Steve Conley

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, you are dreaming when you say that the pre-trib system was taught before Darby. There are only a handful of historic (pre-Darby) statements that can even be construed to be consistent with the pretribulational system. These are easily shown to not support pretribulationism when all that the writers believed is considered. Pre-tribbers fail to present the whole context of the few historic statements that they misconstrue to support that bankrupt eschatological model. Concerning the revisionist change in the meaning of the word apostasia, it has always indicated a religious or political departure. There isn't a single use of it in the physical departure sense in all of Koine Greek literature. Just because it was and can be translated departure doesn't mean that it ever indicated the rapture. In fact, any eighth grader can see that to make apostasia our gathering together unto Christ makes Paul's statement incoherent. You have Him saying: "the rapture will not come until the rapture comes and the man of sin is revealed". Out of time. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, so, you are saying that it was Darby and those pre-tribbers that came after him that Newton was referring to. Interesting. The way I see it is that Darby and those early pretribulational dispensationalists that came after him, tried to take the professing church out of the allegorical interpretation ditch, only to end up in a similar ditch on the other side of the road. A literal hermeneutic is the right way to approach the Holy Scriptures. The Augustinian method of interpretation allowed nearly anything to be read into the text. However, I've found that pretribulationists are very good at reading their eschatological system into the text of the Holy Scriptures. They start with the misunderstood truth that the church is not appointed unto wrath. Indeed the church, or any of Christ's own, are not appointed unto God's wrath. But that is not an exemption from the persecution of the world upon the saints. Jesus said, as was prophesied, that there would be a period of unprecedented persecution upon His own just prior to His coming. Pretribulationists have wrongly interpreted that unparalleled persecution to be part of God's eschatological wrath, the wrath that we are not appointed unto. To the pretribulationist, this misunderstanding became the "primary truth" that stood above all the other statements of Scripture and the "truth" to which every other text must bow. If another passage contradicted that understanding it would be wrested from its intended meaning through various means. It may be taken to apply to "another elect" other than the church. Or the historic meaning of a word or phrase would be changed to conform the text to the pre-trib system, such as the sudden redefining of the word apostasia to mean rapture. Just as men like Charles Spurgeon, Samuel Tregeles, and George Muller rejected pretribulationism when it began to be preached in the 1800s, so also, today, many like myself who grew up in pretribulationism, are renouncing it and exposing it to be the lie that it is. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, the difference between you and those you are contending with is that they provide chapter and verse for each of their propositions. You, on the other hand, spout off with your knowledge of the pre-trib dispensational system. I know your system much better than you do. I taught it for thirty years. It is built upon assumptions, inference, eisegesis, misunderstandings, and circular reasoning. Your system is not Scripture. It has no authority. That means that you have no Biblical basis for what you say. You, sir, are contending with the very God that you claim to worship. Jesus said, in vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Your beliefs concerning these things are in opposition to the words of Christ, the apostles, and the prophets. On top of that, your foolish statements only serve to put on display your own ignorance and immaturity. If you would begin to provide support for each of your propositions by referencing explicit statements from the Holy Scriptures, you will find that what you have believed is a house of cards. Jesus said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The subjects in context are believers in the "church age". They are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord. Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming. In Matt 24 Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation. According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution. The cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord takes place, then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see. Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds. Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers. Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation. So, you are in error when you say "Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period." I have just demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, you, like so many other pre-tribbers, regurgitate the same old tired misconception, trying to convince yourselves and others that the clear and obvious subject of Christ's warnings must be set aside. Christ's warnings are for His followers. They/we are His elect, His chosen. The elect that He spoke of are the same elect that includes Peter, James, John, and Andrew. It was they who asked Christ for the sign of His parousia. Peter. James, John, and Andrew were among the Apostles and Prophets who were said to be the Church's foundation, with Christ Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone. The elect in this context is the church. Jesus was speaking to the founding members of His church. It is the church that Paul addresses speaking of the very same happenings taking place before Christ's coming. Paul said that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, would come the revelation of the man of sin (that is the trigger of the very abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of) and the falling away (that is the departure from the faith of "professors" that Jesus said would be offended by the persecution for Christ's name sake and be deceived by the false Christs and false prophets)(2Thes 2:3-4). Paul also