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Fidei Defensor

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  1. Hey Judas, can you share some of Bible verses about those in heaven praying for us? I am curious. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My major concern about being concerned about if the dead pray for us or vice versa is that it takes our eyes of Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) and antichrist actually doesn't mean against Christ, it means to replace Christ (Matthew 24:24) in our hearts, worship, and focus. Then there are verses in the Pentateuch or Torah which describe contacting the dead as a sin (Deuteronomy 8:10-11, Leviticus 19:11, 1 Chronicles 10:13-14), and while this does not fall into direct contact, it is awfully close in same vein of thinking, and I stick to "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:22). The counter argument is there is no more death (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), that Jesus is Resurrection and Life and all who abide in Him aren't dead (John 11:25-26, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:14), and even Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus in Transfiguration (Matthew 17) but neither Elijah or Moses talked to the Apostles, only to Jesus who is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13). However, this is not totally an accurate counter argument, because death is not completely eradicated until Jesus throws it in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Besides that the point of there being no more death, is to say there is no more separation between us and God, and death does not hold us anymore just as it didn't hold Jesus, it isn't a free license to talk to dead, pray to them, or receive their prayers. And why would we want prayers of saints, when we can have prayers of Jesus, "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us," (Romans 8:34), "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them," (Hebrews 7:25), "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted," (Hebrews 2:18), and "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin," (Hebrews 4:15), Why would we want those who were weak, former sinners now in heaven pray for us? when we can have Jesus who is God and Man (Colossians 2:9, 1 John 4:1-3), who knows our afflictions and struggles, but has the power of God pray for us. It would be like if someone is given a choice, talk with God directly or go through a third party? I just think we should stay away from something not communicated to us by Christ or Apostles as an essential, a focus, and main part of the Christian walk. We are suppose to be communing with Christ (having relationship with him), preaching the Gospel (Matthew 28:19, Matthew 24:14), and operating in gifts God has given us to serve His Kingdom.
  2. One of my contentions with contemporary worship is that they tend to abridge and leave out important details. There is popular song, "I am going down to river.. to the river." But there is no allusion or explanation that this river is God's River and He will be our fountain. Instead it almost sounds like a Irish mystical song (the ancient pagan Irish and Celts revered water as sacred and supernatural).
  3. From what I see in Scripture, there definitely is angels seeing the prayers and elders: "The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand," (Revelation 8:4) Then there is where elders and Cherubim, "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people." (Revelation 5:8).
  4. I still don't see how me saying God can edit his Law and Covenant is an issue. Is He not God? Can He not change things? I mean we Christians are under a new covenant, not the Law of Death. In fact, if you go back to the Law you become cursed again, "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law," (Galatians 3:10), and if you are going to follow the Law instead of live under Grace of God manifest through Christ, then you must be circumcised, that's part of law, and here is what Paul says, "Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all," (Galatians 5:2), and "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace." (Galatians 5:4).
  5. I think incense in Revelation is more of symbolic metaphor to explain that God sees our prayers, I don't think its actual incense in this case. As for incense used in the liturgy, I have experienced both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox variations. I often find incense is very potent and makes people cough, but it is endearing that the priest (in Orthodoxy at least) when he waves the censur is covering the believers in the incense as sign that our prayers are going to the Lord, and it is symbol of honor towards us, because we are made in His image (Genesis 1:27).
  6. It's fear, and once you let one tiny foot of fear in door, it creeps into your whole life. Hence why "Fear not" is said 366 times in Bible, "that covers a whole year and extra day" (for leap year).
