WilliamL

By inference of this passage: Rev 17:8 the "when" was sometime before John wrote Revelation. My guess on the "how" is that he was strong-armed into it. It doesn't seem to be a place that evil spirit beings like going to willingly. And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 I'm not so sure that the prince of Rome is still confined to the abyss. The part of Rev 17:8 that says "is about to come up out of the abyss" may have already happened. A lot of speculation without tangible scriptural support. The power of Rome was at its height when John wrote Revelation, which would not be the case if its spiritual leader had already been cast into the Abyss. Your arguments quite frankly rely on a form of circular reasoning, wherein you are presuming your conclusion first, then shaping your understanding of biblical passages to fit your conclusion. In contrast, at the time of John, the saying “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss and go to destruction" could very well apply to Azazel and the other angels cast into the Abyss at the time of the Flood. They were not present on earth at the time of John, but will ascend out of the Abyss when it is opened at the 5th Trumpet. Thus Revelation, Jude, 2 Peter, and Genesis 6 agree perfectly with the account told in the Book of Enoch of the fall, imprisonment in the Abyss, and prophesied arising of the fallen angels in the End Times, and their going into an eternal destruction of fire. Which is to say, the scriptures provide the foundation for the conclusion, not the other way around.

Been teaching this till I'm blue in the hand... There will be an earthly remnant of Jacob, and there will be a raptured Church. Two different groups, two different promises: one of race, one of grace. Anyone who does not know that there is to be an earthly remnant of Jacob simply does not understand the manifold plain OT prophecies of the End Times. Mic. 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples as dew from Jehovah, as showers upon the grass, that tarry not for man, nor wait for the sons of men. 8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep; who, if he go through, treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and there is none to deliver. 9 Let thy hand be lifted up above thine adversaries, and let all thine enemies be cut off. 10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and will destroy thy chariots: 11 and I will cut off the cities of thy land, and will throw down all thy strongholds. ...15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath upon the nations which hearkened not.

Great Question!!! A Better Question: How did the Magi know when....? They were a Hereditary PriestHood with their Roots in Babylon/Persia. Who fore-knew when The Messiah would be on the Scene? .........Daniel. (Dan 9:25-26) Who was put in Charge of this Hereditary PriestHood for a Time? .......Daniel. Obviously, I can't support this Scripturally. Do I need to Dan. 2:48 Then the king made Daniel great, and gave him many great gifts, and made him to rule over the whole province of Babylon, and to be chief governor over all the wise men of Babylon. Dan. 4:9 O Belteshazzar [= Daniel], master of the magician-astrologers, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. Dan. 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made him master of the magicians, enchanters, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

If the prince of Rome is currently in the Abyss, then how and when did he get there? No biblical or apocryphal evidence for this. The Book of Enoch, as well as Greek and other mythologies, tells us who are in the Abyss/Tartarus: the angels who left their first estate before the days of Noah, intermarried with human woman, were cursed by God, and cast into the Abyss at the time of the Flood, when great rents were opened in the earth. They were cast there by Michael and other archangels at the command of God. The worst of them was named Azazel, the same one mentioned in Leviticus 10. That spirit is most likely the King of the Abyss. Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day. 2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment… Enoch 9:5-6 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… Semhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

Like I said, no more need for discussion. Others can read the our posts and make up their own minds. I'm always good with that.

Hope this gets it sort of... LD: The "son of Perdition" I see as synonymous with the false prophet. We disagree on this. The SoP, according to 2 Thes. 2 (in which Paul is describing events leading up to Christ returning in the clouds for his Church), will meet his demise when His Presence so appears. In contrast, the false prophet does not meet his demise until Christ descends all the way to earth to defeat the nations gathered against him, led by Beast and False Prophet. Thus, SoP is defeated early, the FP is defeated late: two different beings. WL: The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5th Trumpet. The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them. LD: The fifth trumpet is part of the seventh seal and well into the time of God's judgment. The fifth trumpet is a locust plague which says nothing about the release of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.The beast is never referred to as the "King angel of the Abyss". You're trying to associate Rev 17:8 with the fifth trumpet and the association isn't there. WL: We disagree on this also. At the 5th Trumpet, "I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit/Abyss. And he opened the bottomless pit/Abyss... they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit/Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. Rev. 9:1-2, 11 Who else would be "the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss", if not this angel? One of his lesser subjects? Unlikely. No one else could ascend out of the Abyss before this time, because it was locked up. You've supplied no alternate answer, just denied mine. WL: The Lord comes after the 6th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals. LD: If you look at Matthew 24:29-31 closely, two different things are seen: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 Compare the orange with the sixth seal. People see the throne room scene, or at least part of it. What is the sign of the Son of Man? The lamb. The orange part correlates to the sixth seal and the green part to the seventh trumpet / bowl. The Sign of the Son of Man is the Cross. In the sky. When a pole reversal takes place at the 6th Seal, causing the stars to appear to fall from heaven in a swirling motion, and every mountain and island to move out of their places amidst the great quaking of the earth... then Crux, the great constellation of the Southern Cross, will appear over Jerusalem and all of the northern hemisphere. And Jesus will then descend in the clouds for his Church, and every eye will see him, and most men will wail and mourn and hide themselves in the earth. Exactly what is portrayed in Rev. 6:12-16 & 1:7, and Matt. 24:29-31, and Is. 2:10-21, and Heb. 12:18-28.

