post

you're kinda way off topic there Joe. & you still haven't told me what you think it means that Paul has to talk to born-again believers in an "human way" 'because of the weakness of their flesh' . . . ? i love how often you post scripture, but sometimes i think it can act as a bit of a smokescreen; we all love scripture - but there's a certain effect your manner has - sometimes i come away from reading your posts with the distinct impression that you haven't said anything at all, but because you've simply put scripture from all kinds of context up, without any explanation of them, in my head i'm free to think i agree with you because i'm making my own associations -- which may be completely contrary to your own, not having shared them. for example the couple of posts you replied to my question above. they seem like nice replies -- because there is a lot of scripture. they seem agreeable -- because they are a lot of scripture, and the Word is acceptable and perfect. but as a reply, it's all contextless scripture, and ultimately you haven't answered coherently at all. if you remove the contextless scriptural quotes from the second reply, it came across to me as actually a bit belligerent: you kinda just say "i didn't stutter" in reply to my pressing you for an actual explanation that addresses the question instead of contextless, non-topical quotes. i think you've missed the point -- my question is not about the analogy that Paul was using or what he was meaning to convey by it, but about why he had to use an analogy in the first place and why he explained it as "human" + the fact that he is not talking to the unregenerate. i *think* you have because it's hard to get a straight answer from you. in a manner of speaking. i'm sorry, but if you care to actually reply, you may have to use your actual words. if that cramps your style, that's cool too. w/e. but don't stop with the scripture. we love that. just that sometimes i feel like it can be a bit of slight-of-hand or like a politician smoothly tossing out buzzwords without actually saying anything of substance. the audience hears what they want to hear and if they aren't paying close attention, they think you're the one who said it. in particular here, you still ain't given me a satisfactory reply. or maybe i'm just so far gone, mentally, that i ain't comprehending what you're telling me hahaha

a 2015 single release from Papa San -- "God Love" ♪♪ i don't have to fight my battle 'cuz God fight it for me ♫

the Biblical use of the word "heart" is never referring to the cardiovasular system. it is always figurative, referring to what in modern terms we would call variously the 'psyche' or 'id' or 'subconscious' . . the center of a person's being. it's spoken of as the thing from which thoughts arise, the thing which has emotions, which comprehends and understands, which believes. Bible concordances even give "mind" as an alternate definition for both the Hebrew and Greek words: "heart issues" are "mental issues." they are certainly not "musculo-skeletal." i feel that some people also like to shift the verbage around and call these shortcomings in ourselves by other words, but forget that it is in our weakness that His strength is revealed: because He is our Saviour. for some reason ((my guess is vanity?)) it's a lot more discomfiting to admit that your own thinking may not been flawless than it is to admit that you make mistakes with your actions. yet all this is to praise God - and i do pray it's convicting - because the One who took Nebudchanezzar's mind from him, so that he would be humbled, is the same One who gave it back, renewed: with knowledge of who the One True and Living God is. likewise we have a Saviour who is renewing our minds & we are being built up in the knowledge of Him, casting down imaginations, even our own, and regenerating those things which were corrupted through the flesh. so while we sojourn in the flesh, and it is weak, and that influence pervades our experiential existence on this earth - we wait for the flesh to be finally redeemed -- this isn't something to be offended by; it's a thing to thank Him joyfully for, knowing He will complete what He began, and a thing to teach us to be as He is, meek & lowly of heart, even while we are being conformed into that very image.

i think this is interesting too -- what the law says to do with your tithe if you were not able to bring it to the temple: If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. (Deuteronomy 14:24-26) it doesn't seem to me to lend itself towards asceticism at all . . though it does have several other implications for this discussion, IMHO, one important one being that we should not by any means neglect His presence! ((while i'm using big words, doesn't this conversation seem like it could slip into Manichaeism? and that's a heresy, right?))

