Last Daze

I agree that they aren't the same event. I've noticed a correlation though between trumpet 1, vial 1...trumpet 2, vial 2...etc. and based on the symbolism I think its reasonable to assume that the trumpet 1 begins judgment 1 and the pouring out of vial 1 brings it to its completion. The same for 2, 3, etc. Trumpets announce or commence something....emptying a vial finished it. At least IMO. Edit: The seventh trumpet and vial are likely in rapid succession.

I'm inclined to agree with your viewpoint but consider the rapture timing somewhat of a secondary issue. I think our focus should be on discerning the times, which will be beneficial to all. We have examples of God's protection...the Hebrews in Egypt as OneLight pointed out, Lot, and Noah as below. "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment..." 2 Peter 2:4-9

Since I see the final world kingdom starting off as a multinational power (feet of iron and clay) presumably the UN, the 1948 day to me is significant. I think the first seal corresponds to the Rev 13:2 release of the beast from the abyss (fallen angel) and that happened prior to 1948. The fallen angel then caused the UN to come into being which then recognized Israel.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: jesse. This will not happen at the coming, because many will survive the second coming. They will be cast into the fire at the second judgement; They will be the goats on the left. jesse. God's cup of wrath is poured out on the earth on the last day of this world, at Christ's second coming. It is what will destroy man's works off the surface of the earth and end this present time, ushering us into Christ's thousand years reign on earth. See 2 Pet.3:10 and end of Hebrews 12, and especially Isaiah. I agree that babylon will be no more. But there will be many survivors,and they will carry on on earth. Christ will set up his kingdom with boundaries.rev 21:17.18, it's a cube. There will be no fly zone for satans angels. The survivors will be preach to by the chosen jews.Many will be converted but also many will not. Jews and gentiles will multiply during the thousand years.Then satan will draw all the unconverted to one place to be destroyed by God himself. This is the war of gog in the land of magog.(non believers). It will take seven moths to bury the dead in the valey of hamongog. jesse. I thought Christ's kingdom filled the earth per Daniel 2. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

The judgment scroll shows `who will be judged.` 1. Conquering / Political system `lording it over.` 2. War /Military 3. Scales / Economic `rich not giving labourer his hire.` 4. Death & Hades / Religious motivation. 5. (martyrs) blood of God`s servants. 6. The world in fear of God`s wrath. 7. The Coming of the Lord. (the completion (7) of the judgments. We see in different scriptures that God will judge this Gentile world system (Luke 21: 24 1 Cor. 6: 2 Dan. 7: 26) And in Deut. 32 we see that these judgments are `sealed up` until God`s timing. The very words are similar to Rev. 10 - `Indeed, I lift up my hand to heaven, & say as I live forever, If I sharpen my flashing sword & My hand takes hold on justice, I will render vengeance on My adversaries, & I will repay those who hate Me. I will make My arrows drunk with blood & My sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the slain & the captives, from the long-haired leaders of the enemy.` `Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For he will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 40 - 43) Thus we can see the 2 groups - Israel (His people) & the nations (Rev. 7 Israel & the nations) who can `rejoice` when they turn to God, that He will avenge the martyrs, (blood of His servants) ....etc Hope that it explains it more, Last Daze. How do you reconcile the fifth seal as a judgment with John 5:24? “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

When I read what happens at the opening of the seals, it seems that judgment is announced in the sixth seal and is carried out in the seventh seal with the trumpets. I don't see how the term "judgment" applies to the whole scroll. I agree that it leads to judgment but I don't see how each seal is a judgment, especially the first and fifth. If you think they are judgments, can you explain what the judgment is for seals 1 and 5? Thanks.

Have you heard anything about the dome being in the court of the gentiles and not needing to be destroyed in order for a temple to be built?

I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the scroll is a judgment scroll.

So what gave these beasts (kingdoms) their dominion? I think Daniel 10 sheds some light on it...the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece, and I'm guessing that by extension, the prince of Babylon, and the prince of Rome. I see it as the supernatural's effect upon the natural i.e. the fallen angel is allowed to influence an earthly government into a place of dominion. Then at some point, that angel (dominion) is taken away, yet the earthly kingdom continued on for a while. Is that how you see it Sister? I think that in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2 you can see the inclusion of all of those fallen angels (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) when Christ returns in these verses: 34 You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time... 44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. I don't see how that can be talking about the historic kingdoms in a natural sense.

