mevosper

Serving - your definition of "measure" is incorrect, and it becomes a crumbly foundation. Here is the correct definition used in Rev 11:1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3354&t=KJV

Quote: And here we see the exact point in time when judgment comes: Jhn 12:31 KJV - [31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

To hear that the witnesses are "the law and the prophets" does not sound as dramatic as some thoughts about the witnesses being 2 individuals. There is excitement in the idea that two people will be the judges of God turning water to blood,; holding back the rain; or spewing fire from their mouths. Some may think "Finally, someone who can show real judgment against sinners, murderers, and all those people who refused God. Put 'em up against a wall and let the power of God burn them to hell..." This is certainly not the Spirit of God. Christ taught his disciples a spirit of mercy and grace. However, in our spiritual growth, it is even more exciting when the Spirit of God reveals these hidden truths to us. For example: to learn that the witnesses are not 2 specific individual human beings, but that they are more, is exciting and awesome. We learn through the growth of the Spirit within us what these nuggets of truth are. And the deepness, freshness, and life of these truths are what makes God AWESOME!

Sister - John is seeing this in a vision. Any talk or idea of an actual physical temple that stood and/or may stand should be circumspect. John's vision is not about a physical building. What is being represented by the temple is the law that was given to the Jews through Moses. There is clarity here that those within the temple area are Jews. This, because in the very next verse we are told "Gentiles" are "without the temple" (meaning, outside the temple area). "Measure it not" means they (Gentiles) are not "under" the law. Paul talks about this in Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians. This vision is also not about "the kingdom of God" and those saved under the work of Christ on the cross. It talks of those that are allowed in the temple area (Jews) and those that are not allowed in the temple area (Gentiles). This vision, in verses 1 & 2, creates a distinction between Jews under the law, and Gentiles without the law. My questions: "What is being measured?", "Who is the temple given to?", and "Who is being measured?" are to properly clarify the subjects of these 2 verses. It seems as if you are also trying to relate this to something other than a physical building - which says to me you see the symbolism. If there is going to be symbolism, we need to be sure that we see the exact symbolism that is being called for. "measure the temple" - charge those that have been given the knowledge of God to uphold that duty with all due diligence. Check to be sure they are acting and responding accordingly. "and the altar" - are they sacrificing properly? are they upholding the laws given to them by God? Are they spilling innocent blood, murdering, and being deceitful with these duties.

