OldCoot

Were there saints before Yeshua was crucified, buried, and rose from the grave? If there were, since the Church did not exist until after Yeshua returned to His place and Shavuot was 7 weeks after His resurrection, who were those saints a part of? And given that many of those OT saints were resurrected just after Yeshua was resurrected (Matthew 27), and according to many early Church writers (late 1st thru early 3rd centuries) were taken by Yeshua to the Father at that time, when would they then have been factored into a Church that didn't exist yet? Point being, just like the Bible doesn't say t as the trinity, the concept is throughout scripture. Likewise, just because the Bible doesn't specifically delineate groups of righteous people does not negate that concept. And just because it doesn't fit within one's world view of how things are does not make is any less a reality. But if that doesn't make the case, the following will... Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. "among those born of women" would include Moses, Abraham, King David, etc. JB was greater than all of them. So then, was JB saved? I would think so. But those in the kingdom are greater than JB. So, here the Lord Himself delineates between OT saints and Church saints. So it is really not all that far fetched to make the assertion that there are differing groups of righteous people. OT Saints, Church Saints, GT Saints.

Interesting take on the passage of Luke 19:12-27. Now, following the requirement in scripture that a matter can only be settled by the testimony of two or more witnesses, please substantiate your claim that it literally applies to amount of ruling authority in the millennial kingdom from the OT, the second witness. Regarding the crowns, scripture also says we will cast them before the Lord.

Read my post a little slower. I stated that I believe the 144K are not the only ones saved during that time.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, (See John 14:2-3 and Psalms 27:5) And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; (not just punishment of Jewish people) The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the room, but judging/punishing the inhabitants of the earth seems to include a lot more that you are suggesting. And the righteous dead and living are removed and hidden from these events before they start. Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth; (See revelation 12) Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. (see Revelation 12) 8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? (See 1 Peter 2:9) For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children. This passage does not apply the nation of Israel being born in 1948. She (Israel) does not give birth to She (Israel), but gives birth to the male child, the body of Messiah who is immediately caught up to God's throne..... as soon as it is born per Revelation 12. Not after it has lived 33 years, died, and is resurrected, like Yeshua was. So it does not apply to the Messiah only (head of the body) but to the Messiah's body. (Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12) And it happens as soon as the woman (Israel) starts labor, which is the time of Jacob's trouble or final tribulation period....... Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. But still, the church, the world, nor anything else has anything to do with when Yeshua will physically return to the earth. Only Israel turning back to Yeshua, acknowledging their offense of rejecting Him, and petitioning for His return. There is no need for the church to be around when all this happens. Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. (in other words, both house of Jacob) I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” 1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; (see Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8) On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. But this wrath must also be directed to the world in general, as per Revelation 9 and 16, and they do not repent of their deeds even after these events that are directed by God upon the earth, going back to Isaiah 26:21 at the beginning of this post.

You seem to have forgotten Psalms, Isaiah, Zephaniah, and Jeremiah. The entire earth, or sometime called "the nations" is in view. Keep in mind the Bereans. They were commended for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. All they had was the Tanakh (OT) and other writings. There was no formal NT in place. So, by that example and the prescription in the Torah that any matter can only be decided on the testimony of two or more witnesses, anything espoused in the NT has to be confirmed in the OT. And your assertion that God's wrath of the final tribulation period is not upon the whole earth is not supported in the OT. Isaiah 26 is especially rich about that final period and laced with allusions to it.

Well, in that context, if you are implying the church is removed from this time, yes. In the anti-pretrib position I was responding to, no. See above.