said that the elect (church) would be caught up at the "parousia" of Christ (1Thes 4:15-17). It is the "parousia" of Christ that the disciples wanted to know the sign of (Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39). The same week, it was to them (the 11), that it was said, "if I go away I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also". You don't hesitate to claim that promise, but you say the warnings Jesus gave to the very same disciples the very same week belong to a bunch of unbelieving Jews. How inconsistent. The disciples asked for the sign of the end of the age (aion) (Matt 24:3). Jesus told them that the gospel of the Kingdom would be preached in all the world before the end comes. Then, not even two months later, Jesus having risen from the dead, told them that He would be with them in the making of disciples and in the teaching of all His commandments until the end of the age (aion) (Matt 28:19-20). Jesus also, before, said that the harvest of the Children of the Kingdom will be reaped by the angels at the end of the age. At that time the angels will also remove from Christ's kingdom all the sinners that offend. OC, concerning your statement that it is believer arrogance to equate the elect with the saved, I say it is your foolish arrogance to say that the elect is anything other than the believer. Paul specifically said: Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. He said that there was a remnant of believers among the Israelites, even though most remain in unbelief. Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Notice that he distinguishes between Israel and the remnant of believing Israelites whom he identifies as the election. It is the election who has Christ and all that is found in Him. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God made a promise to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and that promise shall be completely fulfilled in Christ. The beneficiaries of that promise shall be believing Israelites and believing Gentiles. God keeps all His promises, but it was to the true seed of Abraham that they shall come. Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. All Gentiles who believe have been graffed in among believing Israel into the promises made to the Fathers. Even as all the unbelieving Israelites have been broken off from the promises made to the Fathers (Rom 11:11-24). Just as Christ's words in Matt 24 were for the elect of Israel who followed Him, so also are they for us Gentiles who have believed upon Christ unto salvation and been made partakers of their promises. He has made of twain (Believing Jew and believing Gentile) one new man in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:11-3:12). They were first called Christians at Antioch. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, there is no other text that so defines the great tribulation as Matthew's account of the Olivet discourse. Christ begins to speak of it taking place after the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24:9. He continues to add detail all the way through verse 29. Let's take a look at the first half of Chapter 24. First, notice that this is the second longest discourse of Christ recorded in the Gospels. It takes place a few days prior to His crucifixion. Within that same period, Jesus told these same disciples (and us) "I will come again and receive you unto myself". The discourse was addressed initially to four of His disciples who were with Him on the Mount of Olives. But we know it was also intended for us the readers of Matthew's account because the Holy Spirit in verse 15 says "whoso readeth, let him understand". The four asked Him a question with three parts. "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world (aion)?" The first refers to the timing of the destruction of the Temple which took place in 70 AD. The second and third are answered together, because Christ's coming effectively ends the present world (aion = age). They asked Jesus to tell them of the sign that would portend His return, that is His parousia, His second coming. Parousia is a somewhat technical term meaning arrival and continuing presence. It is translated as “coming” and “presence”. In verse 4 Jesus begins to answer their questions. (Only Luke records Christ's answer to the first one concerning the destruction of the Temple). Let us look at what Jesus says concerning the sign of His parousia. Remember He is answering "what shall be the sign of thy coming". Therefore, what He has to say is in the context of that future day. He begins by warning that there will be deceivers in that day, and false Christs. Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. He speaks of a time of war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes that He calls the beginning of sorrows. He lets us know that these are not the end of the age. It is important to recognize that these conditions closely correspond to what John sees at the opening of the first three seals. These conditions also come before what is next. Notice the use of "then" at the beginning of verse 9. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. He goes on to say, that next, there would be violent persecution upon the followers of Jesus Christ for His name's sake. These Christians will be hated by all nations. With these words, Jesus begins to speak of the period of time at the end of the age just before His coming that He calls great tribulation. It should be noted that the Greek word from which afflicted is translated is the word thlipsis. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Because of this persecution, many will be offended, that is they will fall away or depart from the faith. Just like those who were represented by the stony ground which gladly received the Word, but were offended when persecution came along (Matt 13:20-21), so these also will fall away. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. At that time many false prophets shall contribute to the falling away by their deception. The result will be an increase in lawlessness causing the love of others to be diminished. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. However, He says that those who survive to the end of the persecution, even the end of the age, will be saved. That is they will be physically delivered (Dan 12:1) this deliverance comes at the rapture Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Then He says, the gospel shall be preached throughout the world before the end comes. It is interesting that the Great commission which was given to the founding members of the church and continues to be the responsibility of the church today, closes with these words "...lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Jesus said He would be with us in the making of disciples and in the teaching of those disciples, all things whatsoever He taught. He said he would be with us unto the end of the world (aeon). The disciples understood that His coming would inaugurate a new (aeon), the present aeon would end at that point. We continue in Gospel ministry until the second coming of Christ. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Jesus now gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the (rebuilt) temple is defiled (that is the abomination of desolation). Christ reverenced Daniel who says the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27). The abomination of desolation is caused by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) in the temple (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Many if not most of the prophetic statements of the Scriptures are focused upon or around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to find their focal point there. However, even though it is centered in Jerusalem, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide. Christ emphasizes that there should be no hesitation once the Beast is revealed, flee immediately, don't go back for your stuff. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. The word tribulation is translated from the same Greek word that is translated “afflicted” found in verse 9. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The age-old adage is, “to be forewarned is to be forearmed”. With these warnings, Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion-eating birds, and as unmistakable as the lightning which stretches across the sky. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in heaven as He comes with His holy angels. They will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WW, you have zeroed in on the mention of the four winds in three different passages of Scripture. If I understand you correctly, you are implying that it is a technical term that means more than north, south, east, and west. If the four winds is a technical term that refers to something other than the directions of the compass, and it means consistently the same thing throughout the Scriptures, then We would conclude that these winds will be held by four angels in the future. This holding either prevents the winds from blowing upon the earth, sea, and trees causing them to be hurt. Or it means that if they release the winds the earth, sea and trees will be hurt corresponding to the first four trumpet judgements. Also, it would be true that the breath that gives life comes from the four winds and that they in a future day will bring to life the whole house of Israel. Lastly, from these 3 texts, we see that at Christ's arrival the elect is gathered from these four winds. So, they can help or hurt the earth, sea, and trees, they can give life to the dead so that they are resurrected, and they are that from which the elect are gathered. But we shouldn't rely only upon these three references to inform us concerning the four winds, we should look at every reference to them. Jer 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. Dan 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those. Zec 2:4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Considering all the evidence it doesn't look like you have support for your claims. Also, the great multitude is made up primarily Gentiles, as it is said that they are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". The word "nations" is translated from ethnos which is the word most often translated Gentile. They don't look like the same group to me. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, As I said in a previous post, there are a few fundamental truths that the serious student of the Holy Scriptures must consider when adopting an eschatological model. Many of these are undeniable truths, truths which come from very explicit statements made by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles. Only those who will not see, are blind to these truths after the examination of the associated texts. Let's look at how the tenants of the Pre-Trib eschatological model measure up to these truths. Note: there are a thousand flavours of pretribulationism, so, if one or two of these are not describing your flavour, know that it doesn't apply to you but to those that believe such. So, please don't come whining to me saying "I don't believe that." 1) The day of the rescue (rapture) of the Church will be the day God's wrath unexpectedly begins to fall upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting, world. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. The typical pretribulationist believes that the day of the Lord (period of God's wrath) begins after the rapture (not necessarily on the same day), but that Christ's revelation (when He is revealed, verse 30) is described in Rev 19 and it happens at the end of the week. Pretribulationists believe the day of the Lord begins roughly seven years before Christ's revelation. This is completely contrary to the statement of Christ as recorded in Luke 17:26-30. Pretrib false tenant #1) The day of the Lord begins roughly seven years before Christ's revelation. 2) The day the church rests from persecution is the day of Christ's revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels initiating vengeance upon those who were our persecutors. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Pretribulationists believe that Christ's words to the Thessalonian Church really refer to the group they call the tribulation saints. This is true because they teach that Christ's revelation, as described in 2 Thes 1:7, doesn't happen until the end of the week when Christ is seen finishing off the Beast and His armies, as recorded in Revelation 19. So, according to their thinking, the tribulation saints do not rest from persecution until the end of the week. This also reveals that pretribulationists believe that God actually pours out His wrath upon His own faithful saints causing their deaths. They teach that the Beast is the instrument of God's wrath when he is putting the saints to death. How awful, and messed up one must be to think such a thing about the one true God and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who gave himself for us, to save us, and then pours out His wrath upon those He has saved. What a sick view of God those who think this way have. Pre-trib false tenant #2) It is another group of believers other than the church which will rest from persecution at the end of the week when Christ is revealed. Even though it isn't heralded from the rooftops the following is an essential belief of those who hold the pre-trib model for the rapture. It is essential because it is the obvious implication of thinking that the day of the Lord, that is the period of God's wrath, begins when the week begins. This makes all the persecution described in that week God's doing. They even believe that because Jesus opens the seals He is the one responsible for what comes upon the saints at the opening of the 4th and fifth seals. Pre-trib false tenant #3) God pours out His wrath upon His own in the form of the atrocities of the Beast and the False Prophet and their followers. 3) The church is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Pretribulationists, most of whom live in areas of the world where little to no persecution is experienced, believe and teach that they will not experience any of the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. This they believe is supported by Paul's comforting words to the Thessalonians: "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Many of them recognize the true context of Paul's statement to be the day of the Lord as mentioned in verse 2 of 1Thes 5. However, most of them believe that the period of unprecedented persecution, that Jesus called great tribulation, takes place within the day of the Lord as opposed to prior to it. Pre-trib false tenant #4) The church is promised to be spared all the events of the seventieth week, especially the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. 4) The watching believer will not be caught by surprise upon the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. In spite of this explicit statement, the pretribulational model is built upon the false teaching of an "any moment" rapture. They teach that Jesus will come to rapture His church unexpectedly, like a thief comes. They teach that the apostles taught that Jesus could come at any moment to gather His own to Himself. The nature of the teaching of imminency is to be caught by surprise. When one has no idea when it will take place it is true that when it happens it will be sudden or come unawares. Therefore they make Paul's words to watching believers to be a lie, because he said the day will not come upon us as a thief, for we are not in darkness and will not be caught suddenly or unawares at Christ's arrival on the day of the Lord. Paul said the day will not overtake us as a thief. There is no ambiguity in that statement. Pre-trib false tenant #5) Jesus comes as a thief to catch away His church. 5) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ begins and is equivalent to the day of the Lord or the day of Christ. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. In order to maintain a semblance of plausibility for their model, pretribbers must read a separation into many texts, just like they do into this one. They say the events Paul references in verse 1 are separated by 7 years. However, on many occasions, Paul or others connect the coming (parousia) of Christ with the catching up of the saints. In this text, Paul identifies the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him as the day of Christ. He tells the Thessalonians that that day, the day in which those events of verse 1 take place, is not at hand, that is not near in time. Jesus taught that His coming would be near in time when the great tribulation was taking place. Paul will tell them in verse 3 that Christ's arrival and continuing presence and our gathering to Him cannot come until the great tribulation and the results of it are seen. Paul teaches that the parousia and the rapture are two aspects of Christ's return and that they happen upon the same day. They are not separated by 7 years or any other amount of time. Pre-trib false tenant # 6) The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is separated from our gathering together unto Him by seven years. 6) The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and Peter must come prior to the day of the Lord. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Pre-tribbers have a cow when faced with the explicit statement of Joel concerning when God's wrath on the day of the Lord takes place. Joel says the day of the Lord cannot come until the cosmic sign He describes takes place. No cosmic sign, no wrath of God on the day of the Lord. I have heard so many lame explanations of this, attempts to get around the clear meaning of this text. Some have said that before means in front of or in the face of. However, Peter is quoted using the Greek word "prin" when he quoted Joel in Acts 2:20. "Prin" which is translated before, can only mean before in relation to time or sequence. It means "prior to". When Joel says before the great and terrible day of the Lord come, he means prior to the day coming. Others have said that there are many cosmic signs that take place in the last days, so we cannot be sure which one it is referring to. So, they pay no heed to the significance of this sign and forget that it even exists. Even when Jesus speaks of it in the Olivet discourse as a sign of His coming they pay no attention. They, in essence, say “nothing to see here”. Pre-trib false tenant #7) Pay no attention to the cosmic sign, “there is nothing to see there”. I'll have to finish this up later. All praise, honour, and glory to the Lamb

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, We are not on the board yet. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Down goes another false imagination of Mr. mad Praise Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, our Lord and Saviour

