OldCoot

You seem to be focused on my reference to modern scholars. I also referenced every English translation prior to the KJV. I didn’t reference the LV in that last post, but the use of discessio in that translation also has a meaning of a physical, spatial departure. There is ample internal and external evidence that supports the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as simply “departure” comes first and within the context of of our gathering together to Him of the first verse, it is a reasoned assertion that the passage is speaking of the removal before the revealing.

Don’t place James Strong’s concordance on the level of scripture. Many Greek scholars both before and after JS made the same assertion I am, including the translators of every English translation prior to the KJV. And many modern reputable scholars like Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Dr. Ed Hindsen, Dr. Andy Woods, etc. all of which were/are heads of theology departments or presidents of Seminaries. Irregardless of that, James Strong offers his interpretation which is worthy to be noted, but it is just one interpretation by one man who was a fallen person saved by grace like the rest of us. JS was not an apostle or such that his work should be considered the final authority.

Indeed. Aposrasia in verse 3 simply means “departure”. Without a reference to what is being departed from, as opposed to the use of apostasia in Acts 21:21 where departing from Moses (the Torah) is shown. Every English translation prior to KJV and DRV used “departure”. In the context laid out in verse one, our gathering to the Lord, departure gives the idea of the removal or rapture before the man of sin is revealed Isaiah 26:19-21 supports that concept as does Psalms 27:5. And these are in lock step with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Then practice it as they practiced it. They confirmed all that Paul taught them from the OT. What Paul taught them now makes up a significant portion of the NT, along with the writings of the other Apostles. The Torah teaches us that a matter can only be established on the testimony of two witnesses. The Bereans showed us how to put that in to action in Acts 17. Every matter must be established from both the OT and NT. I followed the prescription. I showed equivalency in both OT and NT for my position. And likewise, the pre-trib position is in the OT just as much as it is in the NT. And just as Matthew 23-25 the focus is on the Hebrew people. The OT makes it very clear that Yeshua will not return again until Jacob (Israel) acknowledges the offense of rejecting Him and repents of that. Nothing else can cause Yeshua to return and set foot on this planet. And Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23, which is part of the discussion of Matthew 24-25.

Except that application Yeshua was referring to was in the preceding verse..... Mark 13:31 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. The antecedent is "Heaven and earth will pass away". That is what "that day" in verse 32 is referring to. Basic grammar. While I do agree that we may not know the day or the hour of the removal of the righteous, using that verse to support the argument doesn't work. And we are told of many signs that point to that day approaching and to be watching. But the overall post was good. And who will deliver it to them? It won't be believers or one of the Christian radio or TV shows. An angel will fulfill the totality of the word of God that the Gospel will be preached to all the earth...... Revelation 14:6-7 (NKJV) Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” No one will have an excuse.

But this judgement of the sheep and goats is not the GWTJ. That is later after the millennial kingdom period. The S&G judgement is at the end of the GT period and the discourse in Matthew 25 regarding this is an exposition on Joel 3. And in the case, only the gentiles are referred to as the 'nations' or goyim. It really is just that simple if one reads the scripture. There is no resurrection at the S&G judgement. The redeemed that make up the church were already taken out before the GT period kicked into gear. The S&G judgement is to determine who is cast off and who goes into the kingdom. No different rapture or resurrection. If you can find where the resurrection is mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46, please let us know. But since this discourse is on Joel 3, you would have to also provide proof from Joel of that also. By golly, you actually got something right in this discussion! Well done! Except where does it say in Joel 3 or Matthew 25 about people "being cast into eternal life". But both are a judgement of how the Goyim (nations) treated the Hebrew people. Goes allllll the way back to Genesis 12:3. Yeshua did expand on Joel 3. That is what is done in an expository discourse. He did add elements that weren't stated by the HS to Joel. But Joel 3 still remains as the base text Yeshua was teaching from. And that is a slanderous lie. Where have I refused to acknowledge that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh and the promised Messiah? Since you have decided to use character assassination as a tactic here, you will have to proceed on your own. I have no reason to consider anything more you have to say.