Serving - exactly! Rereading my post I didn't make that clear. I've been taking some time in this area to understand better. Here are my thoughts currently as I grow. Who are the witnesses? Without stealing the thunder of the discussion, the lightning is that these two witnesses are not individual human beings. The witnesses are: “the law” and “the prophets”. I can hear the question now: “How in all of God’s creation, can you come to that conclusion?” Honestly, not without the spirit of God. But let him lead you in the direction that He lead me. Let’s start with Revelation 11:1 Firstly, the law. Rev 11:1 KJV And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. What is being measured? The Temple Who was the temple given to? The Jews Who is being measured? Only those that can minister unto the temple. Whenever there is a measuring of temple or people in the word of God, it needs to be understood that something is being measured, or judged, against a standard. When a carpenter measures a piece of wood, he takes out his ruler, his standard of measurement, and determines the exact length in which to cut. His rule, or his article of judgement or “law”, is used to determine the rightful length of the piece of wood. If the “law” determines the wood to be too long, the carpenter cuts off the extra. The wood did not meet the standard. If it is too short, he casts it aside for another piece of wood. The measuring of the temple of God, the altar (the place of sacrifices), and them that worship therein pertains to the Israelites. The articles of judgement, or law was given to them. The law enumerated the ministering of the temple and the ministering to God. In a sense, they were given the keys to the knowledge and wisdom of God. This same law was used to judge those that were required to follow the law, therefore they would be judged by the law. The idea of measuring something in the bible refers to the act of grading or judging against a known law or rule. God’s law, given to the Israelites and their ministering of the temple, is the reed. (Matt 7:2). Romans 3:20-21: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Interesting note: the specificity of the measurements of Ezekiel’s temple highlights the perfectness of Christ. Specifically Ezekiel’s temple is representative of Christ (Ezekiel 40-48). But this is something for another discussion. Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Gentiles were not allowed in the temple. They, Gentiles, were not held to the standards of the law. The law was not given to the Gentiles and therefore they are not measured against that reed. ...And now to include the prophets. Rev 11:3 KJV And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Rom 3:21 KJV - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; The two witnesses are the law and the prophets which were until John the Baptist Their prophecy shall last 1260 days (years). From the time of Moses until John? 1446 .B.C - http://www.bibleanswers.info/484 31 - 32 AD Not sure what is meant by the 1260 days. Rev 11:4 KJV These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Now here is an interesting paradox. Those not looking for the witnesses to be represented by the law and the prophets, will take the olive trees and candlesticks in verse 4 and try to relate them to people. Rev 11:5 KJV And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Many may think that these witnesses will be walking flamethrowers, spewing out fire from their mouths at anyone that would desire to hurt them. If, however, this verse is aligned with what Christ taught, it will become clear that this is not going to happen. Luke 9 gives an example of Christ rebuking his disciples for threatening fire from heaven and reminds them of his mission. ...and sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eli´jah did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:52-56) An argument can be made that Christ was only being rejected. Nothing worse. And the rejection certainly doesn’t seem worth the judgement of fire from heaven. The penalty does not fit the crime. However, Christ responded in a specific way. He does not mince words, and his sayings are not benign. “Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of”. The judgment the disciples were suggesting was a physical, carnal response. A response to being rejected. They seemed to be looking for retribution for being shunned. But God’s grace is through Christ. The need/goal/desire of God is to save mankind, not spew fire from a human’s mouth at another. Rev 11:6 KJV These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Here we have the very first inclination that it may be two distinct human individuals representing the witnesses. This verse seems to tie in the OT prophets of Elijah and Moses. God commanded Elijah to tell King Ahab that the heavens would not drop any rain (1 King 17). In Exodus 7, God commands that Aaron place his rod in the river to turn the water to blood (Ex 7:20). Looking deeper, though, there are some treasures that can be uncovered in these verses. The curses found within Deu 28:15-68 are very descriptive and explicit concerning not following the law of God. Shutting of the rain: One of the curses, found in verse 23, indicates that the heavens “over thy head shall be brass”, meaning that rain will not fall to water the plants. Compare this to Rev 11:6: “...that it rain not in the days of their prophecy…”. What is it that causes the heavens over their heads to withhold their rain? Verse 15 gives the answer: “...if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD…”. Turn water to blood: These commands were given before the days of prophets or laws, it seems. Agreed, but then isn’t Moses called a prophet? Deu 34:10 KJV - [10] And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, Was he not a vessel at the time of the Nile turning into blood?

Laws can die. Laws can also be raised from the dead. Congress can be considered a body. As well, an email message has a body. These are just examples of different word usages. The descriptive text in Revelation describing the two witnesses can apply to more than human beings. Being personified does not automatically make them people. I've shown bible verses in which these descriptions are applicable to the law and the prophets.

Is it easy to believe these witnesses are 2 individuals because of the miracles they perform: turning water to blood (Moses), and withholding rain from heaven (Elijah)? From what I know of the OT, there was never an individual that spewed fire from his mouth like a fire-breathing dragon. Neither are these two witnesses two individuals representing the law and the prophets. For the law and the prophets were until John. What makes it so difficult to believe these two witnesses are the law and the prophets?

the law and the prophets Rom 3:21 KJV - [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Bible2 - My response was actually addressed to Tigger, the author of the original post. But since you have offered your opinion, I feel obligated to respond. Ezekiel's Temple description is shared with John's vision of why there is no temple in the New Jerusalem. See in Revelation 22 where the river proceeds from the throne of God? This is the same river that proceeds from Ezekiel's temple in chapter 47: Eze 47:1-2 KJV - [1] Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. [2] Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side. Rev 22:1-2 KJV - [1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. How do I know this is the same temple and river? Looking further into Ezekiel's river, it gets wider and deeper until Ezekiel is unable to cross it (Ez 47:5). Ezekiel continues to describe this river as a healing river. It heals the many waters. (Ez 47:9). Revelation's river is for the healing of nations, meaning it has the saving grace that Christ's work on the cross provided. These are the same river. Think about this for a moment, also. Where are these waters coming from? Ezekiel:from under the threshold of the house. Revelation: out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Where is the throne of God? ​It is the ark of the covenant, between the 2 cherubims: ​​Exodus 25:22 KJV - [22] And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. ​The throne of God, where he would meet with Moses, was in the temple, between the Cherubim, in the Holy of Holies in the temple. The flowing of this river is the living water that Christ talks about with the woman at the well: Jhn 4:14 KJV - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Same healing waters, same healing rivers, same temple.