  7. The Bible Answer Man, Hank Hanegraaf became an Eastern Orthodox Christian: http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2017/april/how-should-we-respond-to-hank-hanegraaffs-switch-to-orthodo.html There has been a surge of Evangelicals and Protestants leaving their churches and joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. The reasons vary, but generally it happens when they study Church History and become intrigued by a church they have not heard of. Most of us who aren't Catholic, know of the Roman Church and even know rudimentary details of their doctrines because all Protestant Churches came in one way or another from Catholic Church. The Papacy, St. Peters, The Crucifix, and the various cults are familiar to us, but Eastern Orthodoxy? What is Patriarchate? How have I not heard of this ancient church with its three bar crosses, golden dome churches, and incredible cantoring? Eastern Orthodoxy is in fact older than Catholic Church, and the Church of Rome came out of it with its Filoque reformation (yep, Catholics were reformers, their Doctrine of Trinity which is same as all Protestants is not how Orthodox see it). Eastern Orthodoxy captures the fancy of many wayweary brothers and sisters with its emphasis on the "mysteries" rather than the "answers" approach found in Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. However, upon closer inspection of this very ancient church one discover no answers at all, the most famous Bishop Kallistos Ware from UK when asked about "Are you saved?" and salvation (soteriology) responded in quizzical and labyrinth response that ends with "its a mystery." Actually Jesus Christ and Apostles said salvation is no mystery, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day," (John 6:40), "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life," (John 3:16), "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile," (Romans 1:16), "He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household," (Acts 16:30-31), "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it," (Ephensians 2:8-9), "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved," (Acts 4:12), "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him," (John 3:36), and, "If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved." (Romans 10:9-10). I spent about three years studying Eastern Orthodoxy. I attended a Vigil, read their history and doctrines, talked with a priest Father P, and even had Orthodox Chant. I can with impunity and unequivocally say it is not the Church of the Apostles, it the Church of Constantine the Great created in 323 A.D. The oldest Orthodoxy is the Byzantine Rite, the Byzantine Empire was a Christian Empire founded by Constantine after his vision of the cross (in hoc sig natius: in this sign you shall conquer). Constantine merged Sol Invictus and the Son of God into one for his pagan people, and only after Council of Nicea did he have better grasp of Christian theology and doxology. The oldest Patriarchate, one of seats of Patriarchs of Orthodox Church is Constantinople, Constantine's City, and all Orthodox dioses recognize the Bishop of Constantinople (Istanbul). What drew Hank Hanegraaf in was the illusion that this church is the ancient Church of Apostles and Jesus Christ. In point of fact, it is Constantine Church preserved in all its detail, unchanged. Take my word for it, I spent years investigating Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism is reformed compared to it, and I can't imagine why the Bible Answer man didn't see through the serpentine roads Orthodox doctrine has, like "God is beyond us, unknowable, unfathomable.." (Kallistos Ware, Part II of The Orthodox Church), which contradicts Holy Scripture, ""This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent," (John 17:3), "and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God," (Ephensians 3:19), "so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and to know God better and better," (Colossians 1:10), "Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory," (Romans 8:17), "Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ," (1 Peter 1:13), "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me," (John 10:14, Jesus is God Col 2:9, Titus 2:13-17), "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands," (1 John 2:3), "By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit," (1 John 4:13), and "Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us," (1 John 3:24), "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me," (John 10:27), "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing," (John 15:15), "Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need," (Hebrews 4:16), and "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him," (1 Peter 3:18-22). That one doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church, not being able to know God is contested by the Holy Scriptures. How Hank Hanegraaff, having know the Bible so minutely and closely did not take notice of this is quite baffling.
  8. This is called Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia or the fear of Mark of Beast phobia. I understand why brothers and sisters in Christ want to avoid the number of the Beast's name, but the truth is you need only worry is someone is asking you to bow to Beast, to Antichrist, and take His mark. The Scriptures say it in this context, "He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:16-18). Because this employee happened to get that number, doesn't mean he was taking the mark. Everyone on this forum at some point will probably post their six hundred and sixty sixth post, but that doesn't mean anything. The real Mark of Beast is voluntary and people will know when they take it, just as people know when they are Baptized and convert to Christianity. In 2006 and 2016 women were afraid to have babies on June 6th, 2006 or 2016 because lines up lots of sixs. This is superstitious, you are not going to birth the antichrist because of a date and number. By the way the binary code for all computers is triple six, yes no, yes no, yes no. Ironic, because it sounds double minded and Jesus said "Let your yes be your yes and your no be your no, anything else is from evil one." (Matthew 5:37). And yet it is on this computer we are serving Christ and having community here. The point is the Mark is a literal mark, not a number at work or your triple six post, and so forth. I understand not wanting these three numbers, and I too would feel uneasy and would appeal to the boss to be 667 if possible. But the point is the Mark is a real mark. This phobia is like the fear of 13 because its unlucky. Well it was unlucky for Knight Templar who were rounded up by King Phillip IV of France and subjected to torture, being defrauded, and executed on Friday 13th, 1307. If you put the Twelve Disciples with Jesus its a total of 13, and Judas was one who betrayed Jesus, but his position was replaced by Matthias. Phobias can be dangerous, it is fine to dislike something and not want to be number of Beast on employee roster, but we shouldn't fear a number. When the real Mark comes it will be obvious, not "oh you're sitting in stadium seat 666," or "you are the 666 person to become a member or employee." The point, "For God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control." (2 Timothy 1:7). I get not wanting this number, but to avoid it will be difficult, especially is you post a lot.
