Marilyn C

Hi Spock, Here are my thoughts (again) on the 2 wars, which I believe are at either end of the Tribulation. The two Wars ............ Ez. 38 & 39. Russian Federation.........................................Rev. 16: 14. World War. (Armageddon -> Valley of Jehoshaphat) Who initiates................God brings Rosh etc to Israel`s Mountains...........................God brings all the nations to valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2) Who comes against Israel....Russia, Federation, Iran, Libya & Ethiopia.................All Nations. (Rev. 16: 14) Who is the Leader.......The Russian Leader (Ez. 38: 7)..........................................The Anti-Christ. (Rev. 19: 19) What happens.............5/6ths of army wiped out on mountains. (Ez. 39: 2 KJ)........All the armies of the world are destroyed. (Rev. 19: 20 & 21) What happens after....Israel takes 7 years to burn the weapons............................Christ connects with Israel, judges the nations, then the Millennium. I think that is quite clear as to the differences. Different groups, different places they go to, different way God deals with them, different outcome. The difficulty people have is because they do not understand Prophetic perspective. Thus they read Ez. 38: 19 & 20 which is related to the God`s dealing with the Nations at Armageddon & think therefore it is the battle of Armageddon. But no. God tells us about the Russian war, with all the differences & then goes straight to dealing with the nations at the end. This is quite common in scripture as I pointed out before look at Isa. 61: 2 where God tells us that (Christ) will `proclaim the favourable year of our God, & the day of vengeance of our God.` Well that never happened when Christ came, only the first part of the sentence. (Luke 4: 18 & 19) Are you then going to say well all of that can only mean when Christ comes at Armageddon? No. For we know the first part of the sentence was fulfilled, - then there is a time gap - then the last part. We do this in our everyday language - condense what we are doing - & tell others the beginning & the jump straight to the end. Hope that helps, Spock. Remember to compare the `differences,` & then try & explain those away. A bit more studying ay?

There is also the more subtle approach - saying that you are backslidden if you don`t go to `church.` By `church` they are meaning the public meeting run by an organisation, whereas the true `Church,` is the Body of Christ. We gather together in many ways, 2 or 3, prayer & fellowship etc & all the more as we see the Day approaching.

Hi Spock, That is not exactly what I am seeing. The ancient Empires of the Medes & Persians were against Alexander of the Greeks. That is history & God told Daniel ahead of time who would be the victor - Greece. Then Daniel was told to go to the `appointed time`. That phrase is used by God to show a specific time - end of the Gentile`s Rule. Now I see that you (& others) continually try & fit past empires & the present situation. Why do you do that? Past Empires have come & gone, the land is still there but those ruling powers have been judged by God. What we see now are today`s powers all seeking for prominence. So that is why I will soon start a thread in relation to what the actual situation is today & see what God`s word says about that.

A good read Paradox.

I know as Christ`s Holy Spirit leads us into all the truth of Christ, His character & His purposes then the Body of Christ will know what its purpose is & why & when the Lord is coming for them.

Hi Spock, Regarding `Rosh,` Russian people call themselves this. Also in Joel 2: 20 you will see this `northern army,` - from the northern quarters, far north. This is the same war as Ezekiel talks about. Just reading Argosy`s comments & I would point out that Joel 2 war is not Armageddon but the Russian war as verse 2: 30 shows that more events have to happen before Armageddon in Ch. 3.

Hi rollinTHUNDER, Sorry that I`m not clear. I do believe in the `rapture,` the gathering together unto Him. I said - `Thus when the Body has come to full maturity in Christ & not `tossed to & fro,` then it will be taken to its eternal setting.` People are given the idea that the `rapture,` `catching away,` is an escape, but God`s word says that - `the building up of the Body of Christ;` is till `we all attain to the unity of the faith (what we believe) & of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man...ff` (Eph. 4: 12 - 16) The Body of Christ will be raptured, caught away, gathered together & taken to its eternal setting in glory for the purpose it is being made for. This will happen before the tribulation which is God`s final period of chastisement for Israel (Dan. 70th week) & to judge the nations.

