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Thank you. Is there something about the OP you would like to discuss?

Yes I was quoting you from Feb post in : Posted February 6 : What if By zorgblar I was scanning thru old pages to see what kind of reactions I might expect from WCF members, you seemed to relish the idea of knowing. When I read all of the threads in this section of WCF I see that over and over again we are discussing 'around' the topic of how miracles really work between Christian ideologies and with nonbelievers. The YEC position is a miracle by definition. The right explanation explains everything and is what says it is from God and glorifies God. It is not power to perform it is understanding and faith(see enoch2021) should you be called to do so by God( no testing please). I cant imagine that it would be easy to assimilate and I do mean assimilate. It may only take 2 seconds to explain but wrestling with the mental consequences is another matter entirely. For instance- I have already given an account of the natural way to build the ark. It is in complete conflict with the wooden structure in Kentucky. If they heard what I said what would they hold fast to- a version of truth or their very public presentation? Does having constucted it 'prove' that it occurred that way? Are both 'answers' equally valid? If there is more than one answer then will we sit with scientists, OEC'ers, etc (like prostitutes and tax collectors) and enjoy fruits from their vines - if they are good and produce salvation? The Pope said "Nope" to the need for strict interpretation (by allowing Big Bang and evolution data) and thus my answer is "Yes" from that direction I suppose.

February: "" It would only be COOL for us Believers I think ,so we could see the looks on the scientists faces when thy saw what the rest of us have always known without a shadow of doubt""- Kwik

Are you suggesting that any miracle today would be because of Satanic influence? Therefore a Scriptural interpretation (just using the testimony) that explains how the miracles are plausible is undermining the Word rather than upholding it in 21st century reality?

An adequate explanation of the miracles should: 1. Reveal something that glorifies God - 2.Be a useful tool to address doubt as it arises inside Christians and non believers. 3. Promote equitable communications between factions of Christianity that have arisen in the course of time and betweeen individual expressions of interpretations of Scripture. 4. Be consistent as an explanatory structure for all (or as many as and as thoroughly as possible) accounts in both OT and NT (closed canon). 5. Be as consistent as possible with known physics and Scripture- this is a very uncomfortable area as neither group likes things to be bent in any particular direction and dont recognize bending the rules as an effective method- this leads to #6. 6. Nothing removes a decision by faith belief- though I might bend them towards one another a 'gap' will exist as it is not going to give a formula to calculate to 35 decimal places nor be the active voice of God. It is a means or tool to engender a 'spark' of faith 7. 8. Im leaving the floor open to your further suggestions and criticsms. I fully realize that many here do not need to hear any such thing (blessings!) and may react negatively to any suggested process. However there are an equal number of individuals here, out there, that would benefit. All I can say is know me by the fruit. As a start to such an explanation I sense that a unique formula exists for the salvation of many. First the lintels and posts of the ark are sealed with pitch (word unknown) which is sap (tree blood) or tar (prehistoric hydrocarbon of life)to protect the firstborn from the "wrath of God" (1), then in Egypt is it lambs blood on the lintels to protect the first born from the wrath of God, then it is human blood on the cross (beam) to protect everyone who believes in Him from judgement, then it is the blood of an innocent girl , Annabel Beam, who spreads her own blood accidentally inside a tree (Beam)and is miraculously healed, there is a movie, a scientific review, and hopefully many are saved. (1) Remind: This is a sacrifice to fulfill the Law not to appease an angry deity who is also the administer of the law. see my post in Universal Law forum to discuss

Often I read posts that accuse God of various evil acts and I would like to clarify a particular point that I think gets missed .. A sacrifice is meant to appease the Law not God himself, I think. Being the 'is all', 'do all' kind of deity that God is forces us to maintain a conceptualization similar to 'wearing many hats'. Thus it is overlain or superimposed when the administrator of the Law demands justice and was also the creator of that law. It appears as appeasment. This idea of multitasking is justification for a triumvirate (Father Son HS) experience of God at a minimum. It is easier to reason thru natural laws in unemotional ways - such as every action has an equal and opposite reaction-and see that they are inhuman facts. I find , that for my purposes and understanding, Biblical law is an extension of natural law even though it is written in human conceptualizations (ideals) not billard balls. I think a lot of antagonism , angst, etc I read in posts would dissipate if people generally understood this superimposed nature of the divine. Is it that most people arent very good at induction reasoning methods perhaps? Is it easier to blame than figure how it does make sense?

I just read jeremiah 4 in toto and I must say I cannot side with the interpretations. God is allowed to lament the creation that flops. He is deliberately unsaying the words of Gen 1 to make a point because before Him the people have sinned and are faced with His wrath. The rainbow promise prevents Him from acting further but He makes it very clear through this word CHOICE here that He is having that old feeling again. Thats what I hear....disappointment and the inability to see a redemptive spirit in us.

I mean when God changes the lifespan of people at the time of the nephilim mention in Gen 6- this is not a reference to the build time of the ark. the change of rate is 1000::120 - why ignore something like that in our thinking?