  9. Did you read my post? It seems you cut and pasted only fragments of it. I said the "Yes the Law and Old Covenant is editable, editable by God Himself."
  10. That is perspective I am very familiar with. I once saw it that way until I learned the perspective I've presented.
  11. Indeed, I have found reading Eastern Orthodox texts like "The Orthodox Church" by Kallistos Ware gave great insight into the other side of coin. Combining Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Reformed studies makes for a great panoramic view of Church History, doxology, and theological studies.
  12. I write lengthy blog posts lol. Yes I wrote that one and 830 other posts from the inspiration and revelations The Trinity bequeaths me. I can send you the link to the blog via PM.
  13. Indeed, my case in that blog post I wrote for my blog is that why would Paul say women can't teach and then applaud women teachers in other epistles and end with "there is no male or female, all are one in Christ." It stands to reason that Paul's rebuke to Corinth was on grounds of pythonesses. That it was for specific church, not all churches.
  14. Here is the big confusion. The Eastern Orthodox/Byzantine Church calls themselves The Catholic Church, because that line is in Nicene Creed. So the Byzantines and Eastern Orthodox to this day think they are Catholic and Roman (not Greek or Slavic). So prior to 1054, the Roman Catholic Church as you know it was called the Catholic Church, because there was no schism yet. The Byzantines didn't start using Orthodox in their title of Church until afterwards, to denote that they are Supreme and Orthodox faith according to the Councils (Nicaea, Chalcedon, and so forth). The Roman Catholic Church today calls itself orthodox, because orthodox means "right belief" according to Council of Nicea and beyond, oppose to heretic in case of Nestorians, Arians, Copts, Gnostics, and so forth who were heretical Christianities, cults. So to make it clear, I know its confusing because of semantics and how words are used. The Roman Catholic Church was called Catholic because Byzantine Church was called Catholic, but the Roman Church as you know it today did not become the distinct church that we know today with papacy and recognized as separate Church from Eastern Orthodox (Catholic) church until 1054 A.D.
  15. Sadly the bad blood between Catholic and Protestant reminds me of "Brother turned against Brother." The bad blood between our churches I think will heal as you have so eloquently said, "with time and future generations." I myself have had so many Catholic friends, and spent so much time in Catholic Church attending masses, reading Catholic literature, and I even have copies of Gregorian Chant, I have never had stigma in my heart of Catholics being an enemy. While I will never be able to agree on Eucharist, Cult of the Saints, Cult of Virgin Mary, Primacy, and etc; I believe a respect can remain between the two parts of the family; for I think all Trinitarian Churches who profess Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and the Only Way of Salvation (Acts 4:10-12, John 14:6) are part of larger Christian family. We don't all see eye to eye, but that's not what matters, sometimes I love the differences, like how we interpret Jesus words in John 6, its fun to compare, critique, and converse about these matters; it would be boring otherwise. I have come to appreciate much in the Catholic Church, I have my own Crucifixes and copy of "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis, and I have a guilty pleasure of being closet historian of the Crusades (I have read many volumes from a diversity of authors). While I will always uphold the Holy Scriptures as my testate for all doctrine, and I hold to Five Solaes (Solus) of By Grace, Through Faith, in Christ Alone, trust Scripture Alone for doctrine, and Glory be to God Alone, I bear not ill will in my heart for my Catholic brothers.