As an addenda to the above, from another article: Isaiah 2:10-21 also speaks of this time. Verse 19: They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. And also Rev. 1:7: Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him. which brings us, conclusively, to Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:30: … then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All of these verses refer to the time of the 6th seal, when men hide themselves from the Presence/Face/Coming of the Lord, after the manifestation of heavenly and earthly cataclysms and signs.

Sounds like the right diagnosis. And clearly you have more awareness of these things than most. What you need to do is to take dominion over the premises in the name of Christ. Preferably, bring in someone with experience with such matters, and go room to room, praying in the authority of the name of Christ, that any spirits not of Him must depart. These prayers must call upon the Lord in true faith, nothing doubting, which is why it is helpful to have someone with experience in these things take the lead.

Enoch, you are shotgunning me with questions, without seriously considering what I've written. I don't see this as reasoned debate, just a single-focus mindset. I'll respond to one point. Why does the Rapture take place at the sixth seal? Because Jesus says in Matt. 24 that he comes for his elect "immediately after" the great tribulation, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysmic signs that follow. We see the very same cataclysms taking place at the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12-14. Then in verses 14-17, people "hid[e] themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! The reason they say this is, obviously, because they have seen them, God and Christ. This is the fulfillment of Rev. 1:7: Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. That is what the men of 7:14-17 are doing, mourning because they've seen him coming in the clouds for his bride/Church/elect, who are thereafter shown to be in heaven in Rev. 7. This is exactly what Paul was speaking about in Heb. 12:22-25: ...you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” The ones who fear this coming in the clouds are the ones who turn away from it. That is what those men of the 6th seal are doing, turning away and hiding in the earth at the very time of Christ's coming in the clouds to take up his Church to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. These are the raptured saints of Rev. 7. Enoch, if you cannot understand this foundational truth about Revelation, then you cannot understand the sequence of events in the rest of the book. If so, no more need for discussion.

Technically, “the great day of his wrath came-and-continues” (aorist indicative verb) right after the 6th Seal is opened, but you're correct that the wrath is withheld until the 144,000 are sealed, and the ones “come out of the GT.” Those latter ones are not the martyrs of the 5th Seal, however, but are the raptured elect. The martyrs are “given white robes,” because of their righteous act of accepting martyrdom for Christ: “for fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Rev. 19:8. In contrast, those who are raptured must “wash their [own] robes and make them white,” indicating active repentance on their part. This cleansing was symbolized by the purification underwent by Esther and the other virgins, before they were allowed into the Presence of the King. Fully agree with you up to this point. Disagree in part. The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5th Trumpet. The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them. The Beast will arise after the chaos of the GT has destroyed world order, and he will establish a New World Order – for the price of total obedience. The main person that brings on the GT is the Son of Perdition, “whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and destroy with the brightness of his parousia/Presence.” 2 Thes. 2:8 The Lord comes after the 6th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals. This is when “every eye shall see” his Presence manifested. Only then will the Lord begin to manifest his wrath. Dan. 11:40-45's king of the north, who “shall plant the tabernacles of his pavilion...at the glorious holy mountain,” but who shall then “come to his end,” is the Son of Perdition committing the Abomination of Desolation on the Temple Mount. This “king” creates a world crisis, Dan. 11:44, which brings to pass “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” 12:1 This is clearly the Great Tribulation: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt. 24:21 “At that time Michael shall stand up.” Dan. 12:1 This is when the war in heaven against Satan and his angels, spearheaded by Michael, takes place. Rev. 12:7 To sum it all up in a nutshell: the Judgment of God is carried out in four sequential stages, over four levels of authority: Neshamah/Breath: The judgment of the heavenly elohim, including Satan and his angels. Rev.12:7f., Ps. 82, Is. 24:21, etc. Ruach/Spirit: The tribulation/trial/purification of the Church, a spiritual body. Accomplished during the 7 Seals. Nephesh/Soul: The “time of Jacob's trouble.” Jer. 30:7, Dan. 7, etc., being the 1260 days/42/months/3½ times of Revelation and Daniel. Accomplished during the 7 Trumpets. Basar/Flesh: The Judgment of the heathen nations. Rev. 16, 19:11f.; Ezek. 38-39, Zech 14. Accomplished during the 7 Bowls. God's Judgment will occur in four levels, because He will judge everyone according to his level of understanding and authority. “To whom much is given, much will be required.”