The one thing you do not seem to understand.... that the redeemed are not in the picture. And the other thing that you misunderstand.... what the final tribulation is all about, who is allowing it, and who is it intended for. While the church in general does endure tribulations as Yeshua said it would, those tribulations are at the discretion of evil people in a corrupted world. The final tribulation period is at the discretion of the Lord for His intended purposes. Just the verses you posted from 1 Thessalonians 5 confirm that. "as a thief in the night". Any position other than pre-trib, the time of the Lord's return can be calculated and figured out. One cannot calculate and figure when a thief is coming, all one can do is prepare for it to happen. Also, what is the intention of a thief? To take away that which He wants and return to where He came from. Yeshua will come when no one expects it and snatch away that which is His... the redeemed. At the end of the trib period, Yeshua is coming to establish His kingdom here on earth, not to grab something and get away like a thief. Calling that period like "Travail upon a woman" in those verses is linking the idea to the dozens of OT passages that equate the labor pains to the tribulation that comes upon Israel. And the final tribulation period starts at the BEGINNING of the labor pains per many passages in the OT. And in the OT, there is reference that a birth occurs just before or at the very start of those birth pains. It is the Church (body of Messiah per Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12), having been conceived in Jerusalem by the HS in AD32, that is being and born and delivered to the Father. That is the picture in the parenthetical passage of Revelation 12:1-5. Those that are the redeemed in the Body are the ones who will rule and reign with Messiah with a rod of Iron as He has... Revelation 2:26-27. And your contention that the body of Messiah is divided under the pre-trib model is flawed. The Body of Messiah is not the OT saints nor the final tribulation Saints. It is those called out and redeemed from Shavuot 32AD on up thru the time it is removed prior to the final tribulation period. Remember the Parable of the Pearl that Yeshua taught us? Oysters are not kosher... picture gentiles. A pearl is started as an irritation to the oyster... picture the church. It grows by accretion... picture hardship and trials that strengthen and grow the church body. When it is time, the pearl is removed from the oyster and set as a item of adornment.... picture the removal of the church and being crowned, robed, and joined to the Messiah. The ones who are persecuted and are killed in the time of the final tribulation, entered into the final tribulation in unbelief. They were not the redeemed. They are the intended target of the final tribulation. If they had already believed, they would have been removed. The period also is design to drive unbelieving Jacob (Israel and Judah) to its knees and cry out for the Messiah to rescue them. Yeshua is NOT going to return to earth like the first time until this happens per Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2. Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39. And the intended purpose of the final tribulation period is to punish the rest of the world and when they generally still will not repent and still reject Yeshua (except for those who will repent and are killed for that decision), proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they are destined for eternal punishment. See Revelation 9 and Revelation 11. The Lord is making His prosecutorial case against the world during this time so that His judgement against them will be substantiated and justified. There are many OT passages that support a pre-trib position. Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. All proclaiming just what Paul said that the redeemed are not to endure God's wrath and will be hidden from it in a place He has prepared for the redeemed to be hidden. There is as much or more references to this event in the OT than in the NT. It was not understood from the OT passages how this would happen, so Paul was given that mystery to reveal... that the redeemed would be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up to be with the Lord. indeed. there are none so blind as those who will not see.... especially so those that dismiss 2/3 of the Bible in making an assertion.

Speaking to Israel, not the believers. When Yeshua said this, the NT church did not exist. One must always view context and the audience. The above comports with all the OT passages referring to the final tribulation period coming upon Israel and that Israel would be saved out of it. Jeremiah, Hosea, and on and on.

Well, the verse doesn't say that the rapture is on the last day, it says that Yeshua will raise him up on the last day. That can have a very broad meaning. Most likely being resurrected to eternal life. Not everyone who is resurrected is "raptured" and not everyone who is "raptured" is resurrected. And It could mean the last day of the period of Church on the earth, last day of the final tribulation period, or last day of the current earth before the new earth. Last trumpet can have a broad meaning also, most likely NOT the 7th trump of Revelation. For one, the information regarding that was only given to Yeshua who revealed it to John via an angel. Paul did not have access to that information when he was alive, so there has to be another meaning. And there is. Paul was one of the most educated Hebrew rabbinical scholars of his day, having been trained by Gamliel, one of the greatest sages of Hebrew antiquity. So what would be his perspective. Shavuot (pentecost) is called the First Trump in Hebrew rabbinical thinking. The last day of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) is called the Last Trump. Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) is called the Great Trump. Paul gives many allusions in scripture, as does Yeshua, that the removal of the righteous, no one can know the day or the hour. Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) is called "the day that no man knows" because it falls on the first of the month, and that can only be determined when the new moon is certified. And it is a 2 day event. So it is the only feast day that fulfills the requirement of "no man knows the day or hour". And the "great trumpet" is referenced in Matthew 24 where it specifically talks about the final gathering when Yeshua literally returns to earth to set up His kingdom.