Hi Spock, Well now Daniel 8. Yes you found the key - `And he (the angel) said, "behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the APPOINTED TIME of the end." (Dan. 8: 19) So there are the Medes & Persians having a conflict with Greece in the Middle East, then the angel tells Daniel to jump, as it were to the appointed time (by God) at the end. Thus today we are seeing the world`s focus come full circle back to the Middle East. And as the angel unfolded, there will arise this `king,` leader skilled in intrigue who will destroy mighty men & the holy people. (Israel - Armageddon)

Hi Spock. Good try, but I would like to bring you attention to some important points - Psalm 83. 1 O God, do not be silent! Do not ignore us! Do not be inactive, O God! 2 For look, your enemies are making a commotion; those who hate you are hostile. 3 They carefully plot against your people, and make plans to harm the ones you cherish. 4 They say, "Come on, let's annihilate them so they are no longer a nation! Then the name of Israel will be remembered no more." 5 Yes, they devise a unified strategy; they form an alliance against you. This alliance was the first time it had ever happened, plus they were nearly quoting scripture it what their plans were - `to wipe Israel out as a nation.` 6 It includes the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, 7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre. 8 Even Assyria has allied with them, lending its strength to the descendants of Lot. (Selah) These are the exact nations that came against Israel. They had hundreds of thousands of soldiers, with superior equipment etc. 9 Do to them as you did to Midian - as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the Kishon River! 10 They were destroyed at Endor; their corpses were like manure on the ground. 11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, and all their rulers like Zebah and Zalmunna, 12 who said, "Let's take over the pastures of God!" 13 O my God, make them like dead thistles, like dead weeds blown away by the wind! 14 Like the fire that burns down the forest, or the flames that consume the mountainsides, 15 chase them with your gale winds, and terrify them with your windstorm. 16 Cover their faces with shame, so they might seek you, O LORD. This is exactly what the outcome was - shame, humiliation, as it was a huge army overcome by a very small group with inferior equipment, tanks etc. The whole world saw that little Israel overcame the large alliance of the surrounding nations armies. 17 May they be humiliated and continually terrified! May they die in shame! 18 Then they will know that you alone are the LORD, the sovereign king over all the earth. This is obviously for the future but in the context of the prophetic Psalm the Holy Spirit was giving their ultimate end . (prophetic perspective) Now Israel did not wipe out the inner circle & that is not what is written there. Also the large territory that Israel gained during that war is exactly what is being disputed & divided up. This is what God says He will judge the nations for in the valley of Jehoshaphat (when the world armies came down from Armageddon, north of Israel) `I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of my people & My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations & they have DIVIDED UP MY LAND.` (Joel 3: 2) Israel is not going to get more land from those around. So it has to be Ps. 83 as from then on it has been a `dividing up` of God`s land. Israel just wants peace with its neighbours (though of course it has to protect itself) Thus it will continually seek `peace treaties,` & continually give over more & more land. The world will continually show Israel as the aggressor but that is not the case.

Hi Spock, Here are my thoughts on the 2 wars, which I believe are at either end of the Tribulation. The two Wars ............ Ez. 38 & 39. Russian Federation.........................................Rev. 16: 14. World War. (Armageddon -> Valley of Jehoshaphat) Who initiates................God brings Rosh etc to Israel`s Mountains...........................God brings all the nations to valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2) Who comes against Israel....Russia, Federation, Iran, Libya & Ethiopia.................All Nations. (Rev. 16: 14) Who is the Leader.......The Russian Leader.............................................................The Anti-Christ. What happens.............5/6ths of army wiped out on mountains. (Ez. 39: 2 KJ)........All the armies of the world are destroyed. (Rev. 19: 20 & 21) What happens after....Israel takes 7 years to burn the weapons............................Christ connects with Israel, judges the nations, then the Millennium. I think that is quite clear as to the differences.