It is plain, of course, that Beauty is a mother, for all have drunk from her breast. I have seen the long line of convinced sinners turned around by her caress. Oh, I too have felt her sacred smile. It was poured, poured into my own abyss when just a small apocalypse ago she mercifully entered in. … Wisdom too is a woman – but old and plain. At first glance she is a maiden aunt. Few desire her. Few have discovered her great secret, the sweetness of her glance. … It is the elder you should court. In time of locusts and brittle twigs, when bushes of holy fire refuse to ignite, and your heart is a bowl emptied by cold wind, all your grain scattered and your soul become sterility, she will sit by the void where you have been planted, where no word, no voice, is heard. Where only an absurd wind contradicts the bad news, she will be your companion, for she is the patroness of all inhospitable soil. [-- that is, wilderness.] Sophia House, pp. 204-5; a 2005 novel by Michael D. O'Brien, Catholic writer/painter/mystic. It is brought forth in the novel, as in Rev. 12 and Ezek. 19, that Beautiful mother and plain Wisdom are really the same woman, depending upon whether her children are living in glory, or are living in barren wilderness. That is, whether in heaven, or on earth. Rev. 12 shows us that it will be both.

Who's The Virgin Bride of Christ? So the Virgin Bride "ascends" to heaven @ HIS Coming? Well when Jesus RETURNS HE's "Descending" from Heaven to the Earth. The Virgin Bride is "Ascending" to Heaven @ the Same Time. See the problem? Also, Please show this scenario @ HIS Coming.... (Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." From the Above passage "The Wife" is already in Heaven Before HIS Return. Moreover, She Follows HIM with HIS armies when HE does Return (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white). How Can She Be both: Ascending into Heaven when He's "Descending" (as you say) AND Be in Heaven before HE Returns and Follows HIM while HE'S Returning? Lets figure the above out before moving on to this.... Those who did not fall into this category at the Lord's coming, but thereafter have come to believe in Him, are His servants on earth who wait for his return from the wedding: these being "the remnant of Jacob" spoken of in a number of OT prophecies. That latter coming is that which takes place in Rev. 19, Zech. 14, and Ezek 38-39. Note verse 12:37 from Luke which you didn't quote: 12:37 Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. Rev. 19:17 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. Ezek 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [etc.] Enoch,Apologies for the delay in responding, I only get online every 2-3 days. The Virgin Bride = Church of Christ = His Body waits for His return/Coming in the clouds/air, and is caught up to meet Him in the clouds, to be ever with the Lord, being taken to the place prepared for her/them. This great multitude is first seen in heaven in Rev. 7. This takes place after the 6th Seal is opened : every eye on earth, and among the dead, and among the ones in heaven, see his coming. In their faces, he takes his bride into the clouds of heaven.. A remnant of Jacob remains on the earth, because they were ignorant of, or not ready for, the time of his coming. These are the children of the Woman/Mother of Rev. 12, who flee to the wilderness where there is the place prepared for her/them. The 144,000 are preeminent of these, akin to the 70 elders who briefly entered the Presence on Mt. Sinai with Moses, but then returned below, while Moses and Joshua remained in the Presence. Christ's assertion of authority over the earth occurs later : the last being the one in Rev. 19:11-21 = 6th and 7th Bowls = Ezek. 38-39 = Zech. 14 = Armageddon and the battle for Jerusalem. These mark the time when the Lord puts his feet on the Mount of Olives, like he did the first time that he entered Jerusalem as its King. This time he is playing for keeps. Everything in Rev. 19 up to verse 11 is review of past events up to the time of Armageddon. In :7, the phrase "his wife made herself ready" uses an aorist verb, indicating past and continuous action, not present tense. Moreover, She Follows HIM with HIS armies when HE does Return (arrayed in fine linen, clean and white). This quote from verse 14 says armies in heaven, not bride. There will be others up there besides the bride, you know. Like the dude Michael, and all his homies.