Indeed, the church is made up of elect, but they are not the only elect. Don't confuse election with justification. A group can be elect, but that doesn't mean they are individually justified. Isaiah 45:4 is quite clear the Jacob (Israel) is Yahweh's elect and expounds on that in Chapter 65. And as Paul stated, though Israel is elect, not all of them have the faith of Abraham.... true Israel. In Isaiah 65, the elect inherit the land. It ties into what the disciples asked Yeshua before His ascension to the Father.... "is now the time You will restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6-7). Yeshua did not state that the question was invalid or stupid. He essentially stated that it is in the Father's hands to determine the time and they shouldn't worry about it. And in stating that, He affirms that the kingdom will one day be restored to the Hebrew people, that elect group of Yahweh, in accordance with Isaiah. Paul even makes a point in Romans 11:28 that Jacob (Israel) has an election. Peter refers to the Hebrews of the diaspora as being elect, right out of the gate in 1 Peter 1. Keep in mind Galatians 2, where the agreement was struck that Paul would be the emissary to the Gentiles/Goyim, whereas James, Peter, and John would be the emissaries to the Hebrew people. So while Paul calls the redeemed elect and rightly so, Peter calling the Hebrews in the diaspora elect is also right. No conflict. Election is a setting aside or calling out for the purpose of Yahweh. Justification before Yahweh is a separate concept. There are two groups in focus by Yeshua in Matthew 25 / Joel 3: The nations (group 1) and the brethren (group 2). In both scripture passages, it is the nations and Jacob/Israel. If the brethren of Matthew 25 are the believing elect that make up the church, then why is it only the nations (goyim) are being judged and not also the Jacob (Israel) along with them? In the world today, there is three distinct groups..... the nations/gentiles, the Hebrews/Jacob/Israel, and the redeemed that make up the body of Messiah where there is no longer a Hebrew or Gentile distinction. But there are only two groups in view in the passage of Matthew 25. Where is the third group? It was removed via the rapture early on leaving only the nations and the Hebrews. The third group we see in the world today is the redeemed who make up the Body of Messiah. That group is not part of the passages of Matthew 25 or Joel 3. Both the sheep and the goats come from the same group.... the nations. It is those that are declared righteous out of that group that are the saints (sheep) that come out of the GT period and go physically into the kingdom to repopulate the earth. They have eternal life because they are redeemed by Yeshua. Just like the redeemed now have eternal life, yet we are still in our physical bodies at the present time. Yeshua, in Matthew 25, is expanding on Joel 3, the nations are judged and separated in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, the very spot where Yeshua is delivering the Olivet discourse on the mount that overlooks that valley. Those listening to Him knew exactly what He was referring to, and it was in Joel 3 where the nations are being divided over how they treated the Hebrew people... the same people who are the physical brethren of the Hebrew Messiah.... Yeshua/Jesus. No, what I have stated provides a fine demonstration of following the guidance of scripture in how to establish a matter. The Torah (teaching) tells us that no matter can be established without the testimony of at least two witnesses. The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works. Essentially stating that for any matter to be established, it must be equally affirmed in both OT and NT. I have done that by showing the correlation between Mathew 25:31-46 and Joel 3:1-17. Likewise how in both the OT and NT, Jacob(Israel) is called elect just like the redeemed are called elect. It is that some have failed to follow the guidance of scripture that they come up with alternative ideas about who is who in Matthew 25. Although you chose to ridicule of me in your post, I will not return the favor.

The removal or catching away may not be seen by all, or even any, but several are going to notice that there has been the disappearance of several folks. I believe the young children will be gone as well. Nothing definitive to support that in scripture is but the fact that they are not spiritually accountable and what the purpose of the GT is all about.

The removal or catching away may not be seen by all, or even any, but several are going to notice that there has been the disappearance of several folks. I believe the young children will be gone as well. Nothing definitive to support that in scripture is but the fact that they are not spiritually accountable and what the purpose of the GT is all about.

Indeed! That is the only mention of no man knowing, the angels not knowing, and the Son not knowing. Only the Father knowing. it is a secret to Him and no one else..... Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. "that day and hour" refers to the antecedent in the previous verse... Heaven and Earth passing away.