  16. You do me great honor. I learned a respectful tone from being around so many different brothers and sisters in Christ. I had a ecumenical (not ecumenism) or inter-denominational upbringing and so it makes me ready to put on someone's else' shoes and see it from their point of view, while maintaining my convictions. I owe to Christ, he allowed me to be born and live in place where I got to relate in a melting pot of the Messiah's followers.
  17. The Crusaders major contribution was that their descendants who were Milites Christi and Fedi Defensors repelled the Ottoman Turks in Battle of Lepanto, The Battle of Malta, and the Husburg Wars. The Ottomans were preparing to take the whole of Europe, but miraculous defeats happened. For example at Battle of Malta, an estimated 6,100 Maltese Crusaders (including Knights of St. John, formerly The Knights Hospitallers, 200 in strength) defeated an army and armada of 40,000 Ottoman Turks in a miracle. Martin Luther praised the results of the Battle of Lepanto. And while I am Pro-Reformation and Protestant, I better understood the concerns of Catholic Church that splintering Christendom while Ottoman Turks were beginning to invade was risky to say the least. If it weren't for Holy League and Catholic Crusaders, there would have been no more Protestants, no more Christians. The entirety of Europe would have become a Caliphate or Ummah under the Crescent of Islam.
  18. Understood. Well I still hold to my view that since Middle Ages, the Cult of Virgin Mary was an Ashteroth cult revived. In fact, this happened to Israel, they put Ashtoreth poles up and worshipped both Jehovah and Ashtoreth until the Prophet Jeremiah confronted this idolatry (Jeremiah 44) and Nehemiah was told by the LORD to tear down the fertility poles. I do wonder if there has been reform in Catholic Church. Pope Francis I has done some unusual things, one wonders if there will be Vatican III council or sequel to Second Council of Trent. I know many Catholic friends of mine have started reading the Holy Bible, and feel a change in their lives. This being encouraged now that there is a spirit of amiability between Catholic and Protestant. Edit: I mentioned in a post somewhere else on forums, that an Eastern Orthodox priest told me he views prayers of dead, not as praying to dead or asking them for intercession, but that you are praying for their works, that the work of saints, examples being Peter and Paul's work, or the Salvation Army or Martin Luther, and so forth continue on through those who are living.
  19. I have heard many say that when you see the word of God in the scriptures it is referring to the scriptures themselves being word of God. But the actual Scriptures containing the Word of God are referring to Jesus who is Word of God, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten (not made, this word use to mean to come forth from) from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (John 1:1-4,14-18). When it says, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart,"(Hebrews 4:12) this is referencing Jesus who has sword coming from his mouth, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS," (Revelation 19:11-15), and "I turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades" (Revelation 1:12-18). Whenever the Apostles are referring to Scriptures they say so, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work," (2 Timothy 3:16-17), "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit," (1 Peter 1:20-21), "For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope," (Romans 15:4). I would argue too how can Bible know your thoughts and heart and judge them, only Jesus did this (Mark Luke 6:8, John 2:24-25, Jesus knows you and even says to know Him (Matthew 7:23). Granted the Scriptures are God Breathed and come from the Holy Spirits direction through the writers. But the Word of God is always Jesus Christ Himself, just as it is always Jesus when you read LORD (Jehovah) and Son of Man in Old Testament (example Ezekiel 28, "Son of Man judged Tyre/Satan"). Some history on Scriptures, the 66 Books in our Bible were not compiled into one book until the time of Jerome, when men having seen which books were favored by Early Church and most circulated, examples being which Gospels and Epistles were must encouraging, best cross referencing, and most succinct and clear in telling the Gospel. It would be like if every person who knew Jesus wrote a Gospel account, but people kept finding four in particular, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where what captured what happened best, just like many people turn in report on something they saw, but its the ones that people understand and that conveys the news best that makes the cut. So since the compiling of Bible didn't happen tell around 4th century, it doesn't seem that when Word of God is mentioned in Scripture that it would refer to 66 Books we now have compiled into Holy Bible. These books we hold dear and are God Breathed were read and circulated by the Early Church, but they were orally told and written down on scrolls, parchment, and other vermellum, and Paul got chance to write down some of his epistles in the newly made Codex, the proto-book which didn't need to be unraveled and could be read from page to page, instead of opening lots of scrolls. In addition, the books that were not compiled, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Judas, and so forth were Gnostic texts written much later (200-300yrs after Christ) than the Apostles, and they contained heresies like the Nestorians, Arianism, Coptism, and many more that aren't Orthodox Christianity according to what the Apostles, and Jesus Christ himself taught.