Argosy, while I agree with much of what you write, in this statement of yours I believe you are mistaken: "Unless you can show me how the Kurds migrated into the area, its the Kurds themselves who are the descendents of the Assyrians." Actually, there is much better evidence that the Kurds are the descendants of the Medes -- same territory as of old, and likely their language -- who are very much End Times players. E.g. Is:13:17, Jer. 51:11. Re: ISIS and its future, I believe they may be part of the dragons of Arabia spoken of in the Apocalypse of 2 Esdras: 2 Esdras 15:28 "Behold, a terrifying sight, appearing from the east! 29 The nations of the dragons of Arabia [i.e., Sunni peoples from all nations, which make up ISIS] shall come out with many chariots, and from the day that they set out, their hissing shall spread over the earth, so that all who hear them fear and tremble. [now taking place] 30 Also the Carmonians [province of Iran], raging in wrath, shall go forth like wild boars of the forest, and with great power they shall come, and engage them in battle, and shall devastate a portion of the land of the Assyrians [now ruled by ISIS] with their teeth. [iran has said it will intervene in Iraq if ISIS pushes too far east] 31 And then the dragons, remembering their origin, shall become still stronger; and if they combine in great power and turn to pursue them, 32 then these shall be disorganized and silenced by their power, and shall turn and flee. 33 And from the land of the Assyrians an enemy in ambush [quite likely the Medes = Kurds] shall beset them and destroy one of them, and fear and trembling shall come upon their army, and indecision upon their kings. 34 Behold, clouds from the east, and from the north to the south; and their appearance is very threatening, full of wrath and storm. 35 They shall dash against one another and shall pour out a heavy tempest upon the earth, and their own tempest; and there shall be blood from the sword as high as a horse’s belly 36 and a man’s thigh and a camel’s hock. 37 And there shall be fear and great trembling on the earth; those who see that wrath shall be horror-stricken, and they shall be seized with trembling. 38 After that, heavy storm clouds shall be stirred up from the south, and from the north, and another part from the west. 39 But the winds from the east shall prevail over the cloud that was raised in wrath, and shall dispel it; and the tempest that was to cause destruction by the east wind shall be driven violently toward the south and west. 40 Great and mighty clouds, full of wrath and tempest, shall rise and destroy all the earth and its inhabitants, and shall pour out upon every high and lofty place a terrible tempest, 41 fire and hail and flying swords and floods of water, so that all the fields and all the streams shall be filled with the abundance of those waters. 42 They shall destroy cities and walls, mountains and hills, trees of the forests, and grass of the meadows, and their grain. 43 And they shall go on steadily to Babylon, and shall destroy her. 44 They shall come to her and surround her; they shall pour out the tempest and all its wrath upon her; then the dust and smoke shall go up to heaven, and all who are about her shall wail over her. 45 And those who survive shall serve those who have destroyed it. 46 And you, Asia [Minor = Turkey], who share in the glamour of Babylon and the glory of her person— 47 woe to you, miserable wretch! For you have made yourself like her; you have decked out your daughters in harlotry to please and glory in your lovers, who have always lusted after you. 48 You have imitated that hateful harlot in all her deeds and devices; therefore God says, 49 “I will send evils upon you, widowhood, poverty, famine, sword, and pestilence, to lay waste your houses and bring you to destruction and death. 50 And the glory of your power shall wither like a flower, when the heat rises that is sent upon you. 51 You shall be weakened like a wretched woman who is beaten and wounded, so that you cannot receive your mighty lovers. 52 Would I have dealt with you so violently,” says the Lord, 53 “If you had not always killed my chosen people, exulting and clapping your hands and talking about their death when you were drunk? 54 Trick out the beauty of your face! 55 The reward of a harlot is in your bosom, therefore you shall receive your recompense. 56 As you will do to my chosen people,” says the Lord, “so God will do to you, and will hand you over to adversities. 57 Your children shall die of hunger, and you shall fall by the sword, and your cities shall be wiped out, and all your people who are in the open country shall fall by the sword. 58 And those who are in the mountains and highlands shall perish of hunger, and they shall eat their own flesh in hunger for bread and drink their own blood in thirst for water. 59 Unhappy above all others, you shall come and suffer fresh afflictions. 60 And as they pass they shall wreck the hateful city [prob. = Istanbul], and shall destroy a part of your land and abolish a portion of your glory, as they return from devastated Babylon. 61 And you shall be broken down by them like stubble, and they shall be like fire to you. 62 And they shall devour you and your cities, your land and your mountains; they shall burn with fire all your forests and your fruitful trees. 63 They shall carry your children away captive, and shall plunder your wealth, and abolish the glory of your countenance.” [seems to be the conclusion of the 6th Trumpet period] Anyway, an alternate scenario to consider as we watch the news.