Hi Spock, I changed my picture as someone thought the angel looked like Moroni. Now you had some good thoughts as to the final `beast.` Since we are far off the topic of this thread I thought I would start one in relation to the forming of the Global Government. And there we can try some scenarios & see how they line up with what is actually taking place. It would fit in well with your other thread - the 2 wars which lead up to & finish the Global Government. `drooling,` yes, well...very pleased you are doing you homework & really checking out different views . Great to chat with you are you think through & try things on for size.

Hi rollinTHUNDER, I changed my picture as someone thought the angel was too much like Moroni. Now as to the timing of the Fall feasts. Well I see that they are the completion of God`s dealing with Israel & not to do with the Body of Christ which has a different purpose. Thus when the Body of Christ has come to full maturity in Christ & not `tossed to & fro,` then it will be taken to its eternal setting. Then Christ will be addressing the other purposes - Israel & the nations - through Daniel`s 70th week. That is the short answer. I hope that is clearer.

Hi Spock, I hear what you are saying about a BIG war. Yet you need to remember that the Anti-Christ, the Assyrian, the King of the North, has a power base of that region - Iraq, Syria & Jordan - Assyria. Syria will not be destroyed but included in the ISIS`s Islamic State. Those that do get destroyed are Russia & its Federation. Thus as you said it will be the catalyst to bring in the Anti-Christ. I can see this discussion will be developed in your latest thread. Good point to open up - the difference between the two wars.

Hi Spock, So it is the last bit that you do not see fulfilled in the 6 day war, is it? Well we know that all mankind will not acknowledge our Lord until He comes in Power & great glory, thus that last verse is a prophetic view to the end. This is what I spoke about somewhere else as to prophetic perspective. Remember Isa. 61: 2 & Luke 4: 19. Jesus stopped right in the middle of the sentence. The last part of that sentence has to wait for over 2000 years to be fulfilled - Prophetic perspective - putting 2 events close together in writing but in actuality they are a long way apart. Hope that makes Ps. 83 & the 6 day war clearer. Marilyn.

Very good Floatingaxe, You did well with that comparison. I would also say that at our gathering unto Him only the Body of Christ will see Him, whereas at the second coming of Christ to the earth every eye will see HIm. ENOCH2010, The words `first resurrection,` refers to the type of resurrection - as to life, while the second `type` of resurrection refers to being resurrected to judgment at the great white throne. That is why some in the Body of Christ will resurrected to life, & others changed & caught up. Then later on those who were beheaded in the tribulation for the word of God have part in the first (type of) resurrection - to life. Hope that helps, Marilyn.

Hi rollinTHUNDER, I see what you mean as in pre-church as those feasts & Christ`s fulfilment of them were pre-church However, I used the word `establishment` in relation to the founding & also including the building of the Body of Christ to maturity. Now you are asking about my beliefs concerning the Rapture. Do you just want the short version or a bit longer with the `why` re: the purpose of God. I must say it is so good to have a chat rollinTHUNDER without all the side issues & continual controversy when people are really not listening to each other. Bless you brother, even if we don`t agree you are one who does listen & relate well.

