OldCoot

I never called them "fathers". Norm Geisler might have, but I called them "early church writers".

Indeed. As are we along side Him.... Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'— as I also have received from My Father;

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner! Peter said that we are a royal priesthood. That would be kings a priests of Revelation 5.

But that is after the 1000 years and the new earth and new heaven of Revelation 21. That does not comport with the Isaiah 26 and John 14, which specifically states the mansions/rooms/chambers/abodes are in the Father's house. For any matter to be established according to Torah and as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17, the testimony of both the OT and NT must be in uniformity. You will have to provide ample evidence from both the NT and OT that the mansions/rooms/abodes/ etc refer only to the New Jerusalem.

Nope. I equate the birth pains as either preceding or the beginning of the 70th week / tribulation period. The scripture is pretty clear on what constitutes the birth pains. And as weather phenomena, seismic activity, and the numbers of active wars across the planet seem to be increasing, it would seem that the birth pains are pretty much in view. Also, Daniel lays out that the 70th week, like the previous 69, has its focus on his people, the Hebrews. Matthew 24, likewise, has its focus on the land of Israel, hence the Hebrews. Likewise, Jeremiah 30 has its focus as Jacob (Israel), the Hebrews. So applying these passages world wide, and even to the redeemed, is not warranted. Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Church's Trouble. Yes, I do equate the entire period of the tribulation / 70th week as the time of the wrath. For one, the scroll which Yeshua is handed is written on both sides. That is typical of a deed in the 1st century. He is the only one found worthy to lay claim to the earth, and opening those seals is His taking back the claim to the earth. When He was "tempted" by Satan, one of those was the offer of giving all the nations to Him if He would worship Satan. Well, one cannot offer what one does not have, and Yeshua never disputed Satan's claim to owning the title deed to the earth. The title deed was lost by Adam and Satan now owns the earth. None of what happens on the earth as described in those seals can happen until those seals are opened, and they are opened by Him. Ergo, all the events are at and under His control. He is the first cause. So they all fall under what could be called "wrath". And it is the final realization of that fact that these events are part of that, which leads those on the earth to proclaim that the wrath of the Lamb has come.

I don't. Since Yeshua seems to make it pretty clear that the mansions/chambers/rooms etc are being prepared at the Father's house.... John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And Isaiah 26, which prefaces itself as at the beginning of the birth pains as mentioned by Jeremiah... Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? 7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child Is in pain and cries out in her pangs, When she draws near the time of her delivery, So have we been in Your sight, O Lord. And it is the same context that Isaiah says the righteous are hidden, in accordance with Zephaniah.... Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger. Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain. So no, I don't concur with your assessment that these mansions/chambers/rooms etc are part of the New Jerusalem after the Millenium. One would have to present a lot of sciptural support for that to outweigh the above references. Well, I suppose one could argue that these mansions/chambers/rooms could be the New Jerusalem as it sits in Heaven, but not as you assert after it has come to the earth. Especially since the saints who are there return with the Lord when He comes to establish the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom. Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." And that judgment mentioned is the judgement of both Israel (Ezekiel 20:37-38) and the nations (Joel 3:2, Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the Tribulation Period, at the point where the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom starts.

Nice work, but I will keep mine simpler. Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. And many early church writers who were far closer to the event that we are, some who knew the Apostles and were in a better position to get first hand testimony of what really happened, seem to think that these saints of Matthew 27 were resurrected in the same manner as those in the future will be resurrected... as free from death again, immortal. It comports with the pattern established with Leviticus 23 harvest. Dr. Norman Geisler did a substantive treatise on the subject and outlined many of the early writers comments on this. http://normangeisler.com/the-early-fathers-and-the-resurrection-of-the-saints-in-matthew-27/ So while it may be fun to break down the words and try to imply something from a subjective meaning of each word, there is no indication from the text that these resurrected "saints" were to die again as in the case of Lazarus or Jairus' daughter. So all we can do is rely on what the early writers had to say on the issue since they were far closer to the event than we are. To assume different one has no evidential support. That these resurrected saints went into the city and presented themselves to others as confirmation, it is more likely that they were saints who had died in the recent years and would be known to those that saw them. So applying the text of Acts 2:29 in implying that none of the OT saints were resurrected to eternal life has little actual support. And we must also look at the account of when Yeshua arose. When He confronted Mary early that morning near the tomb, He told her not to touch or handle him as He had yet ascended to the Father. We know that later that evening, the disciples did touch Him as He told them to. Yet the ascension of Acts 1 was to occur many days later. What happened at the morning resurrection was in keeping with Leviticus 23. As now our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to present the first fruits of the harvest to the Father, hence His instruction to Mary to not touch Him. After accomplishing the task of presenting the first fruits of the harvest of the redeemed, it would then be ok to touch Him, as they did later when He appeared to the disciples.