My answer to the original question: The Virgin Bride of Christ ascends to the heavenly wedding at His Coming. Those who did not fall into this category at the Lord's coming, but thereafter have come to believe in Him, are His servants on earth who wait for his return from the wedding: these being "the remnant of Jacob" spoken of in a number of OT prophecies. That latter coming is that which takes place in Rev. 19, Zech. 14, and Ezek 38-39. Note verse 12:37 from Luke which you didn't quote: 12:37 Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. Rev. 19:17 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. Ezek 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [etc.]

Yup. In an old (ca. 1970s) book by Vincent Gaddis on this this subject, he concluded (after presenting the evidence) that the Americas have been a racial melting pot for thousands of years. Regarding NA cities, the largest one was right around St. Louis, the capital of the old Algonquin race, who were later driven out by invaders that came up the MIssissippi River beginning ca. 400s AD. The most powerful clan of that people, the Turtle/Dacotah, established a huge empire based from there, which was destroyed in civil war ca. 1000 AD. In Mexico, there were many large cities in the Valley of Mexico (their sites now all consumed by the Mexico City megalopolis), and at Teotihuacan north of the valley, and elsewhere throughout Meso-America, dating to pre-Christian times. It is likely that the many of the SW US Pueblo peoples were descendants of these earlier civilizations, because they speak a related language (Uto-Aztecan/Nahuan) and have some related religious beliefs.