Hi Argosy, I think this discussion is on 2 threads but I`ll post it here. Thank you again for your detailed reply on your understanding. Now you said in #57 `sticking with the theme of Rome being iron,`.... This is precisely the point of contention that I have with this view & here are my reasons. In Dan. 2 we know that God has given us an overview of the World Rulers in the form of the Great Image. God shows ahead of time who will Rule & the strength of their power. King Neb. had absolute power, King Darius had less - laws, etc a lessoning of power till the last, the divided kingdom. Thus we have the parts of the Image referring to the Ruler (& his kingdom) & we are also given additional information with regard to their power - the metals -gold, silver, etc. Thus the Body part -Head is King Neb. of Babylon & his power is absolute signified by the metal, Gold. The Body part - Chest & Arms are King Darius of the Medes & Persians & his power was less, signified by the metal, Silver. (`inferior Kingdom ...` Dan.2: 39) The Body part - Belly & thighs are Alexander of the Greeks & his power was less, signified by the metal, Bronze. The Body part - Legs are Caesar of the Romans & his power was signified by the metal, Iron - strong. (Dan.2; 4) So we can see that the Body parts are the Rulers while the metals signify their power. Thus the `Legs are Rome,` while the `Iron,` is strength. This error of `Rome = Iron` should be `Rome = Legs,` `Iron = strength.` The second error I see in discerning Daniel 2 is that some people think that the 2 legs are the 2 parts of Rome after it was judged by God. This cannot be the case as every Ruler of the Image is shown as the Ruler & not after it has fallen. (ie Not ruling the world) Babylon, or the Medes & Persians or Greece are not shown after their Empire has fallen. The 4 parts of the Greecian Empire for example is not shown as 4 thighs, so to just make the 2 legs as the parts of Rome AFTER it was ruling is not consistent. I know this will be hard for some people to understand, but if we are desiring to `handle accurately,` God`s word then we need to not just look superficially or what seems obvious to us but actually read what God says with correct English. (ie. Rome = Legs, + Iron = strength.) Thus the `feet & toes,` have yet to be discussed. But I will wait for any comments you may have.

Oh you are too too kind rollinTHUNDER, The `Feast of unleavened bread,` I tend to put with the Passover. But you are so right & keep us on track. Great discussion bro. Oh just read the next part of your reply, (I must admit I so skim read & obviously I miss some. (Whoops) So you didn`t get my beliefs on how these fall feasts will be fulfilled. 1. I said the first 3 were necessary for the establishment of the Body of Christ, (pre-trib) 2. while the next 3 require the fulfilment for Christ`s Rulership through Israel in the Millennium Kingdom. (trib -> Mill) Hope that is clearer.

Hi Arogosy, I will certainly point out any specific verse I would like you to look at. But I don`t seem to see any scriptures apart from man`s interpretation of God`s symbols. Can you show me where are those scriptures, (not symbols)?

Hi rollinTHUNDER, I agree with a lot you have said concerning the feasts. I have just a short summary here of what I believe. THE FEASTS The 7 Feasts given to Israel are a complete prophetic overview of God`s dealings & purposes. Each one presents Christ in His person & work. (1. Feast of Passover - Christ is Redeemer. 2. Feast of Fruit Fruits - Christ is Resurrection & Life. 3. Feasts of Weeks (Pentecost) - Christ is Regenerator.) The fulfilment of these three was necessary for the establishment of the Body of Christ while the next three require the fulfilment for Christ`s Rulership through Israel in the Millennium Kingdom. (4. Feast of Trumpets. 5. The Day of Atonement. 6. Feast of Tabernacles) (7. Sabbath feast) These Feasts were rehearsals of God`s appointed times that Christ would fulfil. The Feast of Trumpets - was a rehearsal for the time when Israel would humble themselves as a nation & repent from their National rebellion against God. This would lead them into the Day of Atonement. The Day of Atonement - This is the time when Christ would come & give `atonement` & cleansing for the nation of Israel - the land, the people & the holy place. God told Moses of this event - `He will avenge the blood of His servants, & He will render vengeance on His adversaries, He will ATONE for HIS LAND & HIS PEOPLE.` (Deut. 32: 43) And Daniel was told by God the time of this event - `Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people & your holy city, to finish the transgression, to seal up sin, to make ATONEMENT for iniquity (Israel`s national rebellion)......` (Dan. 9: 24) The enactment of this Atonement was when the High Priest would take the censor filled with fire & incense into the Holy of Holies with the blood from the sacrificial altar & sprinkle it before the mercy seat on the ark, seeking the Lord for Israel National forgiveness. (Lev. 16: 12 - 17 17: 11) Thus we see Christ represented in angelic form, standing at the golden altar with the golden censor. (Rev. 8: 3) The Day of Atonement is about to begin but first Israel needs to seek repentance. Thus the 7 Trumpets - complete & final call to Israel`s repentance - goes out through out the tribulation. (Rev. 8: 6 ff) Finally the Lord Himself, the great High Priest & King of Kings comes forth in Power & great glory to deliver & cleanse Israel - its people, its land & its Holy Place. (Rev. 19: 11) He also brings judgment upon His enemies. The great Day of Atonement has arrived & the feast of Tabernacles can soon begin. The time of rejoicing throughout the Millennium for God will `dwell/Tabernacle` with His people. (Zech. 14: 16 ff)