does this mean that since we received the gospel, we don't have human limitations anymore, and that our minds are all fully transformed? that we are mentally capable of comprehending all the mysteries of God? that we have no more natural, human limitations? i.e. there are no 'issues' with our minds? does anyone think that is what the fact that this is written here means? need a closer look? ((the NIV here strays pretty far from the actual text)) Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology 442 [e] anthrōpinon ἀνθρώπινον Humanly Adj-ANS 3004 [e] legō λέγω I speak, V-PIA-1S 1223 [e] dia διὰ on account of Prep 3588 [e] tēn τὴν the Art-AFS 769 [e] astheneian ἀσθένειαν weakness N-AFS 3588 [e] tēs τῆς of the Art-GFS 4561 [e] sarkos σαρκὸς flesh N-GFS 4771 [e] hymōn ὑμῶν. of you. PPro-G2P Paul is literally saying that he has to talk to them as a human because their flesh is weak. does that maybe mean that a "flesh issue" translates to a "mental issue" -- since that "flesh issue" results in a "comprehension issue" whereby the apostle must speak "humanly" to them, in order for them to understand? and these are people who are included in Christ. he is not writing to non-believers. anyone find that strange? or are we all comfortable with this describing our natural state, having been called to His purpose, sealed with the Spirit, and waiting for Him to return, still living within this tent? or maybe someone might find that strange because they have themselves progressed so far beyond such a 'childlike' state of 'mental limitation' that such limitations no longer apply to them? *shrug* y'all tell me. what do i know? i have mental issues and unhealthy obsessions, lol

not an explanation, nor an answer, Joe. what, do you think he's implying that it would be better to use ESP to explain what he is telling them, instead of a merely human thing like "words" ?

delicious food, by definition, caters to the flesh. but Paul in another place says eat whatever is sold in the market without raising questions of conscience, and also says that all things are lawful for him ((though not all expedient)), and in another letter warns of people abandoning the faith, with a false air of godliness forbidding eating certain foods and the pleasure of marriage. these, he says are following the teachings of demons, and are enemies of the cross. in another place he says of the enemies of the cross, their god is their stomach -- perhaps an odd thing to say about people who forbid eating certain foods? is he only speaking of gluttony there? are these 'different' enemies? or do some people prostrate themselves before a harsh master, unlike the one who created all things to be received with thanksgiving? "entertainment" is a broad, generic category. are you wearing an hairshirt btw? ((just curious))

Paul is speaking by the Holy Spirit to believers, people fully saved and declared holy, found in Christ, when he says this: I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. (Romans 6:19) what does that mean?

yes, righteousness and purity and holiness are imputed to us - Christ's own. we are declared to have these things, because we have Christ who stands on our place and acts as our 'advocate' and 'champion.' that's often called 'positional sanctification' and with regard to what we experience, we are being conformed to the image of Him. this is also the work of God, who transforms and renews us - we do not have ourselves to thank for any of this, but Him alone - and this is ongoing until that day when He returns and reconciles all things, making us complete, and fully transforming us into something we cannot yet perceive, but 'we know we will be like Him' this 'progressive sanctification' encompasses every part of us -- our bodies, our thoughts, our hearts/minds/subconscious being, our actions, and our emotions - everything. and inherent in the truth that we are yet being perfected is the truth that we are not yet perfected - so that in all of us, while we yet live in these tents, there remain physical issues, nature issues, mental issues, sin issues -- things that the Refiner, the Author and Finisher of our faith is still perfecting and renewing and transforming. things for which we still have need of Him ((as though we did not 'need' Him even for what He has already given! remember the conversion of Nebudchanezzar? He took his very mind away, to teach him his place!)). so the positional aspect should give us joy, and the progressive aspect should teach us meekness and humility, and from both we ought to have gratitude and thankfulness towards God - who alone is working these things in us! from all of this, God is praised -- and no one can boast & all glory ought to be given to God, because it is His work, not ours. this is sort of all wrapped up in a single line of scripture: For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14)

the Lord is 'high above' -- figuratively, high enough that when He looks down, the circle that His view encompasses includes the entire earth.

the direct context is that, yes -- specifically, instructing Titus on how to deal with the Cretans, who are by nature argumentative and liars, so probably quick to adopt just about any contrary stance to whatever it is they are being taught or advised, one major source of which would be the Judaizing influences that assailed the gospel almost everywhere it went. but i get the sense that with the statement i quoted, Paul is giving a 'proverb' -- a statement that is true in many more senses and applications than the particular one that he is referring to in this letter . . ?

