Donibm

... interesting.

The Day of the Lord ... is SUNDAY. How do I know? Well ... because the Early Church Fathers (50AD - 300AD) clearly wrote about it. lol Now, it also has other meaning, such as the Lords return, even His Judgment. But if you are talking about the gathering of the Saints, it's certainly Sunday. I can provide 3-4 quotes from the Early Church writings, but I cannot copy and paste from my home PC. The Scriptures elude to more of "first day" and "eight day" (which is Sunday).

To the original post (for some reason, my "Quote" is not quoting. Here is a little bit of HISTORY surrounding that verse, and I hope it will help most of you understand the passage a little better. 1) First, you must go back to the Temple in Jerusalem. The Temple, as you know, was built with the Holy of Holies. Only the High Priest could enter. Then there was the Inner Courts. Only the priests and the Jewish MEN could be there. Then there was the Outer Court. This is where the Gentiles and the women would be. So, considering this, it is easy to understand that, being so far away, women were not as well-versed in the Scripture or the deeper understandings of man. 2) Fast forward to the Church However, when Grace came, women are now allowed into the Throne Room of Prayer (no longer that physical Temple). So, women were in Church and because they didn't have the knowledge that the men had, they were blutting things out, like 'Honey! What is he talking about?" or "What does that mean dear" (you get what I'm trying to say). Ultimately, this was causing a DISTURBANCE, and it obviously agitated Paul. So, Paul told them to SIT IN SILENCE and ASK THEIR QUESTIONS AT HOME. OK. That part is easy to understand. The position of power is a little harder to explain. a) Really, there is only one point - THE GARDEN OF EDEN. Eve was Adams HELP MATE. Made for him, yes, but his equal. But because of her tempting him to eat the fruit, she was "demoted" and he was made master. This is the will of God from then until He fulfills all things. Let no man tell you that this is not so. If it were not so, then the earth will no longer resist us trying to grow crops, and the woman will no longer have pain in child birth, and the snake will grow legs to walk or wings to fly. THESE ARE OUR PUNISHMENTS. The woman is subject to the man. It is part of her punishment. But, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end, and in the end, man will not be her head, but God will be the head of all His people. So, for now, do as you must. Know your role and both man and woman ... and seek the coming of our Lord. So, in this regard, I share Pauls message. I suffer no woman to rule over me. She cannot raise of lead a man. She can "manage assets" ... such as managers do. But she cannot think as a man, and a man following a woman is a rare thing (not talking about following orders or doing what your boss says). This does not mean there are not some powerful women of God. There are. Powerful in their supporting roles.

@ Izzel Aha! I see what you are saying. HOWEVER ... there is a problem with your presentation. You see, in the Bible, there are no " " marks. But the beginning of verse 27, it is properly rendered in English with quotations marks, such as, "And He shall rule them...broken to shivers." Why? Because IT IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM PSALMS 2. And I've already established the Psalms 2 is a TRIUNE passage. It is about the MESSIAH. It is NOT about the saints. Well, it is ... but they the quote from Psalms 2 is about the Messiah, not the saints. You have mistakenly yoked the two parts together. Easy to do with the absence of the quotation marks. Again, it is a quote that concerning Jesus, not an attribute of the saints. It is ALL about Jesus. Jesus will rule with complete authority. Those who rebel will be broken to pieces (who can stand against God?) And the message to Thyateria is that, eventhough she was greaved with all the immorality around her, her CHAMPION (Jesus) has already won. And through Jesus, they have won. But it is still about the Messiah. ... I do hope that clarifies it.

@ Kingdom. Yes ... but why consider them further? Are they on 7 mountains? Are they 2-fold (woman AND beast)? Are they made drunk with the blood of the saints? 666 is also the number of a MAN, and who might that be in the EU? They have no history. Where is their link to Babylon? Rightfully DIVIDE the Word of Truth. See what the clues say. Who do ALL the clues point to? :-)