Hi Last daze. Demons are not fallen angels;but they are the souls of the hybrids during the flood. The spirits of those half angels are not accepted in heaven. They are the trouble makers on earth. And they do possess people. jesse. Hey Jesse, Yeah, I've heard that distinction between fallen angels and demons. While I don't doubt what you're saying, I'm not convinced that its accurate either. Honestly, I just don't know. I've read articles that support both views. If fallen angel works better in your thinking than demon, that's fine. The point is still the same i.e. the beast from the sea is an evil spirit being and not a human. Hi Last Daze Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. This passage is interesting, I thought you might want to look into it. It appears that these kings that are ruling when Christ returns (possibly the ten?) will not be killed at the coming. It appears that the Lord will not only take their dominion away, but put them in prison for some time. They are accountable for much evil, and the Lord is going to let them know he is Lord. These are rich powerful leaders who have had all the pleasures in life, ...who have never gone without. They have caused much sufferring to the world, and their blasphemies will now be dealt with. ...so now they will be made to feel it. A death sentence in prison is a big turn around from the lifestyles they are used to. That does look interesting. I'm guessing that you see v 21 as making a distinction between fallen angels and demons? I'll look it up and get a feel for the context as well. Thanks Sister.

Hi Last daze. Demons are not fallen angels;but they are the souls of the hybrids during the flood. The spirits of those half angels are not accepted in heaven. They are the trouble makers on earth. And they do possess people. jesse. Hey Jesse, Yeah, I've heard that distinction between fallen angels and demons. While I don't doubt what you're saying, I'm not convinced that its accurate either. Honestly, I just don't know. I've read articles that support both views. If fallen angel works better in your thinking than demon, that's fine. The point is still the same i.e. the beast from the sea is an evil spirit being and not a human.

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it. I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth. LAMAD Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God. Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple. LAMAD Sounds more like the personal testimony agrees with your interpretation of the Word. Paul's testimony is in the Bible. The others you refer to are not. Big difference. Concerning my reading about thieves, have you ever heard of "setting up the straw man"? Its a logical fallacy where someone tries to bolster their position by presenting an argument that is generally true but irrelevant. That's what you've done. The fact that stealing is a sin, and that thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God is true but completely irrelevant to the idea of extra-Biblical testimony being used to interpret God's word.

I've always wondered why this is an issue. Is it an effort to establish a "baseline" of sin that we can "get away with" and still be saved? Or a means to control people through fear? Why not teach people to learn and do the will of God? Then it becomes much less of an issue, if any issue at all.

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it. I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth. LAMAD Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it.

The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss). I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th). LAST DAZE. The 8th beast was and is not;yet is. Was=he really was: which was a one world system and religion, and a one preople and one leader. That beast was called BABEL, the kingdom of Nimrod. Is not = He is no more in the days of Johns. And yet is = He is not dead. Satan has not given up that idea,in his head. And will come out of the bott.pit = the nwo is an idea,and that idea will come out of the bott.pit. Bottomless pit = Satans brain child. jesse. Time will tell.

The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss). I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th).

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause. I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that. I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times. but remember that most people are going to think the beast is the best thing since sliced bread, and they will rat you out or kill you themselves. That's very true. Given the way that Muslims are infiltrating virtually every country on the planet and their propensity for beheadings, and hatred for Christians, I think I know who the axemen will be. I still think that technology will be used to spot people who don't emit the expected electronic signal in order to expedite the "cleansing".

I agree that the logistics of such an undertaking is enormous. I think that the 10 leaders were planning on ruling much longer than one hour and that they will have made all the preparations, logistically speaking, for the implementation of the mark. The false prophet (antichrist) hijacks their system and after subduing their rebellion, begins implementing the mark...as I see it.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause. I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that. I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause.

