OldCoot

Well, that is partially correct. The Revelation hadn't been given to Yeshua by the Father yet when He made that statement. When it was, He passed the Revelation on to us thru John. Paul was given some unique insight as he expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. In that passage, "twinkling of an eye" and "last trump" were already common idioms in Paul's time for Feast of Trumpets / Rosh Hashanah. The one aspect to that Feast day is that it is a two day event that falls on the first of the month, which can only begin after certified confirmation of the New Moon. So it can be "no man knows the day or hour" yet still the time of its occurrence at the Feast time. And what Yeshua said fits this also. Another common idiom for Feast of Trumpets is "the day no man knows".

How is it not possible? Many think it is good 'ol fashioned rolling in the hay sort of thing. It could be very much more nefarious. Cross species DNA manipulation is now possible. Transhumanism is a reality. It is hardly a stretch to think that mingling of one DNA with another is not reality. It is pretty arrogant on human's part to impose limitations on what angels bent on mischief are capable of doing. One good angel, alone, slaughtered 185,000 Assyrian army soldiers in one night without breaking a sweat. I am quite sure that a psychotic super cherub (Satan) has a lot more tricks up his sleeve than we have any idea of. Putting technology constraints on these creature is very myopic. While Enoch is not part of the cannon, it is quoted by Jude. So I guess we had better throw out the Book Of Jude also. Just like Peter quotes outside sources on the same topic. Tartarus, which is a place far below hell as the earth is below heaven is mentioned only one time in scripture, in 2 Peter 2:4. If not for secular Greek writings, we would have no way to know what it means. You do know, correct, that Apolloyon is the Greek deity Apollo? And in Daniel regarding the last days.... Daniel 2:43 (NKJV) As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay For something to mingle with the seed of men to make any sense, it has to be something other than the seed of Men that is being mingled. So still a ruse and not possible?

It is written by S. Y. Agnon. ISBN 0-8052-0100-9 Copyright 1948, 1965, and 1975. https://www.amazon.com/Days-Awe-Shmuel-Yosef-Agnon/dp/0805201009/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1504362966&sr=8-2&keywords=days+of+awe+agnon

There are a lot of striking allusions that a Yom Kippur is when Yeshua does make that full second coming and destroy Israel's enemies. There are some that say that a future Rosh Hashanah is when the righteous are removed. There are 7 days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, which could correspond to the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. With Yom Kippur at the end. We will know when we know!

George, been reading a book recently called the Days of Awe, written by a Jewish author that really hits on a lot of the nuances of the Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur period. The allusions are striking. Your analysis is spot on.

Spot on, George. I concur totally. Thanks! Really liked the story about the wolf hunters. Great analogy.

Well, believers may make up the church, but that doesn't mean that what God established from the beginning of the world is irrelevant. Sure there are typologies and such. But one thing God said when He established the feast days in Leviticus 23 is that they are Moedim, or appointed times, and Miqra, or rehearsals. We saw the fulfillment of the 4 spring feasts in Yeshua's first coming. The fall feasts are next in the lineup, with Rosh Hashanah the next feast day. Given tbat Yom Teruah or Feast of Trumpets has a traditional basis in separation of the righteous and seems to be what Paul was referring to when he said "in the twinkling of an eye" and "at the last trump", I tend to think that Rosh Hashanah is a kaleidoscope of colorful meaning that is significant. I have pretty much been in the camp that it will be the feast associated with the removal of the righteous. What year, that is up for speculation. I sure wouldn't complain if it is this year!

Yeah, I didn't mention that in my post. Great come back!

Yeah, that could be a possibility. I tend to side with the last shofar of Rosh Hashanah.