I was under the impression that the math used was founded in Peter saying a day with the Lord is a thousand years and a thousand years a day. I see that according to the Word OT Adam, Eve, Noah, Lamech, Methuselah etc all died the day they were born- in that NT measure....then God changes the rate to 120yrs. Did anyone anticipate what the change in rate caused to the way we measure it? Oh so He just knocks off a few years and off we go? Let's rephrase: God changes how He sees things to the new rate. That ought to be something major ..IMO. My interpretation is strange and hinged on recving the OT and NT simultaneously and them having an interconnected nature but I think a major change to nature should occur. I cant imagine an inconsequential act of God..

Can you think about it and go into more detail for us? IS there something specific you hear or see that causes this... It is hard to help without information, except in general ways, and everyone here is dedicated to resolve not cope. For example I don't have a PHD in anything but I know myself and people I talk to often have reactions to things they hear in the Word, especially when it sounds too great to overcome to expect of myself...Such as Enter by the narrow gate and few will find it. It is discouraging to the brain like being asked to run in an Olympic event(with no instructions as to where to begin looking and the word FEW) BUT I believe that the brain likes excuses to keep everything the way it is...even depressing us to keep the status quo so we don't have to listen!. With the Spirit guidance it is achievable. And whats more did you know you can sense things by touch as small as 13 nanometers That's pretty narrow! so my point is the helper and the faculties exist. Acceptance of what you hear without reason or modification is an important step and each step is motion towards God wherever He is rather than what you think. Your Hindsight on this transition will be half the joy!

I just recently had an experience with this that has to be shared....My understanding is sin is forgiven and forgotten. I can t go into detail given the subject but this happened to me this week.... In the middle of working I had a mental flash of myself martyred. It was horrible and I was scared because it preyed on my fears..but I pulled it together and accepted that that might be my fate as a witness. Then in my image I realized it was not me, it was my daughter treated to the same and I had to accept her death as a potential cost as well. And then I saw how the method of martyrdom was a projection/consequence of the actual sin I had committed and NOT about my fears at all, and the imagery became explicit to what I did, and I am helped by the horror/memory to avoid that sin in future settings. Then I understood how that particular thing explained a situation in the Word I never thought of ,but really don't want to go there. By this progression, which I can only attribute to the work of the Spirit, sin was replaced in me by something so much grander -strength ,understanding, and true connectedness to the Spirit- that I don't even feel guilty now! - there's no room. I did and that's over. Guilt, now, would only rob what it has been replaced with..but It takes the right response at each interval and then the understanding comes together that is beyond the initial grasp And I walk away raised up, having been served. And I want to share it with others and I want you to feel this way. That's how I know.

If rounded (as opposed to other surface types) pebbles are related to multiple collisons with other rocks then rivers etc will produce them. Where to from here as it seems obvious your position begins at the top of the process?

Kan, I was troubled but that put me right at peace brother! He is that awesome! thanks for the reminder in a weak moment.

Enoch2021, If in the same river system I observe the action of forces on rocks in the stream bed, taking measurements and making observations of different structures at the surface and cut sections thru the structures to understand the inner structure and do the same to other rivers of various magnitudes and during various flow rates day and night and thru all current season variations and I spare no expense to exhaustive detail then there is the body of knowledge with which to withdraw common features and establish strong correlations as to causation in order to predict that rivers act on rocks in particular manners and cause rounding, today right now clacking them together chipping off little pieces ...then theoretically (= beyond anyone's ability to observe) extend that body of understanding onto observations of rock deposits that have no flowing water in them and hypothesize that the rounded rock formation strongly correlates to a river deposit and predict that there was once a river in that location. Anomalous data might indicate the prediction is incorrect but its value is weighed versus the body of corroborating evidence. If it is too strong a signal (thus lowering the strength of the correlation) then it must be dealt with and an explanation for the anomalous data (which does not fit the predictive model) generated as to why it occurs otherwise different types of corroborating evidence for the river hypothesis must be sought (and developed in currently observable equivalencies that can extrapolate to the hypothesis specific site conditions) in order to restrengthen the original correlation otherwise results of the hypothetical river location must be published at the level of confidence resulting from the anomalous influence. .when I say there are laws it means... I know God and trust that God will make the sun rise and the Jordan river flow-- until his work is complete and it might be tonight but if not it will rise because He promised to do other things in the mean time.

Enoch2021, If I toss out all reasonable extrapolations which means the weather yesterday couldnt possibly be the same today I might agree with you. Summer might not be hot and winter might not be cold. That Assumptions and theories are required by all disciplines or 'sciences' of established and doctor recommended assumptions and form the basis with which to test hypotheses is agreed. If certain physical laws were not in place and our trust in them not misplaced these assumptions would be entirely invalid. I don't live in a lawless universe I live in Creation. Science is and always will be a derivative. If you want to take a ..your own.. derivative of words and compare it to another derivative then they are on equal footing of being manmade.