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. (Titus 1:15) what do you think this means? is it relevant, do you think?

i think this translation lends itself to the understanding that it is describing God seeing the 'perimeter' of the earth -- what you would draw with a compass, i.e. that which 'encompasses' the earth. everything we see, though it has visual depth, is planar, 2-d. so the 2-d word circle ((or compass or horizon)) is not talking about geometrical form of the planet, but about what is seen. the verse after all says "He looks down" upon it - so we're describing as it were His vision, which in the figurative sense of vision like ours, would be planar projections, not 3-d forms. as discussed, the sphere of the earth has a circular outline, from every direction - and yes, i agree that the word 'compass' gives the sense of design, as that other use of the word in the proverb, when He set a compass to the face of the deep ((or 'set an edge on the face' of it)) -- some translations also render this as that He 'marked the horizon,' these are all the language of draftsmanship; of careful and purposeful design.

it's OK to 'make light' of this, isn't it? ((more word associations))

even a 4-dimensional or higher than that, sphere . . ? ((be assured, mathematically, the n-sphere exists, no problem)) the Greeks considered the sphere to be the geometrically 'perfect' form, and worked out their science on the basis of it, that the God who created the cosmos was perfect, so fundamentally this form was all over it, as though His fingerprint.

He called the light, "day" -- in Hebrew, "yom" boy, that word can have many meanings, can't it?

but He created light first - and separated it from darkness, and called it "day" - before He created the stars. stars are not the only source of light .. ?

pretty sure i've heard the same analogy on the radio -- iirc Vernon McGee used that. yes, i agree -- this is how & why the renewal of our minds and our sanctification is an ongoing process; none of us are perfected yet, but He that began the work will finish it also. how, while we yet live in these tents, can we ever say "i'm fine right here - no nearer, no more improvement is necessary; i have no more outstanding issues" ?? He gives even more grace! press onward

that's not entirely clear to me whether they did or not. but it wouldn't matter -- it is clear that the ancient Jews believed in Ba'al and Ashoreh and Molek, and the Lord gave them over to worshiping the starry host, because of their spiritual adulteries. But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. (Acts 7:42) so of course they believed all kinds of lies from the pit of hell about the universe writ large. they were a deceived people, blinded and made deaf by Him, in judgement. they believed these things with their whole heart and would not be swayed, not even by prophets, and not by what they could plainly see with their own eyes: that things they believed were false. this argument carries no weight with me at all.

you're welcome. over more than 20 years i've had long, extended and involved conversations with dozens of people who are 100% bought into ((or sold into?)) this idea. i've given it lots of thought and careful inquiry. years of it. and every one of the serious adherents of it seem to me to have the same spirit; not the one in you - which seems to be genuine interest and curiosity. i've concluded through all of this that every single 'proof' they give is 100% bogus, given with deceitfully chosen narrow scopes of information, and every 'anomaly' they present is readily and fully explained by known atmospheric physics, optics, and other natural laws of God's universe, while there are a great multitude of physical impossibilities that the zetetic model cannot reconcile at all. further, my conclusion is that the scripture they sometimes cite is not in any way describing the geometry of the planet - in some cases it's a total misuse of vocabulary, as here in Isaiah, or obviously figurative language such as the 'pillars of the earth' or the 'four corners' - the scriptures simply aren't saying what zetetic adherents are trying to tell us they are saying. they are speaking with poetic language about the majesty of God, and are written for the perspective of a man standing on the face of the planet: they are not a cosmological textbook or handbook of physics, though they are entirely consistent with the truth of the natural world when understood for what they are, and the purpose of the writing -- and that purpose is not to teach physics, astronomy, math, biology or geology. and thanks for sticking to the scripture instead of jumping down the rabbit hole. the 'flat people' wouldn't want to dwell on this point for too long, i think -- but i think we are all better served to stick with the scripture, and from there move towards the things above, instead of focusing all our energies on the things below.