Of course, anything we say regarding the 24 Elders is speculation, but some speculations have more scriptural support. For instance, King David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions or courses in 1 Chronicles 24. Obviously, there were more than 24 priests in Israel. Same thing for the musicians. They also were divided into 24 divisions. There were 288 musicians when David did this. Yeshua is King in the authority of King David, being of the lineage of David. Gabriel confirms this to Mary. Peter stated that those he was writing to, the Church, that we are a royal priesthood. That is not said of any other redeemed group such as the OT saints. Nor is it said of the tribulation saints. So when we take just those particular scripture references in view, it is more substantive that the 24 Elders are the redeemed from the time of the church's beginning at Pentecost until its removal prior to the final tribulation period. I see the OT saints of Matthew 27 as being the first fruits of the harvest that Yeshua, being our High Priest, took to the Father in accordance with Leviticus 23. He is the first fruits of those that are resurrected, but He is not part of the harvest. He told Mary at the tomb area not to handle or touch Him, as He had not yet ascended to the Father. As our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father. Other than that, there is no scriptural support for what happened to those resurrected OT saints. Many early church writers who either knew the Apostles or students of them state that these saints were indeed taken to the Father by Yeshua, but none of them even hint that they are considered the 24 Elders.

Still stands. Those seals would not be opened unless Yeshua opened them, and the events they represent would not happen without those seals being opened. God doesn't always take a direct hand in executing calamity. Remember Sargon of Assyria? Prophecy is pattern as much as it is prediction. There are many instances in scripture where God uses even pagan individuals to deliver His judgement and wrath. Now knowing that, take a look at seal one again.

Yeah, we gloss over many of Yeshua's comments regarding feasts, weddings, harvests, etc and, in general, we tend to miss so much o the nuances that Yeshua is trying to bring out. Just that the church has been more western minded for the majority of the last 2000 years and forgotten the roots of the faith. So, it is not really the fault of the individual believer. We can thank the growing number of Hebrew people who are turning to Yeshua in these latter days for opening this sort of stuff up to the rest of us. Even the examples buried within non-believing Jewish traditions give astounding references to Yeshua the Messiah. The matzah and Afikomen of the passover meal for instance is a a visual presentation of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah. Many Jewish people do not know why the example of the afikomen is in the passover meal or who made it part of the tradition. But when you see it first hand, wow, it really brings out a visual story of Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection.

Thank you. If you really want icing on the cake, study the ancient Jewish wedding ritual and place Yeshua and the Church right in the middle of it. A lot of the comments made by Yeshua come into technicolor view when seen thru the lens of the ancient Jewish betrothal and wedding process. Yeshua gave us many clues on how to look at stuff He was saying. Weddings, feasts, harvests, etc. Even the ancient wedding ritual hints at a pre-trib removal of the righteous. The ancient Jewish betrothal process mirrors Yeshua in regards to the establishing of the New Covenant, His return to the Father to prepare a place, and His coming to gather us and take us to that place. The wedding takes place, there is what is known as "the 7 days of the chupah" in which he bride and groom consumate the marriage. At the end of those 7 days, then the wedding feast is held. The groom comes at night, unannounced, to get his bride. He has been preparing a place for his bride and the bride has been preparing herself for the wedding day. She doesn't know exactly when the groom will come to get her. They are wed and consumate the marriage. The announcement of the wedding is told to others so that they can come to the wedding feast. After 7 days in the Chupah or wedding chamber, the groom and bride come forth and the wedding feast begins. Cool Stuff!

Indeed, they are redeemed, but they are not the NT Ekklesia. The NT Ekklesia, commonly known as "the Church" did not begin till 7 weeks after the OT saints were resurrected in Matthew 27. Peter is very clear that who he is writing to is a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), AKA kings and priests mentioned in Revelation. In that same verse he makes the statement that we are a chosen generation and holy nation. That separates us from those of the OT Saints and the Tribulation Saints. It is never stated of OT redeemed or GT redeemed that they are a royal priesthood. King David, of the lineage of Messiah and on whose authority Yeshua will reign over Israel and the entire earth (Luke 1:32), divided the priesthood into 24 divisions or courses. That set the precedence. It is quite reasonable to assert from that event that the royal priesthood / kings and priests / Ekklesia / NT Church is also divided into 24 groups, in the case of Revelation 4 -5, 24 Elders. Therefore, it is reasonable, again, to assert that the 24 Elders represent the NT Believers prior to the GT period, as they are present with Yeshua when He is given the scroll that is commonly understood to be the start of the final tribulation period.