Well, you missed the other two. I gave the scripture references.

At least 4 resurrections. The first happened in Matthew 27. There will be another in Revelation 11. A third one in Revelation 20. And the one I have tickets for is the one prior to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble as per Isaiah 26 and Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians.

I see there are some who don’t have a good grasp on ecclesiology.

So you did a cut and paste and just reiterated what you said earlier. Nice. But repeating something twice does not lend more support. Unless you are following the Joseph Goebbels methodology that if one takes a falsehood and repeats it often enough that eventually it becomes the perceived truth. Which seems to be the case here. So I would concur..... I am not interested.

If one takes Ezekiel 38 by itself, they might be able to shoe horn it into the time frame of the end of the 1000 years. but context is everything, and Ezekiel 39 is a continuation, talking about the same event and there is a lot there that cannot legitimately be tied into the 1000 years period, especially Ezekiel 39:21 onward. So it has to be pre Messianic Kingdom. And at present, the Lord is not the physical defense of Israel today in the way you are trying to assert. And one cannot tie in Ezekiel 38 and 39 together into the 1000 years without offering some very substantive supporting text from both NT and OT, or using some sort of gymnastics in their scripture exegesis and allegorizing things to an extreme. There is no evidence that Ezekiel 38-39 the Lord is already physically ruling from Zion as is the period of the 1000 years. But in Psalms 2 which does have the rebellion at the end of the 1000 years in mind, does show that Yeshua has been established and set King over Zion when the nations imagine a vain thing and wish to throw off the rule of Messiah over them. And that does tie in to Satan being able to deceive the nations at the end of the 1000 years to rebel. So I don't accept the assertion trying to be made that Ezekiel 38-39 is talking about the end of the Messianic Kingdom 1000 years.

Well it sounds interesting but I don't see the allegory of the passage as you do.

The walls are border walls. Not village walls. So by your analogy, because we put up a border wall along the Mexican border, there is a border wall when I go to Des Moines Iowa. Funny, was just up there today and didn't see a wall. keep in mind the culture and timing of that prophecy. In ancient times, many cities had walls and gates to protect themselves from marauders. To a person living 2700 years ago, to see Israel today would seem very much like a bunch of unwalled villages.

No it does not. The writer is promoting the idea that they reach the goal of the works and diligence and imitate those who thru faith and patience inherit the promises. If one takes Hebrews as talking of believers, they have a conundrum in Hebrews 6 also..... Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. To apply it to believers means that if a believer falls away, they can never be restored. That goes against everything in scripture. Just like Yeshua "tasted" of the sour wine and gall (Matthew 27:34) but did not take it in, the passage is talking about being enlightened and tasting of the Holy Spirit, but not taking in the HS. The believer has taken in the HS and is sealed. Obviously these folks were not. And it is impossible, if they reject the knowledge of Yeshua that the writer has been showing in the previous chapters, that there is another way of salvation.

I would disagree. The Gog / Magog thing of Ezekiel 38 is localized involving a specific set of nations before Yeshua is ruling on the earth. The rebellion of Revelation 20 when Satan is released is world wide involving all the nations at the time Yeshua is ruling on the earth. In the Ezekiel account, specific countries / entities are listed as who is coming against the land. In the Revelation 20 there is not a specific list of countries / entities and ties more into Psalms 2 where the Lord has placed Messiah in the land to rule and the nations are wanting to throw that band of rule off of themselves.