if the earth were a flat disc, then it would only have a circular profile when looking directly down from the exact center of it. the general zetetic view ((an idea that has its modern origins in freemasonry)) is that the north pole is the center. from every vantage point other than directly above the north pole, the profile of the disc earth would be an ellipse, not a circle. since the earth is instead spherical, it has a circular profile ((projection)) from every vantage point. in this sense, a spherical earth is more 'circular' than a disc earth. _________________________________________ the word "circle" is a strictly two-dimensional term. "sphere" and "disc" are three-dimensional terms. 'flat-earthers' aren't describing a 'flat' earth -- and they are not describing a 'circle' earth -- they are describing a disc. a 3-d form, not a 2-d shape. there is a perfectly good Hebrew word that would be used for a 'disc' -- the word you would use to describe a solid wheel, for example, or a circular stool ((technically a cylinder whose diameter is very large relative to its height)) - a three dimensional object, not a 2-d shape. this doesn't happen to be the word Isaiah used, though i have no doubt that he knew this word ((oben, Strong's # 70)). he has a rich vocabulary -- a learned man. the word actually used instead in the Hebrew is related to a 'vault' or 'compass' -- inherent is the idea of 'circumscribing' an area. it is the understanding given to me that this passage is not describing the geometrical form of the earth. it is saying that God sees all of it - from horizon to horizon in every direction. wherever you stand, look around you, and as the area 'encompassed' by your view in every direction is 'circumscribed' by a circle, in the plane, or by a closed 'vault' or more properly an 'hemisphere' if including the sky above you. that is what this verse is saying: the Lord looks down ((for He is, figuratively, 'above' all things)) and sees everything from horizon to horizon. all things in every direction. all this is saying is that nothing escapes the Lord's view. it is not saying the earth is a disc. that the earth has the "form" of a 'circle' is nonsense, geometrically -- a "form" is three dimensional. "circle" is a two-dimensional word. the outline of the earth is indeed circular. the projection of the earth into 2-dimensions, from any angle is circular, within some limits, as it is slightly oblate at the equator from rotation. this is true because the earth is a spheroid. if the earth was a discoid, then it would only have a circular projection/outline when viewed from the center. from any other angle -- including over Jerusalem -- it would be elliptical, and from edge-on it would be rectangular. __________________________________________ so from the scripture itself and from knowledge of simple geometry, understanding the vocabulary being used, we can escape deceit and what we see with all of our senses and what knowledge the Lord has seen fit to allow mankind to take hold of, upholds the scripture, and destroys the masonic 'flat-earth' conspiracy. and this aside from the 10,000 observational science proofs that it is "flat wrong." __________________________________________

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:29-30) someone was explaining to me last week about something they learned from the Amish about how a young ox is trained. it is yoked to a mature ox while that ox plows. this older, stronger ox is doing all the work -- the young ox is simply 'along for the ride' and is being pulled along by the strength of the other. this is how for centuries - probably millennia - a beast of burden has been taught its 'trade.' it is not there to actually do the hard labor, but to become accustomed to the yoke, and to the path that it should trod when it is ready to work on its own. it learns that struggling against the other is futile, and learns to follow it and do as it does. this is how Christ's yoke is, my friend explained: we do not do the labor. we walk alongside the Lord, as He shoulders the load. so the yoke is easy and the burden, light -- He is the One that worketh and willeth in you; and you submit to His righteousness, not establish your own. so then although a yoke is placed on you, it is not by works. although we are prepared for every good work He predestined for us, it is not ourselves, but Christ that lives in us, that is worthy of all glory and honor - and we are made His yokefellow, and i tell you, not one of us has strength of his own to keep up with this One! i liked this explanation i was given very much. i found it profound and enlightening! i hope you do also . . it is of course an analogy, and at some point every analogy breaks down - because every analogy is a way to communicate a truth of God's perfect understanding to our simplistic, human way of thinking. ♥

yes. bring it. let there be rain with these clouds and this wind. one at a time, so we all know what we're focusing on and we can't skip over things. pick your 'best one' first, and let's see what the Spirit reveals. let's do this.

try reconciling the fact that it is the will of the Father that the Son lose not one of His sheep with the idea that He will lose any of them.