Might have missed it about the U.S. solar eclipse in another post, but I found it eye opening that it happened just before Elul 1 on the Hebrew calendar, which is the start of the season of Teshuvah, or repentance. 40 days prior to Yom Kippur. Some of the folks that are using Stellarium and other astronomical programs have found that the time that Jonah warned the people Ninevah to repent or destruction would come upon them, a full solar eclipse occurred in Ninevah on the same Jewish calendar date as the U.S. one, with Jonah delivering the message to Ninevah on Elul 1, the start of season of repentance. 2017 is indeed an interesting year. 120 years ago, 1897, the first Zionist congress to work on establishing a homeland for the Jews was convened. 1917, 100 years ago, the Balfour declaration issued by Britain allowing Jews to return to the land. 1947, 70 years ago, UN 181 partitioning off the Jewish homeland of Israel, officially declared a nation the following year. 1967, 50 years ago, Israel reclaims all of Jerusalem in the 6 day war. Scripturally, that would make 2017 a Juiblee year. There were 4 blood moons (total lunar eclipse) in 2014-15. One each on Passover and Feast of Tabernacles over Israel for 2 consecutive years. A stellar convergence is set to occur at the end of Rosh Hashanah this year, Sept 23rd, that has striking similarity to the great sign of Revelation 12. Those that have worked out how this all transpires, say that it is a stellar occurrence that hasn't happened since, maybe, 3915 BC, which would make the last one roughly the time of Adam and Eve era. Others have calculated and determined that this 2017 convergence hasn't happened in over 6000 years. And a lot of other interesting match ups that make 2017 definitely a eye opening year. Add in Hurricane Harvey and Irma which is building up in the Atlantic now. Sure seems something is on the horizon that may be pretty significant. Maybe more than just Hurricanes and regional peace agreements.

You are most correct! It is called the day that no man knows for exactly that reason. Rosh Hashanah / Day of Trumpets / Yom Teruah is the only one of the Leviticus 23 feasts that falls on the first of the month. And that cannot be determined until the new moon has been established by a minimum of two authorized witnesses. And Rosh Hashanah is a two day Moed (appointed time) as well.

Might have missed something like this in all the posts, but New Age UFO types have gone to great lengths to postulate a position that dismisses a rapture. They explain a mass disappearance as a UFO evacuation that removes those not in proper vibration with the earth so that the earth can move on to a new dimensional existence. And they even include a removal or all the children, since they cannot handle the massive earth changes that will occur. This video shows quotes from many of these New Age / UFO writers. One thing interesting.... they explain away only a pre-trib rapture and not mid or post trib version. Interesting.

Since you buried your comments inside of my text, that is Ok. We will disagree. I really am not worried in the least that you don't agree with me. I will not agree with you, so we are equal. As far as being buried in Jewish tradition, Yeshua himself set the standard. He observed Hannukah, which is not in the cannon that we have except for the reference of Him observing it. Evidently the Lion of the Tribe of Judah felt that some traditions are valid. I have no problem viewing the ones that are in the cannon the same way. Jude, one of the brothers of Yeshua quoted from non-canonical books in his short letter. Even Peter did likewise. So given the standard of the Messiah and those writers, I feel in good company.

Really. then explain this from Him.... Matthew 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, Yeshua didn't give this information to Joel or Paul. He gave it to John. And He gave it after He had been given it by the Father. By default, the Father didn't give it to Joel or Paul either. The Father reveals these things thru the Son. And John got this information in around 90 AD. There is no way that Joel or Paul was referencing the 7 trumpets of Revelation. Come on, you are hurting yourself in arguing this way. You are exhibiting poor reading comprehension. My hope is all that is going on. I hope it isn't dishonesty or being contentious. And Joel wasn't talking about the 7 trumpets of Revelation, nor the trumpet that Paul mentioned that was what was being referenced in my post. The trumpet in Zion that Joel is referencing is Yom Kippur. In Joel's case, the great trumpet that is associated with that feast, which is the culmination of the Day of The Lord, whereas Paul is referencing the last trump of the Feast of Trumpets. Read the entire chapter of Joel. The 30 days before Rosh Hashanah are called the Days of Return and Repentance. Joel is doing the same thing I am.... tying the fall feasts together with the Day of the Lord as I did. Thanks for posting! Notice this portion of Joel 2..... Joel 2:16-17 (NKJV) Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room. 17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord, Weep between the porch and the altar; This highlighted portion is Yeshua returning with His bride, the Church. The bride had entered her chambers at Rosh Hashanah previously, as reverenced in Isaiah 26:19-21. The portion after that about the priests is a strong reference to Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement which is also a major fast day. Isaiah references Rosh Hashanah, the feast day of resurrection and gathering of the righteous before the Day of the Lord.... Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain While Yeshua is indeed the 2nd person of the Triune God, there are some things that are reserved to the Father and not given to the son to know till the Father wants it known by Him. The two verses at the top of this post make that case.