Tigger - I'm of the belief that the third temple, Christ being the corner stone, is not a physical temple, but is the body of Christ. Ezekiel's temple, more than not, describes the saving power of Christ's redemptive work on the cross. The river that flows from under the threshold of the tabernacle is symbolic of the water that flowed from Christ's side when he was pierced. There is more detail, more measurements, about Ezekiel's temple than any other temple in the bible. This tells me that Christ, being represented by the temple in Ezekiel, lived up to and was able to meet, and fulfill, the measurements and judgments of God's laws. Ezekiel is told to show these measurements to the house of Israel so that they may "measure the pattern" and know their shame (Ezek 43:10-11). The symbolism in measuring something that we see in prophetic books is to see if something has been able to meet the standard which God set. He is saying "Here is the law, and here is the measuring stick to see how well you are doing." Are we measuring up. It's the same as going to court. The law is presented and we are measured against that law - and fined appropriately if not. Christ was able to fulfill the requirements of the law, and this is what Ezekiel's temple is.

I've come to the belief that the two witnesses are the law and the prophets. Here is how I've come to that conclusion: The law and the prophets convict of sin and wrong doing. The prophets stopped rain from heaven and turned water to blood. The conviction and reprimand of the law is likened to "spewing fire from one's mouth". The prophets and the law were both witnesses of God's righteousness. The Law and it being killed 1. In the old testament, the law was given to the Priests and Levites to practice and teach to all the children of Israel. But as time progressed, they corrupted the law and used it for their own gain. (Zep 3:4, "...they have done violence to the law.", Lam 2:9, Neh 9:26, 2ki 17:13-20) The Prophets being killed There is no lack of God's "disgust" with the killing of the true prophets delivering His words to the Old Testament jews (Matt 23:33-37 Jesus talking to the scribes and Pharisees, 2 Chr 36:15-16) The Prophets as a witness of God Jer 25:4-6 Paul references the law and the prophets as witnesses: Rom 3:21 - "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets". Meaning that Christ's redemptive work on the cross made righteousness possible to all men, not just those raised under the levitical priesthood teachings. Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets John 1:45, Matt 5:17, Luke 24:44 The law and the prophets were until John Matt 11:13, Luke 16:16 The death of the 2 witnesses. As Christ said, the law and the prophets were until John. Once Christ was crucified and raised again (therefore fulfilling the law), the symbolism of the 2 witnesses being raised to life and taken up to heaven is fulfilled.

Just a random seed from a nearby tree; or, direct placement by the Creator? I have a small plot of land in the whole grand scheme of things. In the middle of this plot is a large Poplar tree. It stands about 75 ft (23 meters). I have recently been viewing trees and forests as God's way of showING us who we are. trees are at times used symbolically in the bible to represent us. So with that in mind (no I'm not a tree worshipper) what do you think: random seed or direct placement?

Ezra said: > It helps no one to go beyond Scripture, and indeed it can be very damaging to those who may be new in the faith. It helps no one to hide the fact that they have been called by God to worship him and do his will. Ezra said: > Your attempt to equate free will with the flesh goes contrary to (and beyond) Scripture. I already quoted from Scripture where God says (Lev 1:2) "he shall offer it OF HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL". That was an offering to the LORD which was brought freely and exercising free will. Then I quoted "freewill offerings" also. You simply ignored Scripture, and are suggesting that God was encouraging the flesh to bring offerings to Him -- an absurd notion. God was encouraging the flesh to bring offerings to him. At that time in the old testament, the laws were on physical tables. They had not been written in the hearts yet. One of the ideas of the old testament was to show the "weakness" of the physical/temporal. In your very next statement you put Christians under the control of either the flesh or the Spirit - which actually is my point. "Who's control is one under?" Christ even said "Not my will, but thine". "The Christian's free will can be EITHER under the control of the Holy Spirit OR under the control of the flesh (Gal 5:16-25). Christians can and do crucify the flesh and walk in the Spirit. Other Christians can walk in the flesh. But it is precisely because the will is free that Paul exhorts Christians thus: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall NOT fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16 KJV). If the will was not free to go in either direction, then Paul would not have made this statement. > > So our free will is what we want to do: (1) either under the control of God the Holy Spirit (new spiritual nature), or (2) under the control of our flesh (old sinful nature). That's Bible Truth, not some distortion of free will according to the doctrines of men. And once again you have finished with "...our free will is what we want to do...", which, again, is my point. Eve did what she wanted in the garden. As you quoted the flesh is against the nature of the spirit and the nature of the spirit is against the flesh. Unless there is a desire to do the will of God, we will not desire to do that which is of the Spirit willingly. This is what Paul is saying in Galatians. There are two perspectives to view this from: 1. FresnoJoe brings up a great scripture to give us God's perspective: "Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." 1 Ki 19:18. God chose 7000 to not bow the knee to Baal. 2. Then there is our perspective, which Christ brings to us in this passage: "[Mat 26:41 KJV] 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak." Ultimately... "not my will, but thine". We either do the desires of the flesh, or we do the desires of the Holy Spirit. Because as you say, we are under the control of one of those "entities". And actually, I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. If it's God's will, it is not our will, free or otherwise. Conversely, if it is our will, it is not God's. Freewill to me seems like the exact thing that the serpent tempted Eve with. "Be free to choose for yourself. Never mind that God chose for you not to eat of the tree?" What is the problem with believing God has planned everything and controls all?