  20. I appreciate you shared so much information. I just have one question, is this from Roman Catholic Catechism or a Reformed Catechism?
  21. I don't know the Apostles and Jesus mention falling way, "9Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name," (Matthew 24:9-10), "Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons," (1 Timothy 4:1), and why would Jesus keep saying these statements, "But the one who endures to the end will be saved," (Matthew 24:13), "The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne," (Revelation 3:21), "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown," (Revelation 3:11), "24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones," (Matthew 24:24), and "But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," (Matthew 24:48-51). Then there are the rebukes to churches in Revelation Chapters One to Three, and Revelation 18 (come out harlot Church) that are clearly threatening the church that if they don't stop being corrupt, they will be cut, "Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don't repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches." (Revelation 2:5). To me it is obvious one can fall away, otherwise why would Jesus keep telling us endure to end, and Paul keep saying fight the good fight of faith? The reason to endure if you can fall away (I am not saying its easy, but I believe Scripture substantiates such a case for it).
  22. I actually attended an African tribal symphony of drums in South Africa. I am part of Christian counseling and humanitarian organization. We were invited by friends to the event, and drum beats made me so drowsy (that and jet lag from flight before). I wasn't effected negatively however, but I can see how an African would know if something is a devil beat (if there is such thing) because of their shamans. I think ultimately you have to trust Christ, be informed, do what you can, but do not become too paranoid about every song that is played, otherwise you couldn't' go out to eat, movies, or anything these days. And trust me, I've tried the whole hermit and ascetic path, it doesn't work (Colossians 2:23). In the end we have to trust Christ and fight the good fight of faith.
  23. In spirit you are right, the Roman Church was already in its adolescence when they added filoque clause. I am of the view that church however is not its own entity until it is recognized as separate institution by its opposition or other churches, which happened in 1054 A.D. When the Roman Church added the Filoque and its Latin Rite, it was still part of Eastern Church until the Great Schism (1054 A.D.), just as Protestants were still part of Catholic Church until they were officially denounced by Pope Leo X and the Papal Bull. Martin Luther actually was trying to reform the Catholic Church, and his later dark history is testimony to his despair, he had no intention of creating a separate church, the same went for John Weasley later, who wanted to reform the Church of England, but ended up with Methodist and Moravian offshoot of Charismaticism called "The First Great Awakening." My point with respect is that church is not its unique and separate identity until recognized by its opposition. For Protestants it was when Roman Catholic Church declared them Excommunicated and enemies of the church, for the Anglican Church it was when Henry VIII broke from Rome and became head of the Church (very Byzantine, Eastern Orthodoxy would approve of a monarch ruling church and state, see how Byzantium was run ecclesiastically with the emperor leading both temporal and spiritual). You are right Judas that in spirit and in spirituality the Roman Church existed before 1054 A.D., but they weren't officially recognized as the Church that reigns to day from St. Peters until they broke with the Eastern Orthodoxy Episcopate and Patriarchs, which again happened in 1054 A.D. I am taking my view form history, that an organization or church doesn't really exist as separate from where it came out of until it is recognized by those around it, this was case for St. Francis of Assisi and his brothers who wanted there new order to be recognized or Ignatius of Loyola and his desire to start the Society of Jesus (The Jesuites, interestingly Jesuit was a son of Tribe of Asher, one of tribes of Israel), she needed to get recognized by the Pope as separate order of Catholic Church. Another way of putting it for others reading is a country isn't as country until its recognized by other countries.
