have to turn loose of what you think I believe about individual and corporate election. Let me set the record straight so I will not be falsely charged in thinking I do not believe in individual election. Salvation is a personal thing, it is an individual belief on the Son of God. No one can believe for me. Jesus Christ is my personal savior. If you do not understand what I mean by corporate election, and I am having a hard time making you see what I mean, please do not assume that I do not believe in personal salvation, or God electing an individual for his eternal glory. I never said any such thing, neither do I believe any such thing. I simply reject the idea of a person predestined to hell. It is nowhere taught in scripture, and especially not in Calvinist pet scriptures like Romans 9. Scripture must be taken as a whole and rightly divided, not taking one scripture and then building entire doctrines behind it. Your own words. Things that scripture is silent on, we should be silent on. It is wrangling about things that we do not know, we are not God so we do not know all that God has done. It's best to leave silent what God left silent. The eternal fate of another human being is not something that finite creatures should know unless God has expressly revealed this 1Co 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, God never leaves himself without a winess. "God has revealed it to them..they are without excuse" Again, you go to far my friend, you reach into things that you really have no idea what you are talking about. God has plainly said in his word, that it is satan who blinds men's minds. He had even us at one time. God never tempts men with evil. Their would be nothing on earth as evil as with holding life from a man. God has never done that at anytime or any age. Show me a wicked man in the Bible, and I'll show you a man that God warned before he brought Judgement.

I'm not denying the election of God for the Gentiles, I'm reaffirming it. I'm showing that the blindness talked about in the Gospels was done for a specific purpose, and to a specific people as thus saith the scripture. That God was going to bring in the Gentiles was always foretold in the old Testament. Isa 11:10 Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. The mystery was, God was going to harden his own chosen people so that the Gentiles could be brought in. Israel was not allowed to see Messiah in his suffering, they expected Messiah in his glory. That was the great stumbling stone for them. God in his wise counsel planned it this way. Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! You see, God did not just harden them just for the sake of hardening them. He did for his express pupose, and that purpose was so that you(if you are a non Israelite) and I may receive Messiah. This is the subject of Romans chapter 9-11. All the illustrations, the great saying of "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, is not some made up doctrine that says God elects men and women to the exclusion of the rest. He has never left even sinful man without the light of truth. Even the savages that have perished without hearing the Gospel is said to have had the truth revealed to them by God. Man today is not blinded by the hand of God, he rejects God of his own will and accord. That was not the time of the Gentiles. Surely God dealt with a few Gentiles under the Old Testament, but I gave you scripture to show that it was Prophesied that God would bring the Gentiles into the fold. During those times God said many gentiles behaved by nature as if they knew the Law. God has his plan lawed out flawlessly. I think James said it best in the book of Acts: Act 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. Act 15:14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. Act 15:15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, Act 15:16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, Act 15:17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' Act 15:18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. This all goes back to the book of Romans chapters 9-11. God is taking out a people from the Gentiles in this age right now, after these things he will return and restore literal Israel (corporate). Compare with this: Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." I have so much more to say, but I really hope you read what I wrote prayerfully. I know it can be annoying to read incredibly long posts, so I'll end this one here and touch on your other points in another post.