Bible2, slow down please...you have a lot of good ideas about things in your post, but I cant process all that at once! But..please don't call it the God particle..what if we observe it, manipulate it, is that respectful? And that is not what the Higgs boson is, why think it is different than the up quark or give it some undeserved halo? They are all God's particles, please. Since you are very able to see these things coming ahead of time you will be well prepared to figure out what's wrong with the situation when it does! My own pet notions and furious extrapolations lead me to the same kinds of theories at times, but What I have come into, passing by the same types of creative thinking, is that simplicity is the most effective and powerful tool. Being open minded is a wonderful gift to have and I understand prying at the lid of these issues with all of your creativity. Take a step back and then a deep breath and look at what you are trying to accomplish. And the reason I say is because my answer is just simple, and very humble. Pick one of those things and follow it , because they all lead to the same thing, but take a large sack of humility to it with you if an answer is what you seek. Most likely you are sensing too far ahead what your inclinations and perhaps The Spirit are trying to tell you, give them space to separate and become distinct.

So the pen made the sword mightier! Good one Shiloh

I have a class action suit for skin cancer patients waiting for her claim to be validated.

I cannot agree with one single incident- geology can be very complex and Ive heard of this before and it was debunked as redeposition.. Sometimes its best to wait and see what develops with this kind of thing..Both the fossilized bones have to match composition and match in age to be apparent -it is not enough to be buried together. I know good scientists don't make up whatever suits their fancy and the latest fashion. They are tough as iron about being fooled by their own paradigms and potentially foolish paradigms that don't fit the facts or logic. Everyone around them will have a field day if they publish nonsense. How well do you hide your mistakes and are you willing to put them out there for your enemies to have at you? That's what scientist do when they publish- print their ideas for everyone to tear asunder and sometimes it takes years to change a paradigm to fit all the facts. But they are very guilty of speaking to each other in contracted, conservative form and then very expansively, hopefully,endearingly to the public to generate interest. Creation reports, measurements, etc aren't exact clear relative to the Word in my opinion but it's all Ive got and I received answers relative to me that resolves it. If you personally suspect a conflict between the two, or something bothers you, I suggest YOU take it up with the big guy. The answers you receive MAY be helpful to others but it may just be for you. Because we know there is no HONOR in having all the answers.

udx, ok I understand your view of models, really. Dollar bet- One day scientists find the model and run thru the streets saying "It's not even wrong!" (because it's perfect) I have to accept that Scripture no matter what is said or any apparent conflict with Creation is also perfect. If I don't have an answer it is in God to reveal. Human ingenuity has answered many questions and resolved many apparent inconsistencies with models. But bound geometric shapes are perfect models, because they are bound. You cannot d/dx their border. It's In or out. So what is the extent of their usage in more complex modeling?

I totally agree with the basis of your thinking and find time to be the critical element to reconciling many things. Keep looking at what is being said about time as you read Scripture using everything we know to frame the issue--relativity, world lines, geological time, the state of certain things and places thru time, quantum states, viewing time as separate slices or pages, the function of d/dx. In principle everything stated in the Word is accountable and nonmagical or physics defying to the degree suggested elsewhere. After that we can work on the word random.....but only if you keep God and yourself in the proper relation. Some reconciliations are in Him and it is up to Him to reveal them, but if my memory of verse serves All will be revealed.

I seem to be missing the Scriptural segway. And even if I triangulate all possible human interpretations I cant. abuse of Creation and yes sometimes you have to make it a punishable offense to save both. Doesn't pass the Steve Irwin test of a healthy respect.

I know that what was done to me is the past and it cannot be erased. I wish I had handled it a hundred different ways but I didn't at the time. I can see the effects of it in my life and have struggled to correct myself and get back to the life I wanted. Is the past so powerful? Luke1:37 Do I deny God this awesome power to actually change the past? What will happen if I allow myself to believe that He can and not control it's content?

Like wise wingnut, on witnessing the path my father took, but I like The Spirit to have the real credit....

I have to take path of saying that since Genesis does not literally contain the same correlation 1:1000 as Peter ,or vice versa, I cannot rightfully connect anything. Prophecies, the main corollaries between books, are (usually?) distinctly crossreferenced by the author and to my knowledge this does not occur. Six days for creation ok! -but to an eternal being time is literally meaningless. We know precisely that time can tick slower without argument and having God around and the energy expenditure of Creation= I don't need any more ingredients to create a discontinuity, BUT a fixed rational has eluded intelligent minds for centuries. I get the distinct impression that 'reading between the lines' is taken as adding something which is not there and we are forewarned. But I also take issue in that something such as this disagreement is literally blocking Christians from applying the same thing in a 'moving forward' type attitude towards other passages and other SIMILAR implications. So if two Christians don't agree where does that put Jesus? I didn't read between the lines, I simply looked at it's reflection and am asking if there is something else I should be knowing-Am I wiser yet in the fullness of The Word? It is built to last is all I have to say... PS you cant make that up.