That portion from Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the redeemed of the church. Those taken later in that passage are the ones who are condemned, not the righteous. Just like those who were condemned in Noah's day were taken by the flood were the condemned while Noah and his family were saved thru it. So again, the passage is not relevant in regards to the redeemed of the church. That time will be just like Noah's day when the condemned were taken away. This passage is further expanded in Matthew 25 regarding the Parable of the Maidens and the Sheep and Goat judgement. Both of which, again, have nothing to do with the redeemed of the church. The target audience of the Olivet discourse is the Hebrew people. If you want a discourse directed at the redeemed of the church by Yeshua, then that is in John 13 onward. Yes indeed, there will be righteous that come out of the Tribulation Period. But that doesn't mean they go into that period righteous. The scripture, both OT and NT says in multiple passages that the redeemed.... before the tribulation period begins.... are kept from that time coming on the earth. But there will be those that witness the removal, see what is coming, and place their trust in Yeshua. But since they did not do that before the removal, they are stuck to deal with the Tribulation Period that is coming upon all the people of the earth. Just like the unbelieving Hebrews will have to face the music also. And it will be such as to drive them to realize the overall rejection of Yeshua by the Hebrew people and the acknowledge their mistake and petition for Yeshua to rescue them. That will be required before Yeshua will ever return and set foot on this planet. Hosea 5-6 is quite clear about that and Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39. Again, it comes down to a proper perspective of what the Tribulation Period is all about, what its purpose is, and who is the primary target for that purpose. And the saints during that period are just a side bar, not the focus.

It is tricky only in that there has been a plethora of translations regarding the Greek "apostosia" in verse 3. Apostosia simply means "departure". it can only mean a departure from the faith if that was outlined in the passage. The only other passage that uses apostosia is Acts 21:21 and it explicitly says what is being departed from.... the Law of Moses. Up till the KJV came on the scene, every English translation simply used "departure", "the departure", "a departure", etc. Many well know Greek scholars concur that the passage should only say that, not falling away, apostasy, rebellion, etc. The context of the chapter is in verse one..... the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. Not our departing or falling away from Him. The departure of verse 3 only makes grammatical sense if it is the departure that is our gathering to the Lord. And the contextual structure of the Greek in verse 3 implies a specific departure event, not a general departure over time like a "falling away" would suggest. Just as in real estate the main focus is location, proper hermeneutics demands that context be the primary focus in scripture interpretation. Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Professor of NT Greek for Moody Bible Institute for over 40 years, Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, Dr. Ed Hindson, dean of the School of Religion at Liberty University, etc all concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has a physical, literal departure in view. As do the translators of the Geneva Bible, Tyndale Bible, Beza Bible, etc translated the passage as simply "departure". Likewise, the standard Bible of the church for 1200 years, the Latin Vulgate, uses discessio as the Latin for apostasia which also has the meaning of a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual one. Actually, according to Dr. Andy Woods, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib.... game, set, match.

Didn't forget at all. Noah and Lot are relevant, but not in the way you seem to be implying, and certainly not relevant to the discussion at hand. Regarding the sheep and goats, only those who are righteous (sheep) are allowed to enter into the kingdom physically. Sure they go to eternal life as the scripture says, just like the redeemed living today have passed from death to eternal life thru the Messiah. Do you not know that the redeemed who trust in Messiah now have passed from death to eternal life? Don't read more into it than what is being said. The sheep and goat judgement is simply an expanded discourse on Joel 3 regarding the judgement of the nations to determine who will go into the kingdom and who will be cast off. Only those who are righteous by their trust in Messiah as shown by how they treated His brethren, the Hebrews, will go into the kingdom. And being righteous, they will go to eternal life just like anyone now who trusts in Messiah is given eternal life. But those righteous out of the tribulation that go into the kingdom will also have children just like the righteous currently who have passed form death to eternal life now have children. And just like redeemed, eternal life possessing believers now in their physical bodies still sin, so will those who go into the kingdom in their physical bodies. And their children will sin. If you seriously study the kingdom parables in Matthew 13, you will find that sin eventually permeates the kingdom to a level that when Satan is released, in accordance with Revelation 20, he will be able to foment a great final rebellion against the Lord. This is also shown in Psalms 2.