@ Cobalt, I wasn't actually responding "to" Oakwood. I was delivering my own thoughts, but I wasn't responding to him. 2) Christians of what time? Where are "Christians" in the Book of Revelation once the Tribulation has begun? All emphases is on Israel, not the Church. Further, it is incorrect for you to suggest that only that generation would know. Revelation itself says "HERE IS WISDOM. LET HIM THAT HATH UNDERSTANDING..." That says nothing about only that generation would understand. It is saying that whomever is given the wisdom to know, will know. That is why no one reading this can accuse me of taking just this one verse and running with it. Instead, I've taken all clues and shown how they ALL point to the same thing. RIGHTFULLY DIVIDE THE WORD 3) You also have erred suggesting that its a conclusion that I want. The first time I studied Revelation, it was 1991 ... and I was "brand new" in that year. I've read Revelation at least 6 times since, and studied it in equal portions. You CANNOT just make it point to whomever you want. You mentioned Islam. Go ahead and try to make the clues point to Islam. Try to make them point to America. Try to make them point to the UN or anything else you want. If you think that is possible, I'd like to see how that is accomplished. But no, I've not fabricated or inserted a delusion or a lie. History itself is on my side ... as is what we clearly can see today. 4) Lastly, I am seeing something that is apparently common in these threads. I see Scriptures applied out of context. You cannot take a Scripture that is talking about FALSE MESSIAHS (plural, such as your Jim Jones, David Koresh, H.I.M., Sun Yong Moons ... and this other wacko who thinks he is Jesus and married to Mary) and apply that to THEE Antichrist of the Tribulation. You are taking what is attributed to something completely different and applying it to a wrong context. If it were at all possible concerns false religions, false doctrines, false christs ... not THEE Antichrist. The antichrist will convince the world of a lie. And I'm curious. Since you think Christians will be around, and since it appears that you think that it's as simple as just "not taking the mark" ... let me ask you a few questions. a) Have you ever fasted before? A real fast? Have you never experienced what HUNGER PAINS feel like - those sharp, needle like feelings in the stomach? But ... you think you will refuse to take the Mark and just let yourself starve to death? b) Since you cannot buy or sell, are you ready to go withouth toothpaste, deodorant, loose all your possessions (cause you can't keep your apt or home if you don't make PAYMENTS)? Are you dependant on medications to starve off illnesses ... so you'll just let your body suffer? c) Are you married? Kids? So, you'll just be willing to not only starve yourself and endure the slow, gruesome pain of death, but watch your spouse and child die also? d) For get about buying new clothes, or calling Joe Blow (you aren't PAYING you phone bill, remember?) And don't forget the food crises where even a loaf of bread is costing a days wage. With things THAT expensive, who do you think is going to give you any handouts? e) And since it is the WORST TIME MANKIND HAS EVEN EXPERIENCED, and since the Spirit is gone - the one who restrains evil - mankind will do whatever they want. Rape a woman in broad daylight. Kill dudes for no reasons. Demons all over the world. Nature out of wack and being destroyed. But, you think that you'll just ... what? Ride it out? f) And what about the torture? Do you think they will ASK you to take the mark? They will torture and kill you. Do you think your body can endure without you giving in? They have torture methods now that can keep you alive, just to make sport of your torture. Maybe you should read about the methods of the Inquisitions? Read the Jesuit Oath of Induction. Oh, and Islam certainly will be left behind. See what they do to "infidels" while you are at it. ... are you sure you know the gravity and reality of what you think you know? I'm not even scratching the surface of how terrible those days will be ... and you think that there will be a group of Christians on this planet? Well, yes, you are right. None will take the mark ... because none will be here to take it. Only the lost and the hypocrites and the psuedoChristians will remain.

Kingdomwitness, God is Just ... is He not? Being Just, He MUST punish sin ... right? I see what you are saying with all of those, but have you read Ezekiel? You should read it again one day. Ezekiel shows that God has been tempted to wipe the Jews of the face of the earth multiple times. IN fact, He says that if it weren't for His own names sake, or for His PROMISE to Abraham ... He would have. So, yes He punished them all, because unlike us Gentiles, the Jews COLLECTIVELY AGREED to obey God AS A NATION. God warned them. Told them that IF they obeyed, THEN He would bless ... and IF they did NOT obey, THEN He would curse... and they AGREED. Not only for themselves, but for their children (descendants) as well. So, don't think it to be a contradiction, but rather it was/is a NATIONAL thing with them. After Malachi, God went silent for 400 years. Yes, that is silent to the righteous also. The whole congregation ... is guilty ... because they all agreed as a whole. They promised to keep them ... but they never really did (again, Ezekiel helps to sum it up nicely, starting in Chapter 2:3) Keep in mind, this is still different. We are talking about a promise of deliverance. Such is absent in the examples you provided. BELIEVE what Abraham said - far be it from you to destroy the righteous WITH the wicked. Believe it and cast off your doubt. For if Abraham is our father of faith, and God was pleased with Abraham, wouldn't He also be pleased with you in having the SAME FAITH? ... indeed He does. Indeed He does.