'Accountability' is the key. Our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven man, except the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit, which I believe during the tribulation when the 'mark' is instituted will only apply to one of His elect falling away. If one sins in ignorance that is a different situation of accountability to God. In the case of the 'mark' when the Pseudo-Christ comes, brethren that do that in ignorance is different than brethren not in ignorance that know better, but accept it anyway (like a chosen elect). Per the end of Rev.13, a requirement of taking the 'mark' associates agreement to bow in false worship. It's shown as a choice. Since the devil is after our souls especially, it wouldn't mean the same thing if it was forced upon one who refused the false worship, which is why it says those who refuse are to be killed. For those in Christ who are given from God to know the coming Pseudo-Christ will play our Lord Jesus, knowing the difference between the false coming and our Lord Jesus true coming later, if they accept the mark they will have committed the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit. They will be held fully accountable, because they were given to 'know', and will not be able to claim ignorance when Jesus comes. But a brother who doesn't know that difference, and thus becomes deceived, will think that coming Pseudo-Christ will be whom? They will believe that truly is... our Lord Jesus, so they will not even consider that they are bowing in false worship to another. This is why it is so important to understand per God's Word what kind of Antichrist is coming to sit the temple of God in Jerusalem for the last days, exalting himself as God. Per God's Word it is going to be a fake Christ, and a very believable fake one at that, not some pope or religious fanatic like those of past history that only claimed to be Jesus Christ. This is why those who look for some leader rising from among Islam, or New York, or any other faction except one that would fit our Lord Jesus, are way off the track of God's Word on this matter. Interesting perspective. Would it be fair to summarize your reply as: those who receive the mark with the full knowledge of what it is will not be able to repent but those who receive it in ignorance will be able to?

What if it were a statue image of what brethren think our Lord Jesus looks like??? Afterall, our Lord Jesus was specific in Matt.24:23-26 that the coming Antichrist will come to play Him, and if possible that pseudo-Christ would deceive even His very elect (KJV "false Christs" = Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, pseudo and Christos. Those verses are in the singular tense per their context.) Okay, so if there is some physical statue image, how does everyone in the world worship it? I'm presuming that if it were a statue that it would be located in Jerusalem. The way I read it, there's only one image. How do the people of the world make it, that one image? Those characteristics keep me from thinking that its a physical statue, unless maybe it's accompanied by a code of laws as mentioned in the OP. I'm not discounting the possibility of a physical statue but I can't see that its only a statue.

I know we're not given a lot of info on the 144,000 but what do you see as their purpose? Hi Last Daze I see two groups. 1. The masses that came out of tribulation and washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb. Mind you their robes are only cleansed after they are persecuted. They chose Christ in the end and prepared to die for his sake. 2. The small group, the 144,000 who followed the lamb whereever he went. This means they are not luke-warm, but must be true followers existing at the end times. Whether Jew or gentile, they are Christ's. I believe they already washed their robe white during their life, and not just "at the end" They are called the "first-fruits". So they must be the "first" of something. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. They are there with Christ, but where are the masses that were mentioned? Not there yet as it appears. They must be taken up first, just before the others. I don't think these ones will be killed during the tribulation, but spared somehow, like it was during the passover in Egypt when the angels were not allowed to harm those who had the mark on their door. Same type of thing, as they are sealed and protected, and there is only a small number. Revelation 7:1-8 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. Revelation14:1-5 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. I've always been curious about this phrase: These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. I can't imagine that this is talking about sex since in a marriage relationship its not defiling. Maybe a spiritual application?

Hi Last Daze. I think it means that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord - before the trumpets blow, and have the knowledge to refuse the mark of the beast will be spared from the wrath of God. After that it will be too late. Many will realise they have made a mistake for taking the mark of the beast, but that mark on them shows who they chose to serve. Once it's there, cannot change it. Can remove the mark if you wish, but your name is still listed as being the property of the Beast. They already traded their inheritance for a bowl of soup. Hi Sister, I'm not sure how you see the seals unfolding. I think the mark is given during the fifth seal, after the warfare of the first four seals. This is when the worship or die ultimatum is given and believers are martyred. Then the sixth seal coincides with the above quoted passage, then the seventh seal with God's judgment (trumpets/vials). Are you saying that up until the sixth seal that those who have received the mark can repent but once the trumpets blow, the option is off the table?