Actually, the contents of Matthew 25 show a separation of those who will go into the millennial kingdom and those who will not. The separation of the nations into sheep and goat divisions in Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3. And it has nothin to do with the redeemed of the church. The brethren of the discourse is the Hebrew people. Those of the nations are judged on how they treated the Hebrew people, Yeshua's brethren in the flesh. The parable of the maidens early in Chapter 25 was a discourse on Ezekiel 20, where the Hebrews themselves are separated at the end of the tribulation period. Yeshua does not have a myriad of brides, only one. These maidens in the parable are the bridesmaids. And it is those who make it thru these two different judgements who go into the kingdom who will repopulate the earth. There will be children born in the kingdom. There also will still be sin in the kingdom. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 and various passages in the OT show that. Why else would the Lord and the redeemed rule over the earth despotically with a "rod of iron"? Why would those who do not go up to Jerusalem at the feast of Tabernacles have rain withheld from their land? To make any matter worth considering, it requires equal support in both NT and OT. That is the standard established in scripture by the Torah and the Bereans in Acts 17. Otherwise there is a risk of misapplying a passage.

That's cool. I have no problem with you thinking it is all meaningless. I don't answer to you. You are just another sinner redeemed by the blood. No better or worse than anyone else. And you are not the final arbiter of what the scripture says. We have equal standing when it comes to scripture interpretation. And of these facts, you will see. But with my analysis of this, I did follow the scripture mandate that any matter has to be supported by both the OT and NT. And for your interpretation of these events to have any standing and be considered by the brethren, you must also adhere to that standard, and I have yet to see that.

That would be in error. While the wrath being foisted on the redeemed is of the evil one, unlike where the seals are broken by Messiah, the wrath that the redeemed are suffering under today is not because the Lord is starting events. It is solely the discretion of the evil one. The primary focus at this time is the redeemed of the church. The primary focus of the tribulation period is not, as explained in my last post. It is because the time is short and that calamities are coming upon the condemned that the outpouring of the wrath of the evil one is piled on those who have come to faith in Messiah. In either case, the wrath upon the redeemed is solely the discretion of the evil one. Again, it is not the focus of the tribulation period that is being brought about by the Lord. The saints part of that period is just a side note. And not keeping this perspective of the Tribulation period takes away from what the purpose of that period is all about. And its primarily purpose has nothing to do with saints.

Except those who are saints in the tribulation were not saints at the start of the tribulation period. Just like the saints of Matthew 27 were not the saints of the church either. And Paul is very clear that the redeemed associated with the NT church are removed before the man of sin is revealed. Also Isaiah 26 makes it very clear that before the Lord comes out of His place to execute judgement on those who dwell on the earth, that the righteous are hidden away in their chambers, which is a reference to John 14. Likewise, as has been stated before, Psalms 27 suggests that the righteous are protected in the pavilion of the tabernacle of the Lord during "the" time of trouble, which seems to be the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" referenced by Jeremiah 30. And Paul wrote that before the "Day of the Lord" would come, the departure would occur and then the man of sin would be revealed, the antichrist/lawless one/the Assyrian/son of perdition. The price that is paid by the saints of the tribulation period is a result that they were not saints when the tribulation period started. The OT saints also were not part of the specific group "the church" that came later. Likewise, the tribulation saints are not part of the church either. All are redeemed in the same way, by the blood of Messiah, but not all are part of the same group. The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation). The saints of the OT and the Tribulation period are not promised to reign on the earth along with Messiah with a rod of iron like those redeemed of the church are as per Revelation 2:26-27. And getting bogged down in the saints issue of the tribulation period obscures what the tribulation period is all about and designed for. To bring calamity upon those who "dwell on the earth" which in scripture is always a reference to the condemned, and to drive the Hebrew people to the realization that Yeshua is indeed their promised Messiah and to turn to Him, for as Hosea states, He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him. And He affirmed that in Matthew 23.

Well, I wouldn't quite go along with that.... Matthew 15:24 (NKJV) But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now after His death, burial, and resurrection, the situation changed. Especially at Acts 10.