Kingdom, Be inspired by the TRUTH. Don't make this about me friend. :-) Love Gods Word. Know His character. Discern right from what is false. That is all I really want out of the believers in this thread. That the weak would grow. That the carnal would cast off their rebellion. That the seekers would find. That the opponents and distorters of Gods Word would be put down. ... that people will stop trying to understand God, and seek the UNDERSTANDING of God. See things as HE does. I believe that when we do ... we would see that He is not on His throne smiling, but angry. Yes, even towards His own children. But His tender mercies subdue His wrath. The Lamb of God stays His mighty hand, and will deliver us from evil. For "when I see the BLOOD, My wrath will pass over thee." It's ALL about Him. ... and I have no desire to distort the Word of God. I try to be very careful with it.

No. But I'm not discussing "chains of iron" to bind them. I'm talking about a "ROD of iron" in which one RULES over them. Picture in your head these images: 1) a king sitting in His throne with an iron rod in His hand 2) a bunch of people putting chains/binds on other people Big difference right? That is basically what the Scriptures are saying. My point was, and is, there is only ONE who rules with a rod of iron ... and that one person ... is Jesus, the Messiah. Do you now agree ... given my previous posts?

"Only Jesus is said to rule with a rod of iron." As has been pointed out, He does not rule with a wet noodle. Are you sure of your claim? Have you done the concordance check? All the saints will rule with a rod of iron which is the word of God Psalm 149:5-9 King James Version (KJV) 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord. That is incorrect. ONLY the Messiah is said to rule with a rod of iron. See it in Psalm 2 and again in Revelation 2. Read what you posted carefully. To BIND (tie them up) the kings with chains, and to BIND their nobles with FETTERS (chains) of iron. This passage of Scripture says nothing about RULING with a ROD of iron, but talks about people being TIED UP with strong things. Hope that helps.

... it's Ha Mashiach Not "har" "the" We say "Jesus Christ" in English as if it is His first and last name. But, correctly written in English, it is "Jesus THE Christ". In Hebrew (English rendition), it is Y'shua haMashiach. But, concerning your post. I haven't looked at Revelation in a good while now, but I tend to agree with you because out of Israel are the 12 TRIBES. Some scholars believe that its the 12 DISCIPLES. I disagree in the sense that the 12 DISCIPLES, while they are Jews out of Israel, of of Christ ... not Jacob. In addition, since the Church is Raptured, the main focus of those times will be the Jews of whom Satan tries to annihilate. However, in Revelation, we see TWENTY FOUR elders. 12 + 12 = 24. 12 tribes + 12 disciples The Messiah is the MIDDLE of everything! It's ALL about Jesus. cornerstone old lady ~ young girl etc, etc, etc HE is the main focus. I think when people start focusing on other things, including Israel or the Church, they miss the bigger picture of the Word of God.

"Only Jesus is said to rule with a rod of iron." As has been pointed out, He does not rule with a wet noodle. Are you sure of your claim? Have you done the concordance check? Not following you with the "wet noodle" business. Yes, I'm sure. Concordance? No. I haven't used a ... concordance ... in quite some time. I tend to allow SCRIPTURES to interpret SCRIPTURES (though I have much more powerful tools to use that mere concordances at my disposal). Here, let me share with you why I present it that way: Consider Psalm 2 Read it carefully. Notice that it is a TRIUNE PASSAGE. Observe that the Father talks about the Son - "MY Son" Observe how the Son talks about Himself - "ME" Observe how the Spirit talks about the Son - "THE Son" (not 'my' son) Basically, in one section you see the text talking about "MY Son" ... which is the Father. Then you see the text talking about "ME" ... which is the Son speaking of Himself. Then you see the text talking about "THE Son" ... which is the Spirit. Even Jesus said that the Comforter comes to glorify the Son, not Himself, and the same thing is shown in Psalm 2. So, when you see "kiss the Son" in the Psalms, it means "worship the son". How do I know? Well ... this is the result of deeper study. The Hebrew word for "kiss" in ancient times typically could mean worship, sort of like how you kiss a king's ring or kiss the feet of a ruler. In doing so, you are showing fealty and submissiveness ... even admitting defeat. Now, since I've established that Psalm 2 is talking about the MESSIAH, and not king David, we clearly see that the Messiah rules the nations with an iron scepter. David has never ruled the earth, nor with an iron scepter. Revelation tends to confirm this: Rev 2:27 And He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. So, both the Psalms and Revelation show that it is the Messiah who rules the nations with a rod of iron.