Be careful lest you find you fit into this verse.... 2 Peter 3:3-4 (NKJV) knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." That could well speak to those who would ridicule and make fun of the idea that the righteous that make up the church of Messiah are removed at the point before the Time of Jacob's Trouble begins. Notice that Jeremiah 30 says it is the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Chruch's trouble. And there are differing saints. OT saints, church saints, tribulation saints. Yeshua even set some of that delineation in.... Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Operative, being "I will build". That is future tense so it relegates the saints that came before Acts 2 as OT saints, not of the church. Redeemed yes, but not the church proper which is also called the body of Messiah and also the bride of Messiah. The parable of the pearl (Matthew 13) is a good illustration of the Church as it is today. A pearl is from an oyster, which is non kosher. The church is primarily of a gentile construct today, i.e. non kosher. A pearl is created in the oyster as a response to irritation, the church grows as a response to irritation and persecution in the world. The pearl, like the church, grows by accretion, and then then it is removed and placed as an item of adornment. Much as the church / bride of Messiah is removed and becomes an item of adornment. And Messiah paid the high price to purchase that pearl with His own blood. That also ties into the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual which is a great study. Yeshua was fond of alluding to the Hebrew marriage. When a potential groom would come to take a bride, they would agree to the covenant between them and a cup of wine would be shared. Yeshua did that at the last supper. Then the groom would pay the dowry or price for his bride. Yeshua did that at the cross. Then the groom would go back to his home to begin preparation of the wedding chamber. Yeshua said He would be doing that in John 14. The groom in not allowed to go retrieve his bride until his father approved of the wedding chamber. So a potential groom, when asked when the marriage would be consummated, he would respond "only my father knows". Yeshua said the same in several passages that only the Father knows the time. When it came time, the groom went to gather his bride. He would not enter her house, but call for her to come out to Him. Paul stated as much in 1 Thessalonians 4. The groom and bride would return to the wedding chamber and remain there for 7 days / one week (Daniel 9 comes to mind), consummating the marriage. At the end of the 7 days, they would return and the wedding feast would begin. The 7 day period would allow those who were invited to wedding feast to make ready. You can find a lot of info from some very good Jewish and Messianic scholars on the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual that supports this view.

I keep things simple. Hebrews was written to Hebrews. Just like James was written to the 12 tribes in the diaspora. When one keeps who the target audience is in view, then usually they don't get things mixed up. The first 6 chapters are pure apologetic, making the case that Messiah is better than Moses, Aaron, the priesthood, Angels, Temple, etc. In Chapter 6, the writer shows that once one is enlightened to the fact that Yeshua is the Promised Messiah, there remains no other means of salvation. If they turn away from the knowledge of Messiah, it is all she wrote, so to speak. There is nothing else that can save. If these were believers, then it wouldn't make sense that the writer would spend the first 6 chapters making the case that Yeshua is greater than everything that came before. If they were believers already, they would already know that. I am convinced that based on the outline of the book, it was written by Paul. He kept his name out of it because of the bad rap he had been given by the Jewish leadership in both Israel and the diaspora. He had a burning desire to tell his Hebrew brethren of their promised Messiah, as evidenced in Romans and other books. But to keep from generating bias in the readers, he kept his name out of the book. And a common theme in Jewish eschatology was that the 7 days of creation equated to the 7000 year plan of God. "these last days" would pertain to the last two days before the 7th. The first 2 days were equated with Adam to Abraham, days of ignorance - without Torah. The next 2 days with the time of Torah or instruction. The third 2 days were associated with the days of the Messiah. And we see that right out of the gate in the book of Hebrews. The writer associates the "last days" with the days of Messiah. We see these delineations explicitly pronounced in Essene writings of the Qumran community also.