Let's see.... was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed on the world during the Great Flood? Was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed against Sodom and Gomorrah? Yet the first actual mention of the word "wrath" was not till the end of Genesis. Also, was it not at the direction of the Lord the conquering and subjugation of Israel by the Assyrians? Yet it was not the Lord who actually did the work. The Lord uses even secular and evil people to accomplish what He has stated will be. Nebuchadnezer was certainly not one of the elect, but he sure accomplished what the Lord said would happen to Judea. And many in Canaan who were faithful to the Lord suffered and died under the hand of the conquerers which were allowed to do what they did by the Lord. The events of the seals will not happen if Yeshua does not open them. Therefore, it is under His authority that the events are allowed to be revealed and occur. In a court of Law, that would mean He is the one who actually was responsible for the events even though He allows others to carry out the details. The saints of that time are not the only ones who will suffer and die. Many that are not saints will also suffer and die. It is indeed the wrath of the Lamb that is going on from Seal One. Those that dwell on the earth finally come to that realization by Seal Six when they say the wrath "has come" (or become known or revealed to them). And Paul is quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Day of the Lord" will not occur until the departure occurs which happens before the man of sin / antichrist is revealed who arguably is the character referenced in Seal One of Revelation. He was calming the Thessalonians down because they had been told or a forged letter had been given them that stated they were in the "Day of the Lord". And Paul had to remind them of what he told them before (see 1 Thessalonians). Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it? If they had been taught they would go thru that time, why did Paul need to set them straight?

And so, Brothers and Sisters, comfort one another with those words. Y'all get to face the calamities that are coming upon the earth and go thru some version of protestant purgatory to prove yourselves worthy. Boy, that makes one want to get up in the morning and proclaim the Lord to a dying world. We overcome the enemy? Really? Might want to re-read Daniel 7 again along with various passages in Revelation. The saints don't overcome the enemy, the enemy overcomes the saints. Only after the Lord overcomes the evil one will the saints be given the Kingdom. They don't overcome the enemy and take the kingdom. They don't create the Kingdom. They are given the Kingdom.

If the Torah is no longer relevant then, please explain why it will be during the Millennial kingdom that those who do not come to observe the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land. And how is it that Ezekiel states clearly in minute detail of the temple that is during the time the Lord reigns on the earth and there will be sacrifices that go on. The example of the Torah I gave regarding what one would do if guilty of manslaughter (unintentional murder) and how it equates to how we are before Yeshua is a valid application of what the Torah was teaching us about Messiah. No worries. I am confident that there will be classes in the Millennial kingdom that will teach these things. And free of charge! Folks like you love to get all melodramatic. A speech? Was I on YouTube that you saw and heard me talk about this? I just expounded in writing. That is hardly a "speech". I had speaking presentation in college and I think I know the difference between a written argument and an oral argument (speech).

Sounds good until you compare it with Revelation 21 which is describing a new heaven and new earth. And that is indeed after the millennial kingdom. Revelation 6:14 that you quote, and the verses that surround it, could describe nuclear war also or even a similar occurrence to what happened to the earth during the flood of Noah, depending on the person reading the text. Revelation 21 is pretty solid in terms of heaven and earth passing away, whereas Revelation 6 seems to be referring to cataclysmic events as opposed to a total elimination of the earth. On the heaven departing like a scroll, watch detailed nuclear air bursts and watch the effect on the atmosphere (heaven). Revelation 6:14 (NKJV) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place Revelation 6:14 (NASB) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Revelation 6:14 (ESV) The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Revelation 6:14 (CJB) The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Revelation 6:14 (ISV) The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Thank you. I like to think that every once in a while even a blind squirrel will find a nut.

Correct. Matthew 24:35-36 (NKJV) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. "that day" refers to the previous antecedent in the discourse... heaven and earth passing away. The only day that is specified in scripture as the day that is a total secret, only known to the Father, is when Heaven and earth pass away. Of course, that is after the millennium. All the scripture you posted is supportive that the antichrist will not be revealed until other conditions happen. So by logical extension, when those things happen, folks will know the antichrist is about to be revealed. Thereby, it is not a total secret.

I can understand the warning and it is proper to give folks a heads up about what is on the horizon, but I am not convinced that there is any way to truly prepare. Yeshua said it would be a time worse than anything that has happened before or ever will again. Imagine history.... the flood of Noahs's day where things were so bad that Yahweh felt the need to start over. The wars of history. The great sieges of Jerusalem, Leningrad, etc where hundreds of thousands died of starvation, even resorting to eating their own children. The gulags, concentration camps, etc. Nothing the has happened will compare to what is coming. I am not sure anyone can really be prepared. Yeshua said that men's hearts would fail them (cardiac arrest) for what they see coming upon the earth. That is why it is critical now to make people aware of the reconciliation and redemption thru Yeshua.