But we are to stay observant and in anticipation of Messiah's return, and we are to know the seasons. No one is picking days or years in this discussion. The closest I came to that is mentioning fulfilling a future feast appointment. Yeshua held those accountable for knowing the day when He was here. Daniel had made it clear that 69 weeks of years from the time of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the messiah's entry into Jerusalem. But they failed to see it. Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” Leviticus 23 outlines the appointed feasts days. In the Hebrew text, they are called sacred appointments and rehearsals. They are rehearsals for the fulfillment by the the Messiah. He fulfilled Passover, Unleavended Bread, First Fruits, and Shavuot (Pentacost) already. The fall festivals remain..... Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles. Both Yeshua and Paul used terminology in their dissertations on end times events that is associated with Rosh Hashanah, or Feast of Trumpets. Your quote from Matthew 24:36 is a veiled reference to Rosh Hashanah. Paul likewise in 1 Corinthians 15:52, was clearly using terminology associated with Rosh Hashanah. Since that is the next festival on the hit parade, it might be wise to observe the signs of it's approaching. And it is the one feast that no one can determine the actual day or hour of it's beginning. All of the other feasts fall on schedules based on other feasts or in the middle of the month. Trumpets falls on the first of the month of Tishri. That cannot be determined when it starts until the new moon is confirmed and certified. So no one can know the day or the hour. Besides, there is a reward for those that are looking for His coming. My guess is that those who dismiss all of this as a waste of time, then He might feel it is a waste of time to hand out rewards to those. Some might not consider it a neat deal, but It would be cool to have the Messiah reward me for diligently seeking His coming and being watchful. 2 Timothy 4:8 (ISV) The victor’s crown of righteousness is now waiting for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on the day that he comes, and not only to me but also to all who eagerly wait for his appearing. The 30 days before Rosh Hashanah each year are called the Season of Teshuvah... the time of return and repentance. That is always a good idea to take a look at one's life and make sure they are cleansed of all unrighteousness during this time. we are in that time right now. Will this Rosh Hashanah be the one? Just like Yeshua said.... Only the Father knows.

Ok... I'll break down the Revelation 12 is talking about the removal of the righteous, and at the beginning of the tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble / Daniel's 70th week. The passage has a dual application.... Mary and Yeshua and Herod.... and Israel, the church, and Satan. The first singular. The second collective. In verse 5, the child is "caught up" and that is the Greek "harpazo" which is a deliberate, forceful, snatching up. There is no way the Messiah was snatched up to God and the throne when He was born. And even His ascension didn't qualify. So that only can mean the "body of Messiah" the church. But it says the the child will rule with a rod of iron, and that will be a combined deal.. Messiah and the church. Revelation 2:26-27. And the child is caught up as soon as it is born. And the child is born as soon as the woman goes into labor. The Church was not born at Pentacost, it was conceived by the Holy Spirit when the tongues of fire came down upon those in the upper room. And the church has been growing ever since... being nutured by the Holy Spirit until it is time to be delivered. Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. 8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children. Some think this applies to Israel becoming a nation again. Possible dual application, but I don't agree. Peter calls the church a holy nation in 1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; And we compare the Isaiah passage with..... Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord: ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. So this labor of Israel is clearly referenced as at the beginning of the Time of Jacob's trouble / 70th week of Daniel / Great Tribulation. Satan is totally bent out of shape that he was not able to consume the child (church) so he then goes after the woman. The main reason for that is the requirement that Israel acknowledge collectively their offense of rejecting Messiah, and cry out for His return. If Satan can destroy Israel, then that requirement cannot be fulfilled and the Messiah return...... Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 (NKJV) I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” Chapter 6 1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” And when with the removal of the righteous happen? At a future Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets. This Moed is the only one that falls on the first of a month. There is no way to ascertain the start time until the new moon has been confirmed. And it is also a two day Moed. This is why it is called the "day that no man knows". No man can know the day or the hour of it's beginning or the last trump that closes the Moed. It is also the day of the awakening blast, or Yom Teruah, which alludes to the resurrection. The 30 days of Elul prior to Rosh Hashanah are called the Days of Return and Days of Repentance. And Paul referenced this Moed in... 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. The twinkling of an eye is when the last trump of the Moed is blown. it is a long lasting blast. The twinkling on an eye is a reference to the last sliver of sun still visible at the end of the second day of the Moed. The Last Trump is blown at this time. This Moed has the gathering and removal of the righteous, both dead and alive, in view. it is also the Moed that calls for the Messiah to claim His bride. These traditions of the Moed were established long before Yeshua's first coming. Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets is a two day Moed, Tishri 1 & 2. Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement is on the 10th of the month. There are 7 days in between called the Days of Awe, that correspond to the 70th week of Daniel. God has thus far been a real stickler for following the festivals, right down to the day they occur.. After all, He called them in Leviticus 23, Moed or appointed times, and Miqra or rehearsals. Only the fall festivals remain. And of those, Rosh Hashanah / Trumpets is the next one in the lineup. As a side note... Paul referencing the Last Trump could not have been the 7th trumpet of Revelation. That information hadn't been given Yeshua yet, let alone Paul. How do I know that.... Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, Yeshua got the information from the Father. He gave it to John to deliver to us. That is generally acknowledged to be in the 90's of the first century. Paul was killed around the 60's. So there is no way he could have known about the 7 trumpets or be alluding to them.