Well, it really all comes down to a problem of ecclesiology as opposed to eschatology. A clear understanding of what and who the church as established in Acts 2 and its destiny. Once one gets a clear handle on that, usually the eschatology is easy. And one thing that does seem clear is that the 24 Elders are at the throne room area before the scroll is handed to Yeshua and the first seal broke open. In Revelation 5, They call themselves Kings and Priests redeemed of all the nations. Peter is quite clear that we are a royal priesthood.... royalty is kingship (1 Peter 2:9). And the only division of 24 was in 1 Chronicles 24, where David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions. And since prophecy is as much pattern as it is prediction, and that the 404 verses of Revelation have over 500 references to the OT alone, it is reasonable to assert that the 24 Elders are the redeemed of the church that have been removed and are present at the time the scroll is handed to Yeshua. Even with that, Isaiah 26 puts the context of its passage as talking about the time of the birth pains (Isaiah 26:17) which is a reference to Jeremiah 30:6-7 which is the period of Jacob's Trouble which most agree is the tribulation period, as did Yeshua in Matthew 24:21. And Isaiah 26:19-21 says that the righteous dead are resurrected and along with the living righteous are hidden away in their chambers (see John 14) before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. Another key tie in is Isaiah 26:2 with Revelation 4:1 where a gate / door is open so that the righteous nation may enter. Again Peter calls us a holy / righteous nation in 1 Peter 2:9. Anyway, for any matter to be established, there has to be the testimony of at least 2 witnesses according to the Torah. And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is applied. They took what Paul taught them (which became a major portion of the NT) and searched the scripture (OT) to see if what Paul taught them was true. They were commended for doing so. Thus, for any matter to be established, it must have supporting testimony from OT and NT. Not the NT alone. And the above paragraphs show the OT/NT connection.

Well, it is true that the scripture uses many forms of rhetorical devices, with allegory being one of them. But unless it is clearly an allegory, like the following, it is not wise to default to an allegorical interpretation.... Ruth 2:12 (NKJV) The Lord repay your work, and a full reward be given you by the Lord God of Israel, under whose wings you have come for refuge." The Lord is not one who has feathers. So the "wings" is allegorical. But in most cases, if the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one ends up with nonsense. And Revelation, for instance, is 404 verses with over 500 references to the OT alone. What may appear to be allegorical may in fact be defined earlier in scripture. I would contend the opposite, that not taking the scripture literal enough is what leads to much confusion. If one defaults to allegorical methodology, it then becomes too subjective. Oh, if you were to talk to many Jewish theologians, the "wings" of the passage above has a meaning of the tzitzit of the prayer shawl. Those fringes or tzitzit on the prayer shawl are sometimes referenced as "wings". And that would fit the passage from Ruth quite well.

I am not convinced it is Russian military forces as such as it is Russia as the main supplier to the Turkish, Persian, and N.E. African forces that come against Israel. Ezekiel 38:7 seems to imply that Gog is more about being the supplier and facilitator, or "guard" (mismar - samar), of the coalition that comes against Israel. One thing is for certain, 1/3rd of the Russian economy is based on natural gas and petroleum export sales to western Europe. Israel has the newly discovered Leviathan gas and oil field in the Mediterranean. Supposedly, enough NG to last for 1500 years. One of the biggest finds in modern history. Israel has just completed the agreement that would supply Greece and Cyprus with NG. The agreement with the Italians is due in May. And once the NG starts flowing that way, it will also get into Western Europe. Just the initial deal is projected to eat into Russia's exports of NG to Europe by about 10%, and as it spreads out, will eat more into the Russian economic base. And Israel plans to sell at a lower cost than Russia has been bleeding Europe for. It also means that Russia/Putin will lose quite a bit of leverage in making Europe play their game. I have seen wars start for less reason than all this. I highly doubt Putin and Russia are going to just sit idly by and let this all transpire without throwing a fit. And since the coalition nations that come against Israel are already in place and being armed by Russia, it is just a matter of time before the fuse is lit.

When I see Putin and Russia really ramping up, then I will know Ezekiel 38 is coming to life. All the other players are in place. And it would seem that the latest agreement by Israel to provide natural gas to Europe, starting with Greece and Cyprus with Italy agreement coming soon, at substantially reduced prices than Russia has been bleeding Europe for will be just the catalyst to get Russia moving. Israel's Leviathan petroleum field has enough NG estimate to provide for 1500 years. 1/3 of Russia's economy has been based on NG and Petroleum sales to Europe. Putin is not going to sit idly by and do nothing. Turkey is even having a bit of a fit over the Isreali agreements to supply NG. It is getting tough to stay on top of this stuff. Things are moving rapid fire. It amazes me how so many cannot see what it going on right in front of them.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand) uh... Right.

I think that is the direction things are headed.

And according the Nachmanides analysis of Genesis in the 13th century and after us spending billions of dollars on particle colliders and such, we know there are actually 10 dimensions. And the Lord has to be several dimensions more than that at least.