Hi Argosy, I read your interpretation of God`s Great Image. Now what scriptures (other than more symbols) do you have to back up this theory? Looking forward to reading them as it seems everyone thinks this is right. For such a popular view it must have undeniable scriptures that say Rome is the Final Ruler of today. It must be so obvious but I seem to be missing it. Now I have just read your thoughts on this matter over in the `5th beast,` #57 so I do not need for you to write those. I would like though for scriptures to show God`s interpretation of His word, His symbols. To me it is the right way to accurately handle God`s word by putting all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together to see what God says & not for us to just have our opinions of it. I have asked different ones concerning this topic but as yet I have not received any scriptures saying it is Rome (not just using symbols). I hope you can bring forth some relevant scriptures. Thank you.

Hi Spock, The Anti-Christ would have to be Roman!!!!!! So let me get this straight & I might ad lib also. Because you are a friendly chap (we all agree) you would like me to agree that your use of God`s symbols are the right interpretation. So I`m to look for the most ferocious, blood curdling, (even worse than the Islamic terrorists - beheading & crucifying) groups from Rome that you think will rise & take over the world. Have I got that correct? I think not my dear friend. But we will see.

Hi Spock, Now you must remember that I was never taught this view so I am trying to see how from scripture you think that Rome is the `feet & toes,` & the 4th beast. You haven`t proven it to me. You are just connecting one symbol to another symbol & saying it is such & such. We can all do that. However to prove your view you need to have scriptures that are not symbolic to undergird what you are saying. Just talking symbols `feet & toes, `4th beast,` well we can all have different versions of that. But what does God say. Prove your case with God`s word explaining those symbols.

Hi Spock, I can see your thinking. However you are mixing the `beasts & parts of the Great Image` without scriptural proof. Again where are the scriptures to prove that the Roman Empire is the `feet & toes kingdom?`

Hi Argosy, Thank you for answering my question (#173) re: people believing that the Anti-Christ will be Jewish. (#176) You said - `Dan. 11 says he controls the `glorious land.` Israel is his region so he certainly wont be attacking Israel during Armageddon...` Now have you ever considered these thoughts & scriptures - Yes I agree that in Daniel 11 the Anti-Christ is in the `glorious land.` (after his capital Babylon has been destroyed) Israel is his region, as you said but certainly not the Jewish people. Thus he gathers all nations to Armageddon. (Rev. 16: 13 - 16) That is north of Israel & has been called `earth`s greatest natural battle field, with sufficient room for the entire armies of the world to manoeuvre.` It is also the gateway to Israel with the intersection of 3 continents, Europe, Asia & Africa, & has the large port of Haifa at its western end. Once the armies of the world have gathered there at Armageddon then they will set out in formation from the Mediterranean sea right across to the Jordan valley. It will sweep through the valley of Jezreel & then on through Samaria conquering & subduing every town & village, exterminating all Israelis enroute. `It shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds (of the people of Israel) in it will be cut off & die, but one third shall be left in it.` (Zech. 13: 8 & 9) For the people of Israel it will be a terrible time. They will flee to the mountains & cry out to God. (Luke 21: 21) Finally this mighty world army will encompass the city of Jerusalem which will eventually be overwhelmed, conquered & looted. `But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ` (Luke 21: 20 - 22) Israel as a nation will be broken & crushed. The armies of all the nations of the world will be marshalled in victory formation outside Jerusalem. What a triumph! The whole world`s armies of at least 300 million against little Israel! What an overkill.