That has been the general consensus... after the KJV came on the scene and later translators. But most english bibles before the KJV translated apostasia as "the departure", "a departure", or simply "departure". Geneva Bible, Wycliff Bible, etc. The Latin Vulgate uses the word discessio, which also means departure. For apostasia to legitimately be translated as falling away, there has to be definite article in the context that shows what is being fallen away from. Like here.... Acts 21:21 (NKJV) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. the Greek word "forsake" is translated from is apostasia. and the definite article is Moses (the Law). In this context, apostasia is rightfully translated as falling away or departing from the Law. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it stands all alone and can only be simply "departure".

I have contended several times that more than likely, we all have egg on our face regarding these things. I would not be surprised that we all have some aspects of these things wrong. But if we can discuss them like brothers and work thru some of the minutia, we might actually get closer to the truth. I know I have not held a static position on these things. I have had to re-evaluate my position several times on various issues. No one has an exclusive on the truth but God.

My main focus is not on September 23rd. I just mentioned it as compelling to look at. Actually, my main focus is on the perception of who the child is in Revelation 12. I glossed over it and assumed like most folks that it was in reference to the Messiah and His first coming. But that doesn't seem to make sense as I look at it more closely. The child is snatched up forcibly as soon as it is delivered. Now that really can't be perceived as the Messiah and His first coming. It is true, that it is a reference to the Messiah, but not Yeshua specifically, but His body, which the church is called in many other passages. It does say in that passage that He will rule with a rod of iron, and that sure must mean the Messiah, so not the body, correct? Then what of Revelation 2:26-27 where he who overcomes will be granted the right to rule over the nations along with Yeshua and quotes Psalm 2:9? That supports the idea that the child is the body of the Messiah. We have been told we will be as kings and priests and rule with Him in Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10, and Revelation 20:6. As I have stated elsewhere, I am still in research mode regarding this idea. It is compelling, but I need to dig into it more and compare with the rest of scripture. I am following the guidance of Proverbs 18:13 and the example of the Bereans in Acts 17:11. A methodology I find lacking in many folks on the forums. I have been guilty of not adhering to that prescription also, but even a cabbage ripens. And you bet I would be willing to die because of my faith in Yeshua! I could then be done with this sinking ship of a planet. Like Paul, I would much rather be with the Lord than remain in this carcass. But there is still a lot of work to do. And it is only that which reminds me that staying here longer is needed. But boy, if some terrorist wants to off my head because I am a Christian, I am more than ready!