The answer is not either/or, but all. This is because the restoration of the nation-state of Judah, as well as the nation-state of Israel, was a process that took place over time, as determined by the 7 Times prophecy of Leviticus 26. The following is derived from my book Sacred History, Sacred Times. It's a bit long, but meaty. 1. Leviticus 26:3-45 is a prophecy written by Moses to the Israelites. It contains both a blessing and a curse. In the blessing, God promised the Israelites that if they remained faithful to him and his commandments, he would multiply the harvests of their fields, and would give them peace in their lands and power over their enemies; and the Lord himself would walk among them. In the curse, however, God promised that if the Israelites forsook him and his commandments, he would set his face against them, destroy their harvests, and give them over to sickness, sorrow, death, and the hands of their enemies. This punishment was to be progressive. After the initial description of the punishment, each successive wave of woes is prefaced by the phrase "seven times...for your sins." This phrase is repeated fourfold, in verses 18, 21, 24, and 28. The final punishment of 7 times concludes with the curse, "I will make your cities waste...and I will bring the land into desolation...and I will scatter you among the heathen...and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. … Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land." Lev. 26:31-33, 38, 34 2. God also provided a remedy for his curse if the Israelites were to repent of their sins and return to God and his ways. This remedy is stated in Lev. 26:40f. and also Deut. 4:49f.: "But if from thence [among the nations] thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things [woes] are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shall be obedient...he will not forsake thee..." "Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. [However, t]he land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them; and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity..." Deut. 4:29-31; Lev. 26:42-43 3. This curse has been and is still being fulfilled, progressively. Both the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were progressively wasted and finally extinguished. The duration of their curse was to be for 7 times, which equal 2520 sacred years. The culmination of this curse has therefore taken place in modern times, "the latter days," beginning with the era of the (re)discovery of the Americas. 4. God's primary covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob promised them three primary things: 1) "I will make of thee a great nation...to multiply as the stars of heaven...[and to] spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south"; 2) "...in thee and in they seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed"; 3) "[a]nd I will give unto thee, and to they seed after thee...all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Gen. 12:2-3; 26:3-4; 28:13-14; 17:8 These are the covenants that have been and are being progressively fulfilled in the latter days. According to my understanding, their ultimate fulfillment, or at least the fulfillment of the curse, will not be concluded until ca. 2057 AD. [One sacred year-length was recognized throughout all of the ancient world. It consisted of precisely 360 days. The best review of the ancient use of the 360-day year is found in Immanuel Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision; New York, MacMillan, 1950: ch. 8, "The year of 360 Days," 330-59. Also see "Calendar"; Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings; N.Y.: Scribner's, 1921: vol. 3. This work uses the Mayan Long Count's reckoning of sacred years/tuns. The LC is the only calendar of the ancient day count that survived into modern times. "Mayan" in the title is actually a misnomer, because the LC long pre-dated the Mayan culture in Meso-America.] Fulfillments of 7 Times Aug. 8, 1878 Petach Tikvah was founded, the first latter-day Jewish agricultural settlement in Palestine. In 1879, it produced "the first Jewish harvest" in that land to be sold in Jerusalem "since the destruction of the Temple by the Romans" in 70 AD.1 Three years later, in 1882 AD/5947 AM, the first large Aliyahs ("Ascents"/Returns) of Jews to their ancient homeland began. Seven times before 1878-79 AD, in 606 BC, the first dispersion of Jews from Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar took place. Apparently three years later, in 603 BC, Nebuchadnezzar sent the enemies of Judah against the land, by which substantial numbers of Jews began to be "removed." See 2 Kings 24:1-3; also Book 1, 602 BC Commentary. In sum, 7 times after the beginning of the final decline and dispersion of the Kingdom of Judah, the Jews began to regather and return to their ancient homeland. It's also significant that in 637 AD, exactly 3-1/2 times = 1260 sacred years after the Jews began to be dispersed and before they began to gather -- that is, in the very depths of God's curse -- Jerusalem fell to the forces of Islam. Aug. 29, 1897 The First Zionist Congress convened in Basel, Switzerland. This congress was established to promote the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland. It was the first independent governing body by and for all of the Jews since 588 BC. Seven times earlier, in mid-588 BC, Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, and the Kingdom of Judah was extinguished. The remnant of Jews who'd been allowed to remain in the land fled to Egypt in late 588 BC. In sum, independent Jewish self-government was restored exactly 7 times after it had been extinguished. May 14, 1948 The Jews in Palestine proclaimed and established an independent state of Israel. This was made possible by the United Nations, which sanctioned the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian-Arab states on Nov. 29, 1947. Seven times earlier, in 538 BC, Babylon fell to King Cyrus of Persia, and the Babylonian Empire was thereafter broken up into provinces of the Medo-Persian Empire. In 537 BC, Jews were allowed to return to Judah and Jerusalem and establish their own vassal province. In sum, 7 times after the vassal province of Judah was established, the free state of Israel was founded. Both cases were separated by 70 sacred years from their respective initial events in 606 BC and 1878-79 AD. See ... Jer. 25:8-12. June 5-10, 1967 The Six-Day War against Israel by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria took place. On June 7, the Jews recaptured the Temple Mount and the Old City of Jerusalem. This occurred 70 sacred years after the First Zionist Congress in 1897 AD. Seven times earlier, the Jews began to rebuild the Temple after God so commanded by the prophet Haggai in August or September 519 BC. It had been 70 sacred years since the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Babylonians in August 588 BC. In December or January 519/18 BC, God promised to begin again to bless the people. Hag. 2:10-19 This was 70 sacred years after the last remnant of the Jews had left Judah to go to Egypt in November or December 588 BC. Sept. 4, 1999 The Israeli and Palestinian governments signed an agreement that committed both sides to a Final Status resolution of their issues by Sept. 2000. Chief among the disputes was that both claimed sovereignty over Jerusalem. Talks failed, and on Sept. 28, 2000, a violent conflict erupted on Jerusalem's Temple Mount. In this bitter conflict, the Jews have had the upper hand. They had inflicted far more casualties than suffered, and strengthened their control over Jerusalem and all of the land. Seven times earlier, "in the beginning of [the] reign" of Xerxes/Ahasuerus, 486 BC, adversaries of the Jews "wrote...[unto the king] an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem." Ezra 4:6 Ahasuerus, dealing with other revolts in the Empire, sent Judah's adversaries to sack Jerusalem, burn the Temple, and kill and enslave Jews throughout the land. The Jews were accused because they had anointed a king over them, in defiance of the Empire.2 Oct. 5, 1927 – Sept. 28, 1928 Seven times before this year, Ezra received his commission from the king, and returned to Judah to establish the Law of Moses in the land. July 28, 2040 – July 22, 2041 Seven times before this year, Nehemiah received his commission from the king, and returned to Jerusalem to rebuild it. ca. 2056-57 This year apparently comes 7 times = 10 x 252 sacred years after the last event in the Tanach (Old Testament), when Nehemiah suddenly and unexpectedly returned to Jerusalem to purge the city and the Temple of the sins committed therein, ca. 428 BC. Malachi 3:1b-5ff.: [T]he Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his Temple...and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. ... And I will come near to you to judgment... This year also comes 8 x 252 = 2016 sacred years after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD/4109 AM; and 16 x 252 = 4032 sacred years after the Battle of Nations in 1935 BC/2093 AM, at which time Jerusalem (Salem) is first mentioned in the Scriptures. Gen. 14:1f., 18 1. Meyer Levin, The Story of Israel; N.Y.: Putnam's, 1966: 48-49. 2. Julian Morgenstern, "Jerusalem -- 485 B.C."; Hebrew Union College Annual; vol. XXVII (1956): 101-79; XXVIII (1957): 15-47; XXXI (1960): 1-29. This conflict is described in Psalms 74 [see esp. vs. 8], 79, 83 [see esp. vs. 2-8], Lamentations, and elsewhere.