That definition superimposes on free will the idea that free will = choosing selfish desires only, with no consideration of anything else. But that is false. That is exactly what it is. Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; who can know it?" Concerning the law written on their hearts, it is already planned to happen. Much like a book. The pages are already written. Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV) "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (ref Hebrews 10:16, Romans 2:15) Isaiah 46:10 (KJV) "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying , My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 14:24 (KJV) "The LORD Almight has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen." Ezra said: We have Scriptures to prove that free will can be and should be exercised to serve the Lord and obey Him. Indeed all God's blessings to Israel were contingent upon free will obedience to His commandments. "...can be and should be". Our flesh has a terrible habit of doing itself favors - hence - ultimately the flesh won out in the Old Testament and the people rebelled against God. They "free willed" right into reprobate minds. Our "free will" is what we want to do.

does anyone "see" the spirit of 'me, self, I' in freewill? If it's not God 100%, it's "me". Does that make sense? I was drawn to understand more, and that by the hearing of the word, that we are the New Testament temple/house/mansion. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost. "In my father's house are many mansions...". Once viewed that way, I begin to follow what god sits in the holy of holies in that temple. This being within myself. I don't expect everyone to see it from this angle, but there must be some educator or teacher from the Fine Arts Department.

I see where you are coming from. He will not rise above God, correct. That's not the idea I was trying to convey. However, he does things for his own pleasure because all he cares about is himself and his name. On the other side, a person has free will. Now, if I wanted to be a bird and fly like a bird, I can work towards my desires, even though I might not succeed. It is my free will to decide to work towards what I want. As a believer, I desire to serve God, and by my free will choose to do that, working towards serving God. I might also desire to be a multi-billionaire and with my own free will, work towards that goal. I will probably not succeed but success has little to do with free will. Free will is simply being able to choose and then, acting on that choice. It does not guarantee success. Any person God has called will have a true desire to do His will. Can we fail? Yes. Can we sin? Yes... Can we do it willfully?..... Yes, but this happens less and less as we grow and mature in His Spirit and Grace. God is so gracious and merciful to our shortcomings. But this does not mean that we continue to sin. We fall on our faces and beg for his mercy, just as David talked about. And yes, this does sound sappy, but it is not unbiblical. Paul had a thorn in his side, a weakness in His flesh (2 Cor 12:7-9), but he was God's messenger to the Gentiles. God chose Paul to do His will. I found it ironic you would choose to be a bird or a "multi-billionaire". If I had to guess, i would say these would be in the top 10 answers of the 100 people who were surveyed (Family Feud pun). Here's the irony. You can fly like that of a bird: Isa 40:31 KJV - [31] But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. But wealth and riches can be a downfall: 1Ti 6:10 KJV - [10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. Mat 19:24 KJV - [24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. I see where you are coming from. He will not rise above God, correct. That's not the idea I was trying to convey. However, he does things for his own pleasure because all he cares about is himself and his name. So, with my ability to choose, free will, I can choose to serve God, or seek money. ...and again, with your ability... you can choose.... This sounds like a Bing Crosby tune, or a Burger King commercial (which oddly enough is changing their slogan from "Have it your way" to "Be your way") Do you see the "spirit" of freewill?

I see where you are coming from. He will not rise above God, correct. That's not the idea I was trying to convey. However, he does things for his own pleasure because all he cares about is himself and his name.

I disagree, in part, to the above statement. Is it not Gods will that we continue to follow Him, that His Spirit convicts us of sin to a point of repentance, which we are free to accept or reject? If we reject, that is our choice we have made on our own, but if we repent, it is in obedience to His will and His work in our lives. We cannot do this ourselves, so the "I" turns into a "we" when we take a closer look at how the decision came about. I take no credit for following God, it is 99.9% Him and .1% me, since I had to agree. It is 100% Him. Your .1% is still self saying "Ok, God, I can choose to agree or not, but I'm gonna ..."