Now, the second act of religion, would obviously be Cain's sacrifice. What so many people miss is that Cain believed in the One, True, Living God. He was actually trying to please God (Reader: know how there are psuedoChristians and other religions who do to same). He was giving the BEST of his crops. The hard work of his hands. He was proud of his works. He thought, surely God would be happy with his hard labor. After all, Abel did not birth the lamb, or wrestle with the lamb in anyway. "Here Lord! Here are the best of my crops! Surely You have seen how hard I have toiled for these to grow! Surely these are accepting and pleasing to You!" ... and God did not even acknowledge Cain's words. Shattered! Crushed! Disappointed! Rejected! Angry! Hurt! Do you see how he is exercising religion? Oblations? Acts of his OWN hands? Observe how Abel did not toil or work for a lamb, but the lamb was pleasing to God. Observe how much harder Cain would have had to have worked to til the cursed ground just to yield produce. Observe how we are saved by GRACE, but those outside of the fold think they can be saved with WORKS from their own hands. "They have gone in the way of Cain ... and perished" (Jude 1:11) Observe. Cain offered his BEST. Think about that for a moment. His very best, won through sweat and the beating sun, and an un-cooperating earth. Every religion has observances in order to obtain their measure of "salvation" or "identity". Every single one. Observe also, that Cain killed his brother. Envy. Jealousy. Who persecutes Christians more than "religious people"? Think about that. PsuedoChristians and other religious groups persecute Christianity more than any other. CAIN has been trying to murder ABEL ever since, just as Adam/Eve have been clothing themselves in fig leaves ever since. He who is full of works, works which we say are rejected by God, is trying to kill and hate those who present a Lamb which we did not work or toil over ... to this very day. This very moment even. Observe also, Cains disdain for his brother was paralleled also by his rebellion against God. And so it is with religions. They want to do things THEIR way.

ANSWER ANSWER ANSWER ANSWER ANSWER The first act of religion is ... ADAM AND EVEN CLOTHING THEMSELVES WITH FIG LEAVES. Are any of you Bible students? Theologians? Scripture academics? Think about it. Mankind has been, ever since, trying to CLOTHE ITSELF and HIDE IT'S SHAME through religious acts, false piety, oblations, deeds and prayers ... all in an attempt to hide its nakedness, shame, and sinful heart ever since. And yes, even some Christians fall into oblations and the Law. If I can just pray 5 times a day in the sight of men, maybe I will be considered 'devout' If I can just give to the poor, maybe God will show me favor. If I can say the right words in the ears of those who matter, maybe I will be counted as wise. If I can just say that "I believe," nothing else will matter, and I will see the Kingdom of God. If I can just focus on God being love, ignoring that He is also a "consuming fire," maybe Hellfire will never threaten me. Maybe if I debate the thing He considers most sacred - His Word - in online forums, maybe I will become a "soldier" in His army. Maybe if I observe feasts, and ceremonies, and Sabbaths, and dietary things, maybe that is enough to appease his favor. Maybe if I do and accept all these things I like, ignoring all the things I do not, maybe God will understand and overlook my sinful heart. Maybe if I can just clothe my shame and hide behind all these fig leaves. Maybe, just maybe, God will not see my nakedness. Men have been clothing themselves in religion ever since.

Greetings sistren, Have you never heard of "religious acts"? Course you have. You've definitely heard of "acts of terrorism" right? Acts of religion = religious acts. Son of God = God the Son They are synonymous. Well, this thread is meant for FUN. We could all use a little "light moments" in here, and so far, people are giving answers showing they are thinking, not just blurting things out, which is nice. And everyone is gunning for the Jackpot. lol

This would have been correct ... if God actually ever rested. But Jesus said that the Father is "always working". And God give no "oblation" to Himself. But if Adam and Eve would have observed the Sabbath, you probably would have been absolutely right. However, the Law of Moses didn't exist until Moses, so, there is no evidence that anyone observed the Sabbath until the lifetime of Moses ... and by then, there were a great many religions on the earth already. Good shot!