Because my discussion with Sevenseas seems to be generating more heat than light, I'm ending my part of it here. I'll repost my questions and statements about offices of authority established in the Church: And I will repeat: this has nothing to do with whether women witness their faith to others. I repeat, more power to them for doing so. Prophesying and manifesting spiritual gifts? No problem. But the question remains whether or not Jesus and the Father established men only in offices of authority in the Church and Tabernacle, or both men and women. Each one of us will have to decide for themselves this issue. And the Lord will reveal his will about our judgment of this matter when he returns, and provide rewards accordingly. Regarding the quote above, posted by FresnoJoe, where Jesus said, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:" -- Jesus here was speaking to his 11 Apostles, which he had ordained to ministry.

I never made any such "claim." This is slander. Regarding the women who served in the early Church, yes they did. But not in positions of called ministry. When Priscilla spoke of the Gospel, it says she did it in her home, not in the assembly of the congregation; not as an elder of the Church, but as a believer. More power to her. But I sincerely doubt if she ever baptized anyone, or offered any of the other sacraments. No one in authority would have allowed it. And you still haven't answered my questions.

Well, I wouldn't go that far...but here is some background: The heavenly chariot/merkabah is seen as the vehicle ["God has one awesome set of wheels!" , I heard one brother say] by which the Holy One lowers himself to interact with inhabitants of the lower worlds. The seraphim are the angels of the highest level of the three here spoken of. (There are three upper worlds/heavens, according to Hebraic teaching. Paul seems to refer to this when speaking about being "caught up to the third heaven," 2 Cor. 12:2.) The chayot/kherubim ("living creatures/cherubim") are angels of the middle level; and the ophanim/"wheels" are angels of our world. In the case here, the Holy One has lowered himself into our humble realm, both to converse with Ezekiel, and to judge Jerusalem. [YHWH] maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire... Ps. 104:4 Seraphim traditionally are seen as composed of fire, cherubim of spirit/wind.

Men have been given sole authority over the sanctuary of the Spirit. That is just simply not to be found in the Bible anywhere. It is found by example: in the Mosaic Tabernacle, the Temple at Jerusalem, and in the ministry of the early Church established by Christ and his Apostles. Men only were called to the ministerial offices of God: Aaronic, Levitical, Apostolic, Seventy, Deaconate. According to the biblical record, not a single woman ever filled these offices. Please answer the questions of my previous post.