You are confusing what goes on in the here and now within the body compared to actual responsibilities during the millennial kingdom. There may indeed be some similarities, but there is no scriptural support for who gets what position in the millennial kingdom. The only assertion that can be supported is the concept of varying rewards given at the Bema seat judgement of the believers. Since fruits of the spirit here and now has no equivalence with the rank or position of various believers in the millennial kingdom, there is no point in my going down the rabbit trail you are.

And I think that these things are right at the door. The scales are falling from many Hebrew eyes. When one of the most venerated Haredi Rabbi's of Israel (Yitzhak Kaduri) makes the claim that Yeshua is indeed the promised Messiah, and several of his Yeshiva students have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, there is no way to deny that the end time events are right at the door. YHVH is already putting His focus on Israel again. The stage is set. Israel is a nation. Those that come against Israel in the last days are joining up. More Hebrew people are coming to faith in Yeshua than at any other time in history. They are in the land and by being there, they are now searching the scriptures more and being more receptive to the Gospel of Yeshua. Still a small percentage, but growing fast. If someone can't see what is about to happen soon, they are living in a fantasy land.

What really breaks my heart is all those in such organizations as Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, etc that deny the true nature of Yeshua. Those folks, while upstanding and honorable in their daily lives usually, will be the ones most caught unawares. It is easy to dismiss blatantly evil folks or those really out on the fringe of reality as being doomed. It is more difficult to accept that those who have "another Jesus" and work and live along side of us will endure a similar fate. And I think it may be worse for them since they have had access to the scripture. I have generally felt that the level of judgement is also dependent on the amount of revelation that one has had. And groups like JW's, LDS, CS's, etc have the revelation right in their lap. There will be no excuse. The JW's have a corrupted scripture they use, but it can easily be shown quite quickly that Yeshua is indeed YHVH, the first and the last. The LDS generally use the KJV, so there is no excuse. Likewise the Christian Science folks. They all have the revelation of Yeshua as the Messiah. The one true God who manifested Himself to us as one of us. And is the only path of redemption. Perhaps some of us should focus on trying to show the true Yeshua to those other groups. It can only be done in love. None of the beating them over the head with a study Bible. They need to see the liberty and love of Yeshua in us first. Earn their respect, trust, and friendship, then they will be open to listening. The same prinicples that should apply to anyone else we come across. Even Muslims. Time is getting so short.

There is a interesting concept regarding Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). It is the only feast day that starts on the first of a month. The first of the month can only be determined when two witnesses confirm the New Moon has begun. The Torah requires that two or more witnesses are required to settle a matter. So, by extension, Yom Teruah is also called "the day that no man knows" since it cannot be established when it starts until the New Moon is established. Also, Yom Teruah is a two day period. So, therefore, it could relate to the removal of the righteous and still adhere to the scripture of "no one knows the day or the hour". In Jewish thought, Yom Teruah is also known as the coronation of Messiah as King, the wedding of the Messiah, and the sealing of the righteous before the Days of Awe (7 days) between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur. Yom Teruah is the 1st of Tishri and lasts two days. The Days of Awe are 3 Tishri thru 9 Tishri, 7 days. Yom Kippur is the 10th of Tishri. A common greeting among the more orthodox Jewish people on Yom Teruah is.... "may you be sealed for a new year". It is not unrealistic to see Yom Teruah as the removal of the righteous before the GT period. The 7 Days of Awe could represent the 7 years of the GT period. And Yom Kippur when the Atonement of YHVH comes (Yeshua). One cannot make doctrine out of that alone, but it does support the general outline of the scripture. And all the feasts point to and speak of the Messiah. Every letter. Given that the spring feasts were fulfilled precisely as they were intended during the first coming of Yeshua, it is not unreasonable to assert that the fall feast days will also be precisely fulfilled by Yeshua.

Pretty much. Those already redeemed are kept from that time since it is not intended for them.

It does according to many Hebrew expositors. But I fully concur that we will not be certain this side of eternity.

