seeking the lost

You are working way too hard. It is better to just stick with the simplicity of the revelation of Jesus given to John. The message was to prepare for this which is coming. The message is not that this is what you will miss if you are good enough.

At the time when the day of the Lord begins, there will not be the opportunity to change or become better. Consider the parable of the virgins. The cry rang out, "the bridegroom is coming", The foolish virgins could not be included because they were not ready. They, the foolish virgins, knock on the door but it is not opened to them. Whatever they do at this time will make no difference. I never knew you are words that no one will want to hear. That day is delayed because the Father is not willing that any should perish.

There is a rapture and it is dynamically connected to the resurrection. Thes two events cannot be unlinked. Our theology, or what we think of scripture cannot alter that fact. It is imperative that the dead in Christ rise first, that is the last day resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 6. Those who are alive and remain are the ones that are caught up and changed. This is at the end of the thousand years during the time that satan is loosed. Many will be deceived and will not be caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye. This is the last day. This is the time of Judgement when all will stand before Him and sheep and goats are separated.

You have a way of complicating things that are straightforward and simple. I am focused on the words these are they that have come out of great tribulation Rev. 7:14. That is contrary to your position but it is what the text does say. Psalms 116:15, Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

The power of God and His ability are limitless. He is able to send wrath on the whole earth whit it landing on those that it is intended for. Consider Ezekiel 9:1He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4and the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. In the last days, there will be a seal as there was a mark. Those who have the seal will not be harmed by the wrath. Consider Revelations 7: 3. 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Would you agree or disagree that this is possible and that rapture is not the only presupposition? The command of God is not to hurt those who are sealed.

The parameters of the rapture are very concise. Paul writes about correcting ignorance in this way,"13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. We know the time of the resurrection and should assume that there is not a rapture before that time. If we begin to add resurrections and raptures where there can not be resurrections and raptures, are we not adding to the scriptures? Once the door is opened to speculation there is no end to the additions.

Tell me more about your understanding of first fruits.

Who do you believe the two witnesses were and what was their message?

Do you think Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus might have a similar problem?

There are many promises throughout the bible with the promise of deliverance. Not one of them is a promise of being raptured. You do remember that the tares are taken out first. The wheat is not taken away from the tares like in a rapture. The rapture is not to remove Christians from trouble but to take them to the new along with the dead in Christ. The foolish virgins were left outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The first resurrection is a closed set, only those specified are raised. That means there are many that are classified as the dead in Christ that are not included. They are raised at the end of the thousand years. This is the time when the books are opened and every man and every woman will be judged by the things they have done. 2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. Those who fear God and tremble at His word should tremble at the warning not to add or take away from the writing of this book. It is my opinion that many pay no attention to this warning. I do not mean to be harsh but the warning is clear and yet there are those who teach 14 raptures. That is clearly adding.

This is the warning: Revelation 22:18, 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I am not suggesting that verses are being added but the interpretation of many twists, changes, and perverts the text. This activity in my opinion is violating the warning. The primary texts that teach about the rapture set the parameters of interpretation. The first is 1 cor. 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The second is like unto it, Thess. 4: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. These texts teach specifically there must be a resurrection of the dead in Christ prior to the rapture. The book of Revelation clearly identifies two resurrections, the first at the end of the tribulation and the second at the end of the thousand years. Does John make a mistake in recording the first resurrection? Does anyone have the freedom to add a resurrection or resurrections to support their views? The number of people who believe any particular doctrine or the degrees that they may have does not determine the truth.

I would worry about adding to the scripture. We are warned that those who add to the scriptures will be in a lot of trouble. The rapture follows the resurrection, there is only one time that will happen.

I agree that there is a difference. I also agree that many people ignore this present wrath. What I thought you wrote was that there was not any wrath during the tribulation. The fate of many will be sealed by that wrath during all ages.

Chapter 6 is a picture of those already slain for their testimony. They ask the question how long? The answer is that many more have to be killed. The many more are the multitude of chapter 7. This multitude came out of the great tribulation by way of death.

Malichi indicates treading on the ashes of the wicked. Malichi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. There is not a resurrection at that time and without adding to the scriptures there can be no rapture. The crowd is made up of those who have been killed coming out of the great tribulation.

The first to be taken out are the tares. The tares are gathered and burned. Malichi 4 describes the coming of the Lord. 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. There is a picture of this judgment in Ezekiel 9. 1He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4and the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? In the same way, the people of God will receive a mark and they will not be touched as the wrath of the LORD unfolds. Revelation 7 Sealing the Servants of God 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. The earth is purged of tares, the wheat remaining unharmed.

You have done a lot of work on the subject but there must be a distinction between tribulation, which Jesus said we would have in this world, and the great tribulation. Looking at the context in chapter 6 there is a conversation with those who have been slain. Consider Revelation 6: 9-11; 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. I believe that these in chapter 7 are those spoken of in chapter 6, their fellow servants that should be killed. These are those killed in the great tribulation.

The text does say that these have come out of the great tribulation. Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Do you acknowledge that the wrath of God is already active in the earth. Consider Romans 1. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Notice the wrath is being revealed in the present tense. This wrath is active and present today and will be there in that day. 2 Thessalonians 2: 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. This is the wrath of God.

The Tribulation will be marked not only by the wrath of God but also satans rage. In Chapter 7 there is a conversation about who these people are. They are identified as those who have come out of the great tribulation. Notice the time of their coming out. Their coming out was during the great tribulation and not before the great tribulation. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Actully we must never take the armor off. It is the way. Night time is a time many are vurnable.

This assumes that the righteous will be taken first. The teaching of Jesus in Matthew indicates that the tares are taken out first. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The changed in the twinkling of an eye has nothing to do with works being tested by fire.

Yes, that is correct and the word is true. There is a difference between the dead in Christ rising and those who have never seen death being caught up. These are connected and sequenced. The rapture is the catching up of those who have never and will never see death.