Mike 2

You may be right but there is an obvious conflict in the different passages and I was just trying to stimulate a conversation that may enlighten us all as to why we see that conflict.

I dont see how that question has anything to do with the discusion

The bible, look at the posts referring to Hebrews to start

It plays into the decision making. If we really think about it it plays into forgiveness for all of us, even if it is only at the beginning stage of forgiveness. At first, we forgive out of obedience, then we forgive because we come to some sort of understanding, then we forgive because we know it releases us, ultimately we forgive out of love and a desire to do what Jesus did and lead someone to a relationship with God. So I think it does matter if we can come to some understanding, good or bad, that helps us to start the process of forgiveness. I think we may be losing focus on the OP

I beg to differ ... We are constantly telling people that we are to ask God for forgiveness when we know that it has already been given. We should not be telling people that they need to ask God for forgiveness so they can be in a good relationship with Him. We should be telling them ...You know how much God loves you, Ill tell you, He has already forgiven you, even the worst you have done, He didnt put any , any stipulation on it, you just gotta accept it. I think there is more to understand about the questions brought up around the verses in the OP and the GOOD SHEPHERD JESUS has not left a lofty mystery but has actually given us the understanding, we just need to talk it out and learn.

I would have to realize that I cannot pay them back. Go to them and apologize for putting them in the position I have and then ask them if there is anyway that they can work something out. It will only work if 1) they understand that I believe I have truly done something wrong. 2) I know that their forgiveness will be based on knowing I truly believe I will do what it takes to not to let it happen again

We hear over and over again that IF we ask God for forgiveness we will receive it but where does it say in the bible that we must ask for forgiveness of sins. I don't believe it does because forgiveness is something that is given, not asked for. An apology is the approach to receiving forgiveness and that apology is only valid if it is done with the intent of not letting the transgression happen again. (repentance). If we are not willing to forgive a certain thing, that then indicates that we feel there is no repentance possible, if we in turn commit the same transgression we then put ourselves in the position of doing something that we feel is unredeemable and God cannot possibly forgive me for. Although the forgiveness is freely offered from God we think it is impossible and in so doing, God "can not" forgive us.

We hear over and over again that IF we ask God for forgiveness we will receive it but where does it say in the bible that we must ask for forgiveness of sins.

Mat 6:12 and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us. What bearing does this verse from the "Our Father" have on the Matthew verse in question? They're both in the same passage Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive people their offenses, your Father will not forgive your offenses." Can it be similar to Mat 7:2 because the way that you judge others will be the way that you will be judged, and you will be evaluated by the standard with which you evaluate others. By setting a standard for which we are willing to judge someone we then set the same standard to which we say "If I were to go beyond that I would be judged this way" Could it be that in light of Mat 6:12 that if we set the standard that " I am only willing to forgive this much sin", we also say to ourselves, "God would never forgive me if I did the same thing" You see forgiveness is freely handed to us, but if we don't accept it.....it hasn't been received and it's fullness is not realized. If we don't receive the Fathers forgiveness the forgiveness is not complete and although the Father wants to give it it cannot be fulfilled.

by the way.....this just came to mind.... I just did a quick bible search on the 2 words "ask forgiveness" Can't seem to find anything in the bible where it says "ask forgiveness" Anyone able to come up with something...ask, seek, pursue I can find lots for offer and for. I believe there is a significant reason for that

I think you are on to something Gary

I would not say that God is lying. What I am doing is posing the question... based on what we read in Hebrews there appears to be a conflict so....are we misunderstanding the verses in Matthew, or Hebrews for that matter? It's got nothing to do with if God is lying but working out together the question posed in the OP. When it comes to the bible sometimes things aren't always as clear as we would like to believe. What are your thoughts on the verses from Hebrews and how they relate to the ones from Matthew? (anyone...not just simplejeff)

In regards to Matthew 6 I can't help but think about Adam and Eve in the garden after they had sinned. God knew they had sinned yet there He was walking in the garden looking for them to commune with them. It was Adam and Eve that were embarrassed by their sin ( we see the physical example of the spiritual reality in their covering up with leaves) and it was they that separated from God. I'm going to step out on a limb here and ask the question...In regards to vs 15, is it possible that we think and feel that God has not forgiven us because we are feeling the anger and enslavement of unforgiveness towards another. I say this in light of Heb 7:27 He has no need to offer sacrifices every day like high priests do, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he sacrificed himself. and Heb_9:26 Then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the creation of the world. But now, at the end of the ages, he has appeared once for all to remove sin by his sacrifice. If Christ died once for all men, for all sin how is it then that God would not forgive our trespasses if we don't forgive others? I believe the answer is there, we just have to work it out.