Well, since the passage in Revelation 2 does not quite delineate what exactly is meant by "overcome", and the verses you mentioned didn't quite hit the "overcome" topic, we have to resort to how it was used elsewhere in scripture to get a general idea of what is meant. One of the best examples is here.... 1 John 5:4 (NKJV) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 1 John 4:2-4 (NKJV) By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. So it would appear the those who overcome are all those who are of God thru the Messiah. Of course, that doesn't mean everyone who is in the local Assembly. One can even be baptized, a member of the local congregation, etc and still not be in the Body of Messiah. That is thru faith in who Yeshua is and the finished work of redemption He provided. I am probably stretching a little here, but your counter to the question seems to suggest a works righteousness methodology. All of those things you mention are important to tackle, but no one can tackle them unless they are redeemed already. And that can only be done by faith in Yeshua and the redemption He provided thru His death, burial, and resurrection. No works, no efforts, nothing else.

Now what is it that makes folks think that some concept is only for "itching ears" That is taking a play right out of secular politics. Sure, all our concepts on these things are somewhat clouded, as Paul himself said we see thru a glass dimly. But the "itching ears" comment can be said about any other idea on these things as well. Those that use that sort of terminology are evidencing a level of pride, that their way is the only way and everyone else is playing on the highway. It is arrogant to the extreme. And the verse you mentioned, while it does seem to take on the side of the issue regarding the tribulation saints, it doesn't in any way negate the concept of the 24 Elders being the removed Ekklesia. There is one thing for certain in regard to those tribulation saints that is NOT said of the 24 elders.... Revelation 7:13-17 (NKJV) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” They are a delineated group from the 24 Elders. And they are not sitting on thrones like the 24 Elders. The 24 Elders are NOT angels either, as they also are redeemed of every tribe, tongue, nation, etc just like every other human. Given that there are far more than 24 Tribes, tongues, nations, etc, it has to refer to a collective body. And since they are present when the sealed scroll is given to Yeshua, it is evident that they are the redeemed Ekklesia. Again, they are not the same group as the tribulation saints. And reigning with Yeshua has multiple facets. It could be from a local constable on up to a district governor. Or even the local dog catcher maybe. But all would be part of the reigning monarchy. There will be lots of administrative folks I would imagine. But not everyone will rule with a rod of iron (i.e. judicial authority) as is said of those redeemed of the Ekklesia in Revelation 2. You could well be right in regard to the reigning thing being equal with the Ekklesia / 24 Elders. But to resort to secular political type tactics (itching ears comment) to get the point across is pretty low. Anyone is welcome to disagree, but it is definitely not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit to resort to that sort of thing.

That requires a definition of what is being “overcome” for you to make that distinction.

But Darby did not "bring in" the ideas of a pre-trib. There were others that affirmed that position long before that. Writings have been found since the early days of the Reformation period where the pre-trib, dispensational view as brought out. It can be argued that there were allusions to a pre-trib, dispensational view back to the 2nd and 3rd Century. Darby did make it more commonplace, but hardly the originator. People give Darby way too much credit. But Goebbels had one thing right. If one tells a falsehood long enough it eventually will be viewed as truth.

The Luke 21:35 "those who dwell on the earth" is a key also. Do a in-depth study of earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth, etc throughout scripture. It almost always gives the impression of those who have rejected God and chose the earth. A specific group, not the broad meaning of everyone who lives on the earth. example: John 8 and the woman caught in adultery. Many folks ponder what Yeshua was writing in the dirt. It was a fulfillment of Jeremiah 17. The period according to John in the previous chapter was the time of the great day of the feast of Tabernacles, Shemini Atzeret (the 8th day). That is the same day that the high priest would take water from the pool of Siloam (living water) and offer it on the alter. The following day is the day that the woman was brought before Yeshua. Jeremiah tells us.... Jeremiah 17:13 (NKJV) O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters.” Yeshua wrote the names of these guys "on the earth" because they rejected Him, the source of living water, and they departed. It is one of dozens of examples in scripture that give the impression that those categorized as "dwelling on the earth" are those who reject the Lord. So, to the point of the thread, it is those that "dwell on the earth" or more aptly, reject the Lord, that will be caught unawares and caught in the trap or snare.