Not so sure. For one, the child born of the woman in Revelation 12 is forcibly snatched up as soon as it is born. Now it is a bit of a stretch to assume that is the Messiah, as He was not forcibly snatched up at His birth or His ascension. This is one of those passages that uses the Greek word Harpazo. Compare it to Isaiah 66:7-9. Jerusalem is called a virgin in many passages of scripture. Where was the church conceived by the given of the HS? In Jerusalem. The the new creation grows until it is to be born. And it is born before Israel goes into her labor pains, as told in the Isaiah passage above. Jeremiah 30:5-9 makes reference to the Tribulation Period as Israel in labor. As I stated, I am not in the camp of this assertion, but it does make a compelling case worthy to be considered. I didn't miss any point. Up until recently, I held the same general view that Revelation 12 was referring to the Messiah's first coming. I never had really looked at it closely. You are assuming that I have bought this idea already. I am in research mode. I said I am still investigating it. As I am doing, you might also consider Proverbs 18:13.

So Israel (Jacob) is going to give birth in the middle of Jacob's Trouble? That is a new twist on the text I haven't heard before.

I only recently became interested in this topic by seeing some stuff from a few guys. One was Scott Clarke, who probably did the most detailed breakdown of the astronomical alignment details of any of them. Clarke, along with Casper McCleod, Trey Smith, and others have stuff along this line up on YouTube. I think Clarke's stuff is worth looking at. Not sure I buy the package about it, but it is fascinating.

How so? Everything I had seen says that the line up of the moon, sun, stars for the 23 Sept 2017 thing hasn't happened since a few years BC. Now I am no astronomer, and don't play one on TV, but this lineup, this precise, and the moon at the feet of Virgo with Mercury, Mars, and Venus lined up to complete the 12 stars view of the constellation of Leo above Virgo's head has not happened in any year AD until this September. Does it foretell anything? Have no clue. I am still checking out the research and analysis done by folks that are talking about this stuff to see how much validity there is in the idea. While I am not sold on the idea yet, it is still fascinating. Proverbs 18:13 (NKJV) He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him.

You are kidding, right? Very few metal coffins of fallen soldiers, did the families actually view the body, or rather, pieces of the body left after being hit by an RPG or burned beyond recognition in a personnel carrier that struck a mine. Those corpses could have easily been cremated and placed in a coffin and returned. It was bad enough to have to pick up the pieces of these individuals where they died, it is irrational to assert that several weeks later, the family is viewing those actual remains. It was the flag draped coffin that the family saw and that offered solace to the family, not the actual body. In some cases, all that was in that coffin was a foot, an arm, or the head. All that was left of the individual after being killed on the battlefield and placed in a bag. Embalming was rarely done. The bag and tag were placed in the metal coffin and sealed. Viet Nam was my time in uniform. Yes, there were military facilities in Quam and Hawaii that did embalming, even some facilities in country. But most coffins went from VN straight to the continental U.S. Very few in Graves Registration did anything related to embalming. Mostly just confirmation of the identity of the individual and processing of paperwork and coffin for transport. I will concede that the funeral home industry has gotten local and state governments in their pocket and make it so the regulatory climate is such that funeral services have become cash cow for many. And it has restricted the people's ability to deal with their dead in a way that is simple and cost effective. There are many who live in rural areas, that burying their dead family members on family property would be viable. We did it that way for much of the history of the nation. But that is not a option due to statutes in many areas. And all the requirements imposed on people for burying their dead where it is allowed. Vaults must be used for instance, inflating the cost of a funeral. By the time it is all done, it is not uncommon for a typical funeral cost to rival the purchase of a compact car. Especially so if the body is transported across state lines. At least the wife and I already have purchased plots in a small, rural cemetery at a very low cost and we have standing directives that cremation be done almost immediately. No embalming, no family viewing, etc. Just straight to the barbecue pit, or as soon as possible after an autopsy if that is required by government.

By stating a waste of time, the meaning was in concert with the rest of the post.... one ends up the same way, either way. The only difference is time and money. I have a standing order that once I die, I go straight to cremation. Only if an autopsy is needed to interrupt that. No fancy stuff. Personally, the way I would prefer would be the best in terms of cost and simplicity, but is not allowed as a viable option thanks to government regulatory nonsense in favor of morticians. I live rural. Just call the neighbor and have him bring his backhoe over to the property. Dig a hole on the back side of the property, wrap me in a blanket and roll me in. Fill back in and all is done. Cost? $50 of backhoe time. Irreverent? Not really. I am not there anyway. Just a body that I used to be in.