1) Who is the woman ? 2) What does clothed in the sun , moon under feet and 12 crowns mean ? 3) When did this happen ? 4) Where is the wilderness ? 5) What is meant by thousand two hundred and threescore days ? 3) When. Jesus told John, Write the things which thou hast seen [past], and the things which are [present], and the things which shall be hereafter [future]. Rev. 1:19 “The things seen” are told in 1:20. “The things which are” are told in Rev. 2-3: the letters to the 7 churches of John's time. Then, beginning in Rev. 4:1, John is told: After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev. 4:1 Everything John was shown from 4:1 onward is future from his day: this includes everything in chapter 12. The birth and ascent of the Manchild seen in verse 5 is future (although the birth and ascent of Jesus was of the same pattern and type). Jesus himself tells us who the Manchild shall be: [H]e that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:26-27 The Manchild, a collective body of the elect-of-the-elect overcomers, will participate in the casting down of Satan and his angels from heaven, 12:7-11. And they overcame him [satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12:11 This cannot refer to Michael and his angels, only to men. 1) Who is the Woman? Like the Manchild, the Woman-with-child is a mystical body. Not the Church, which is a Virgin Bride. And not the race of Israel, which is flesh-and-blood. Western left-brain Protestant Christianity has largely ignored any concept of the Feminine Divine, even though the Adamic race was “made in Elohim's image, male and female.” Catholicism has carnalized the Feminine Divine into the person of Mary. Only mystical Judaism, and to some extent mystical Christianity, have spoken of the Feminine Divine. Hebraic tradition says that one of the attributes of the One God is the emotional desire to form, gestate, bring forth and nurture living creatures. This tradition also says that when Adam and Eve were cast out of God's garden into the earthly wilderness, this Divine Feminine either went with them or regularly visited them, in order to nurture her children as any mother would. The most well-known name for her is the Shekhinah, the feminine Presence/form of the Divine. This mystical Woman/mother – emotionally bound to the nurturing of her children, and to their upbringing in wisdom, righteousness, and maturity – is spoken of in Ezekiel: What [is] thy mother? A lioness: she lay down among lions, she nourished her whelps among young lions. … Thy mother [is] like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters. And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches. But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them. And now she [is] planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground. 19:2, 10-13 Notice here how she again goes into the wilderness when her offspring are cast down/out. 4) Where is the wilderness? The wilderness is always a place apart from the comforts of civilization, wherein God tries and tests his people. There he separates and rejects the rebels, and teaches the obedient his torah/doctrine/Way. The wilderness is an unpopulated or sparsely populated place, generally a desert and/or mountainous region. (In our land, many visionaries have foreseen it to be the Intermountain West, which is just such a place.) 2) Clothed with the sun. … his [Jesus'] countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev. 1:16 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. …the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:4, 9 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal. 3:27 …let us put on the armour of light. Rom. 13:12 2) the moon under her feet… The moon is symbolic of the types and shadows of the Mosaic Law. All of the OT feast days derive their times from the position of the moon. “Under her feet”: the symbolism appear to be twofold. First, the Mosaic Law represents an earthly level of spirituality. Second, it represents a foundation/basis for upper levels of wisdom and sanctification. 2) on her head a crown/stephanos of 12 stars. In the NT, a stephanos invariably symbolizes honors and authority achieved through overcoming, gaining the victory: a “stephanos of rejoicing,” “of righteousness,” “of life,” “of glory.” 1 Thes. 2:19; 2 Tim. 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Pet. 5:4 This type of victory only became possible after the advent of Christ, through the reception of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the 12 stars in the stephanos represent Apostolic authority to overcome the world, pride, and the flesh. The other NT word for crown, diadema, refers to regal authority-by-descent. Only Satan, the Beast, and Christ wear diadems. The Beast will receive his crowns and throne from Satan (Rev. 13:1-2). Satan gained his from Adam, to whom it was originally authorized (Gen. 1:26, 28), before Adam submitted himself to the serpent's word. Christ overcame Satan, thus earning back regal authority over Earth. (Only Christ is able to wear both stephanos and diadema.) 5) What is meant by 1260 days? 1260 literal days. While there have been day-for-a-year fulfillments of this period in type, these are now past. The 1260 days/42 months/3½ times take place during the period of the 7 Trumpets, and the Mouth of the Beast (Rev. 13:5) = Daniel's Little Horn (Dan. 7:25), and the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:3). Jeremiah 30:7 calls it “the time of Jacob's trouble.” This is “the remnant of Jacob” spoken of in many OT prophecies. When Christ appears in the clouds to take up the elect/chosen of his Church, “every eye shall see him.” Rev. 1:7 At that time, all of earthly Israel will see their true Messiah. Many of them will undergo 1260 days of wilderness trials, to become either submissive and sanctified, or separated and purged. At the 7th Trumpet, Christ will then begin to establish his earthly kingdom. So, beginning at the 7th Trumpet, …the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off. Micah 5:8-9 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time [= 1260 days]. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Dan.7:25-27

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3 Note that this passage says nothing about the called ministry. It only speaks about being heirs of salvation in Christ. Presuming that it speaks about the ministry is adding to the Word. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ... Eph. 4:11-12 Here Paul says that other gifts and callings are not for all, only for some. Why did Jesus not call a single woman to be an Apostle or Seventy? Why, likewise, did the Apostles not call a single woman to ministerial office? People who say that we now should do this should provide a plausible reason why the Lord and his chosen Apostles did not do this. Were they sexist? Were they afraid of public opinion? Until someone can provide a convincing answer to these questions, it seems mighty presumptuous to go contrary to the example and pattern set by our Lord. The Lord continually rebuked the Pharisees for presumptiously adding their own teachings to the Law of Moses. Beware of making the same mistake.

There is no biblical evidence that either Jesus or his Apostles ever anointed a woman to be an apostle, seventy, bishop/overseer, teacher, or deacon. That is to say, positions of ministerial authority in the Church. Jesus was clearly not a sexist. Jesus and his apostles set the example: who are we to think we know better? (The gift of prophecy is not a position of authority in the Church. Its role is to deliver messenges from God. The sex of the messenger is irrelevant.) Secondly (and this is my personal opinion based on both biblical and extra-biblical sources), there are two primary ministries that God has established in mankind: the ministry wherein spiritual children are brought into the world, and the ministry where bodily children are brought into the world. Woman have been given sole authority over the sanctuary of the body, the womb. Men have been given sole authority over the sanctuary of the Spirit. One of the primary reasons why the world has been descending into chaos is that men have imposed their will over the ministry of the womb, and women have imposed their will over the ministry of the Spirit. The Prince of this World, IMHO, is the author of this confusion, because he seeks to pervert and corrupt everything that God has established. God gave each sex a role with its unique mission, and we would all get along much better, and each be more personally fulfilled, if we would stick to our God-given purposes for which each sex was created.