  24. New since 1054 A.D. lol, so its lets see the Roman Catholic Church as we recognize it today is 963yrs old (this date is if you consider how Roman Church operates since Middle Ages). Its older when you consider it was one with Eastern Church for 954yrs which comes out to about 1,694yrs, but if you want to say Roman Church existed in Eastern Church it really began 1,917yrs with Apostolic Fathers (including Ireneaus, Antony of Egypt, Nicholas, and etc). Here is break down Roman Catholic Church's Age According to Its Unique Rite, Papacy, and Etc: 963yrs Roman Catholic Church's Age If you Consider It's Time As One with Eastern Orthodoxy: 1,694yrs Roman Catholic Churches' Ages If you Claim it Began at Apostolic Fathers: 1,917yrs Roman Catholic Churches' Age According To Primacy: 2017yrs I personally choose the first date of 963yrs, because I don't believe the unique Roman Rite was distinctly Roman and what Catholicism has been known for since Early Middle Ages, at least since the Fall of Western Roma. I don't think its Roman Catholic until schism of 1054 A.D. with Eastern Orthodoxy, because Roman Catholicism was recognized as separate church until then, and the model I am using is Protestanism, it wasn't considered a separate church until it was labeled by Roman Catholic and schism was completed. I.e. a church and its unique rite doesn't exist until it is recognize, in same way Anglican or Church of England didn't exist until Henry VIII broke from Rome and made himself head of the church (St. Thomas Beckett's worst nightmare, and what he tried to prevent with Henry II of England). I believe Roman Church was reform of Eastern Church, take the filoque, where Roman Church added "The Holy Spirit proceeds from Father: and the Son," to Nicene Creed. The Romans were right according to Scriptures, "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about M," (John 15:26) and "Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:21-22). The next reform was church that came out the Roman Catholic Church, The Protestant Church which got back to sources, the Scriptures. Then another reform came, get back to the Holy Spirit power with Pentecostals and Charismatics. Now there remains one reform left to get back to Church of New Testament, in essence it has been process of getting back to first primacy, the original church as seen in ACTs and New Testament. Church of Christ and His Apostles 30-100 A.D. (Including Pentecost) Church of the Apostolic Fathers 100-333 A.D. Church of the Byzantines and Eastern Orthodox 354 A.D to 1054 A.D., to present Church of the Roman Rite (Catholicism) 1054-1640 A.D., to present Church of the Protestants 1648-2017 A.D. (Began in 1517 A.D. with Luther, but 1648 was the official sealing of it) Church of the Charismata 1960-to present Church of the Last Days Before Return of Christ 2000-circa. 2021 and 2022 The Church went wayward from Apostolic Fathers through Byzantines/Eastern Orthodox, then starting heading back through Roman Catholicism but stalled until The Reformation, then it reformed further with Charismatic Movement infusing Spirit back into the Church. The goal now is the reform will take the Church back to Church of Christ and Apostles again, meaning the church will have come complete full circle. By the way I am enjoying this conversation.
  25. Ancient cultures did corporal punishment. The Old Testament shows severity of the Law, but the Law is not obsolete, "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13). Now anyone can confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead and will be saved (Romans 10:9-10, cross ref John 4:60). The reason there was stoning is back then mankind has denigrated into such evil, that to deal with disease and murderers there was call to stone. But note, death was blessing from God so we wouldn't be stuck in this sinful awful state, "Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground--for I regret that I have made them."But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD." (Genesis 6:2-8). What is clear is that mankind had become so vile and evil, that God had to punishment them for having sexual relationships with angels even, but thank God showed mercy by favoring Noah, and God's favor then was revisited in greater number as Christ who is God came in flesh to save us (Hebrew 1, John 1:1-14). Jesus even went and preached in hades, "After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (1 Peter 3:19-21) where Jesus took the keyes to hades from devil, "Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had[g] the power of death," (Hebrews 2:14), and "Jesus, who for a little while was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone." (Hebrews 2:9), and now Jesus has holds keys to hades, "I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (Revelation 1:18).
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