Oh, so close. Yes, it does involve Adam AND Eve (not Satan, not God, and not a thing) ... but not quiet. Remember, its an ACT of religion. I have a relationship with my wife, but it's not an "act," it's a ... relationship. An act is something very specific that we do.

Deception and distortion. I see where you are going with this. But, not everything in religion is ... deceptive. Good shot, but we are looking for the first ACT of religion.

Enoch, I don't believe Satan ever worshipped himself. And, "YHWH" does talk about religion ... in both the Hebrew and the Greek. (see Isaiah 1:13-17 and James 1:27 - they mirror each other) Good shot, but this is not it. Religion is of man, so "spiritual beings" are not the focus.

What was the first act of religion? And to help you out, Cain was not born yet (just incase anyone thinks it was his sacrifice).

Only "fact" I care about, is that my name is written in the Lambs Book of Life ... and that I do not wish to distort His Word, or His character through lies or falsehood. After all, Jesus rebuked the Phraisees AND the Scribes to damnation. To God, there is no different from the verbal false or the written false. .... be careful what you type people. Now, concerning the seals. Well, it depends. If you think that the rider is THEE antichrist, that seal isn't broken yet. Again, why would the first rider be a man when the rest of the riders are things? That isn't consistent. If you think that rider is Christianity, you would have to think that the seal is broken. If anyone thinks like me, in which the rider represents religion - psuedoChristianity (which is also the SPIRIT of antichrist), then yes, the seal is broken. There have been more RELIGIONS that have sprung up all over the world that borrow and distort and imitate Christianity in the last 200 years than the prior 1000 years! It has been an explosion of "Christian based" religions that have sprung up.

1) I like what you are saying, but ... WWJD? Well, to me, that is easy. He would tell the TRUTH ... and those who distorted it, He would refute, harshly, just as He did with Pharisees and anyone else that deliberately (or not even) distorted the Word of God. And if they, and those who listened to them persisted against the Truth, He would tell them that their damnation is sure, and the that blind lead the blind and BOTH will fall into the ditch, and ultimately be destroyed. I believe that He would give examples of Israels unbelief, showing how THEY missed out and how THEY missed the blessings, because of unbelief. 2) HERE IS WISDOM (and I share it only because the Spirit whispered it to me just now): Why did the men of Noahs lifetime die? a) because of sin? or b) because of unbelief? Unbelief, of course. Sin was the catalyst, indeed. But they were given WARNING of impending danger. They could have ESCAPED, regardless of their sin, ... if only they BELIEVED. 3) God has shut the door in many people faces because they refused to believe ... and even moreso when they were warned to NOT disbelieve! His Judgments are even worst when He sends messengers to tell them to believe ... and they refuse to. Even the righteous perish for their unbelief. Is this not the Word of God? And what is "unbelief" ... if not the "hardness of the heart"? 4) I see unbelief all over the post-trib opinion. I really do. Where is their blessed hope? Where is the Spirit or the Church post Rapture, evidently seen prior to Tribulation, and then not seen during the Tribulation, according to Revelation? Why does Revelation show three times that men will not repent (only the Spirit can call to repentance)? Why is He "taken out of the way", hence, abandoning the Church, when He was sent FOR the Church? Does that even sound sensible? Why do they refuse to see the uncountable number in Heaven while Tribulation goes on in the earth? How'd they get there? Why do they refuse to see that the Dispensation of Grace (Gospel message) if no longer in existence in Revelation? Why do they refuse to acknowledge that the Israelites were safe on one side of Egypt, but now we are all intermingled, so God must remove His people from harms way? Why do they profane the Character of God in their unbelief? Why do they not see the difference of being "caught up" to be with Him, versus "returning" with the saints (one goes up, the other comes down)? Why do they not see the difference between a "twinkling of an eye" ... and slow enough for "every eye shall behold Him"? How have they missed that the antichrist will "cause them to believe the lie"? If they do not know the character or Word of God ... at least TRUST ABRAHAM ... whom ye call your "spiritual father" Abraham said 'FAR BE IT FROM YOU TO DESTROY THE RIGHTEOUS WITH THE WICKED! FAR BE IT FROM YOU!" And what was Gods response? For THEIR sake, I will not destroy the city. 5) What some people don't know, for whatever reason;- Unchurched. Untaught. Undisciplined. Carnal. Just regurgitating what someone told them, rather than reading the Word for themselves. - is that there is a distinctive difference between ALLOWING bad things to happen, which can and does effect Christians vs. SENDING them Himself. Such as what happens in Revelation. Over and over we see the angels in Heaven declaring that the terrible things are sent BY AND FROM GOD. Is it Gods character to destroy His children along with wicked? To me, I know He will not. I don't "believe" or "suppose". I know He will not. I will stand on all the things mentioned in the Scriptures ... and I will root all of those things on what MY father of Faith, Abraham, said ... and solidify it with Gods response to Abraham. "I WILL NOT destroy it for the sake of the righteous" If He will not, then He must remove us out of the way. Even a sinful father would tell his baby move to step aside before laughing a violent attack on an intruder. Will God allow Himself to be outdone .... BY A MERE MAN!? Far bet it from the Lord. 6) Even the early Church was looking for a Rapture! Paul himself wrote about it! So, how some Christians today have fallen from those teachings and beliefs ... well ... there truly is a Great Falling Away.