I'm pretty sure Satan is all about gratifying himself: Isa 14:13-14 KJV - [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Satan is a tool of God He is not a human, He is bereft of freewill. and choices he made God gave him....to complete his will Would Jesus ever have been crucified without the devil working the scene He is a rat being led through the maze He could inflict Job until God allowed it This leads to an interesting conundrum then. One must ask, then, was it God's will that the serpent deceive Eve in the garden? Was Satan the cause of man's fall, or was the Father? Personally, I believe God holds all the power and nothing is done without Him having total control of everything. There are no "buts". Regardless, the message of the post is to edify the church, and to look inwards, and ask "Who's will is in control of our lives?" I find the whole concept of free will quite fascinating.

Riverwalk - interesting reply, but I think you either missed the point. Or, you got the point and are trying to redirect. My point in the post above is that Satan uses his freewill for his own gratification. When we are making a free will decision, we are doing it according to our own will - not anyone else's, including God's. The thought process is: "i have free will to choose what I want to do when I want to do it". It's all about "self".

This is not to debate whether free will exists or not. It is a consideration of what "free will" is in its most basic idea. It seems to me that "free will" is the idea that one can make their own choice. The concept is to give the choice to the individual: "I decide to..." or "I will make the choice...". And this choice could be to pull the trigger of a gun pointed at someone, rob a bank, or even to put faith in God. Regardless of the choice, we are putting ourselves in the "decision makers" chair. If we consider our bodies to be the temple of the Holy Spirit, which Paul tells us it is, then the idea of "free will" must be viewed from a different level. A different level that I believe is: (1) uncomfortable for not just a few persons; and (2) a level not considered by very many. "What is that level?" you say. The concept of "free will" boils down to what choices we make for ourselves that may or may not be beneficial for us. The idea is that "I" made the choice. "I" decided not to pull the trigger, or "I" decided not to rob the bank, or "I" decided to give my life to Christ. These choices were decisions that "I" made. I remember learning a simply saying many years ago in Sunday School: "I" is in the middle of "s-i-n". These same "I" choices were the choices that the prince of Tyre is making: Eze 28:2 KJV - [2] Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: These same "I" choices were also those made by Lucifer, son of the morning in Isa 14:13-14 Isa 14:13-14 KJV - [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. In the Garden of Eden, this was the same scheme that Satan used to tempt Eve: Gen 3:6 KJV - [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (food for eating and satisfying the hunger pangs and nutrition requirements of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (look pleasant and pretty to the eye, the physical eye that God warns us not to use for judging), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (to gain worldly wisdom and knowledge), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. "free will" is what "I" choose to do, regardless of anything else. So, I ask you brothers and sisters in Christ, is "free will" really where we want to our decisions?

Personally I found this interesting (and safe): not only 2 by 2 for Noah's ark, but by sevens also. Gen 7:2

Exactly, and as you said "unless someone is lying". However, we still need to be sure we are understanding what is being conveyed. We may know what the words, in this example, mean individually, but doesn't it take another level of deciphering to "understand" the spirit of another? or what the thought being conveyed is? Concerning what God is trying to convey, remember his thoughts are deeper than ours and only by His Spirit can they be translated/conveyed/perceived/understood properly. Yes, actually, what you do want is exactly what Saul was after. An answer through another means. Yes, he knew he had been cut off, but just like a child, he was going to find another way. He was throwing a tantrum like a child because he couldn't have his way. Don't we all do this on occasion? I did this just the other day. I read in another post where someone shook his fist at God. And again, as you grow in the spirit of the Lord, you will see the spirit of things as you talk about. You will perceive them correctly. That mindset is a growth process. If you don't get anything else from this, at least get that. Well, unfortunately we live in a physical world and need to deal with it as a physical world. I hate the manipulation that banks have on our economy through money. But I need money to buy a loaf of bread. We can "see" the spiritual side, but we must still respond and live in the physical as well. I perceive that you are an immature christian. Just by your questions, and your responses. You seem to be a child, spiritually, looking to be all grownup. Want to know and see everything before your time. There are 2 ways to do this: 1) familiar spirits like the witch of endor, or 2) grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord which requires milk first then meat. Your fruit will produce in it's time. And if you are interested in maturing in the Lord, you will choose door 2.

It will be awesome to find the gates in New Jerusalem lead into the Garden of Eden