Rev 13:16 The second beast forces all people—important and unimportant, rich and poor, free and slaves—to be marked on their right hands or on their foreheads, Rev 13:17 so that no one may buy or sell unless he has the mark, which is the beast's name or the number of its name. I don't think the world is to this point yet but the OP is talking about something that could bring us to that. Particularly when we consider how much technology is influencing our decision making. I had to pay the bank extra to walk up to a teller rather than use a bank machine the other day. The big talk today is putting smart watches on children so parents can track them. Once anything goes on the internet anyone can grab the info and you can bet your bottom dollar the people that are inventing those watches are doing just that. How do we define what is our god? Mat 6:19 "Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. Mat 6:20 But keep on storing up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where moths and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal, Mat 6:21 because where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." If our treasure is being in good status with this AI creation, where will our hearts be. What will we do to be in good standing. How do we define worship??? I have been in church a long time and I haven't seen very many people prostrate on the floor worshiping God, we worship in many ways.

The population is going to be controlled and deceived somehow. The way we are consumed with technology, becoming more dependent on it, the information gathering that is going on...... Who or what ever controls the info will control the masses and will be looked to. Hearing of this doesn't surprise me. The exact opposite of a warm loving God is a cold heartless god

Time is a physical thing, God is not. Physical things begin and end. God has taught us all through the bible to relate the spiritual to physical examples. Ask them where space begins and ends.

To me, the question asks about what I consider is the great mystery....how does something spiritual (unseen) become physical , I know that I can, from my thoughts create, through my body into the physical but how does God create something from nothing?

The good news (gospel) God comes to us. In history and personally

Happens to me. Years ago I can remember getting up and going into the living room and marveling at how I was able to connect scripture together. Thought I was pretty good and wondered why I could not do it when I was around people. Then one night around 2 AM when it was happening again, I suddenly got this sense....Mike, it's not you....it's Me.... That's when I realized that it was Gods Holy Spirit working in me at a time when I didn't have life's distractions getting in the way. I embrace those times now and I have found, no matter how long that happens for, sometimes 2 or 3 hours, I'm never tired in the morning.

The thread is here. I share a good part of brakelites point of view

Awww sorry Shiloh what I thought was posted never went up. All that writing and nothing but memories

I found an older one already going and posted some thoughts there The Substance of Man: Body, Spirit, Soul trinity explained

Here's how I see it: Paul is struggling with sin in his life and describing where in his spiritual walk it is at work. He knows in his soul what is the right thing to do ..... For I have the desire to do what is right....., but between knowing that and actually working that outwards and into the world his spirit gives into the physical (carnal) influence around him .For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. but I cannot carry it out. Paul is making a distinction As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me. Rom 7:17,18 Paul is splitting between our spirit and our soul and that deep inside he knows what is right but because his spirit is corrupted by worldly (carnal) influences, he gives in to that and....sins. I might add that 1Cor. 2:10-12 helps me to understand there is a difference between our soul and spirit as well as the difference between the Father and the Holy Spirit. In this we see there is a difference between our thoughts and our spirit. Gods thoughts and his Spirit. When we receive Gods Spirit, we are then able to have new understanding, not just the worldly influence that unsaved people have but the additional Spirit of God partnering with us, in our spirit to help us make heavenly choices rather than worldly choices. But alas, even this great preacher still struggled with sin. Fortunately, he gives us a clue as to where in our spiritual side the struggle is and what the answer to dealing with it is....Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is infected by death? Rom 7:25 Thank God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, because with my mind I myself can serve the Law of God, even while with my human nature I serve the law of sin. Coupled with the verses from 1Cor. I can see how Paul can keep going despite his sinning from time to time....he understands the weakness of the flesh and its influence on his spirit but, more importantly, he understands the transforming power of the Messiah. Now some may disagree with me as to whether Paul is referring to his spirit or soul when he says 'As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it," but he is making a distinction between the 2 and that there is a decision making process at work.

saved

But they are not one and the same. That's the point. Jesus came up out of the water, the Father spoke from Heaven and the Spirit descended in the form of a dove. So yes they were separate. No, because all three Persons are the one God, one being, one essence. I'd be happy to discuss this in another thread or emails