When someone says "the antichrist" ... do you break out a laundry list of all people who were against Jesus ... knowing full well that their context and subject is THEE antichrist? So, if I post something on the Messiah, are you going to dig up a list of all people who were 'annointed' and suggest that they are ALL "anointed ones"? So, when we talk about the Rapture (and you inserted resurrection), and you start discussing all sorts of resurrections that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCOMODATING THE RAPTURE ... you think I will follow you? I'm sorry Enoch ... I am no ones benefactor other than those who love the truth (and they mine), and things that are coy are unattractive to me. So, I politely ignore whatever it is that you are alluding to (at least I am courteous enough to tell you so).

Agreed. LOL Remember, this isn't my thread. I didn't create it. The title of this thread is "the Rapture THEORY"... I read the link that kingdomwitness presented. Apparently, Oakwood did not. My point is as yours is, that there is no such thing as the Rapture THEORY for the Believers. I've never heard of a "rapture theory" among the redeemed. That is like a pastor preaching on the "theory of Creation" Say what!? No, for believers, it is always simply stated as "they Rapture". Apparently, Oakwood (who seems to be making a point of trying to challenge me all the time) doesn't seem to know this. My response to kingdomwitness is that there are clues to know when articles are written by opponents. I've been around the block enough times to spot clues when I see them ... including the immaturity, lack of understanding, and the combative spirit that I see from a small number of people in these threads - just looking for fights when no one is even talking to them. So, yes. We are in agreement. It is THE RAPTURE.

Why do you accuse me of "insulting" someone when the person I am TALKING TO says no such thing? Maybe you should let THEM answer for a change? Cause there is no "insult" in my post ... and that introduction is a ... well, if I finished that sentence, it would be an "insult" The Word Trinity is not in the Bible either? And ... we don't know the obvious? Nor is the word "Pentateuch" Nor is the word "Father" (no English there) Nor is the word "Rapture" "J" didn't yet exist Nor is the word "exegesis" Nor hermeneutics Nor apologetics Nor first aorist and middle participles Nor are a great many things ... so I don't know what your point is. Thirdly, once again, you INSERT what you want into my posts. Can you show me saying that it is WRONG? No. You can't ... can you (this is becoming a habit for you). I said that among US Christians, it is called "The Rapture" and is never called "the rapture theory". Was I wrong? Was I wrong that the man is a skeptic? LOL You really aren't refuting me in any way Oakwood. Not sure why you think you are, or can, or why you like to start something every time (observe, YOU throw the first stone, not I). Fourthly, if you think I'm brand new to debating ... I suggest you cast that thought out immediately. I prefer open mics, but, online panels are fine. And once again, you INSERT your own delusion where I said no such thing. You suggest that I think that anyone who disagrees with "me" is a distorter, skeptic, etc. YOU inserted that. I did not such thing. You obviously can read, so how is it that you don't know the difference between debating pre/mid/post verse TRUE OR FALSE?! This thread is about the debate between if it is TRUE or if it is FALSE ... last I could read. In fact, it STILL is. So ... what in the world are YOU talking about? What is the definition of a Troll? Fifthly, what you do with your Bible is not a concern of mine ... and given your constant tone, I suggest you do a lot more than just "read your Bible".