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Do you mean the hermeneutics that J. N. Darby invented? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to believe and teach that God pours out His wrath upon His faithful GT servants who are martyred for Christ's name sake? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you, in desperation, to teach that the Greek word apostasia refers to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to teach that Matt 24 is not written to the church, even though it explicitly concerns the elect, a name by which the church is identified throughout the NT? Do you mean the hermeneutics that forces you to wrest countless Scriptures to maintain your fictitious eschatological system? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to engage in eisegesis, reading your bankrupt system into the text? Do you mean the hermeneutics that allows you to claim that when John, in spirit, was shown the throne of God in heaven that was referring to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that deserves a gold medal for their gymnastic performance? Paul had something to say about the hermeneutics you use. 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. A literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual hermeneutic will not yield a pretribulational model for the rapture. Only eisegesis and circular reasoning will lead you to believe that way. But you are not alone, most in the West have embraced escapist pretribulational teaching. Your views will change when you see the Temple rebuilt, or witness the Beast in the Temple shewing himself to be God. If you miss all that, you will most certainly know that you were wrong when unexpectedly you are faced with the decision of taking the mark to save your physical life or being beheaded for Christ's name sake. If you take the mark, know that you will be eternally damned. Be faithful unto death and Christ will give you a crown of life. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Praise Jesus

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The most explicit reference to our going to Heaven is likely Christ's promise found in John 14:2-3. That coupled with the plethora of references concerning Christ being in heaven at this time causes us to believe that He will come again and receive us unto Himself that where He is we may be also. There is also ancillary evidence that we will be going to Heaven. Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, It is also true that the innumerable multitude spoken of in Rev 7:9-17 are the redeemed taken in the rapture, and we are seen standing before the throne of God in Heaven. Glory be to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, There are a few fundamental truths that the serious student of the Holy Scriptures must consider when adopting an eschatological model. Many of these are undeniable truths which come from very explicit statements made by Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles. 12 Fundamental Truths 1) The day of the rescue (rapture) of the Church will be the day God's wrath unexpectedly begins to fall upon the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting, world. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2) The day the church rests from persecution is the day of Christ's revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels initiating vengeance upon those who were our persecutors. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 3) The church is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 4) The watching believer will not be caught by surprise upon the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 5) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ begins and is equivalent to the day of the Lord or the day of Christ. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 6) The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and Peter must come prior to the day of the Lord. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 7) The day of the Lord can not come until after the sixth seal is opened, because it is then that John sees Joel's cosmic sign. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 8 ) The coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ is when the first resurrection and the catching up of those believers who are alive and remain takes place. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 9) The coming of Christ takes place immediately after the great tribulation. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 10) The great tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 11) The great tribulation is the unprecedented violent persecution of the elect who follow Christ. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 12) The Devil focuses his wrath upon Israel and the followers of Christ when he is cast out of Heaven in the middle of the week. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, your answer was no answer at all. Nothing you said provides any Scriptural indication of the mark of the beast being forced upon the world in the first half of the week. Let me see if I can decipher what you are presenting as proof. Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 months. v.3 One of heads of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. First 42 months, the beast who makes a 7 year agreement, is the one who sets up the A/D. He allows animal sacrifices for Israel, and he ends them. Rev 6:3 - When the Lamb opened the 2nd Seal.... Another rider came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. In order to push your false narrative, you need to move the action of verse 5 ahead of verse 3. It doesn't work that way. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. You read much into this verse from Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy. It is an assumption that the personal pronoun "he" refers to the prince that shall come. It is also an assumption that the prince that shall come is the Antichrist (man of sin, Beast, etc). This is my assumption also, however, I recognize that it is an assumption that may be correct or may not be correct. Nothing at all in the verse says that he allows Israel to have animal sacrifices. No details of the covenant are given other than that it is confirmed with many for a period of seven years. Notice the definite article is used for the covenant, it isn't just any covenant, it is the covenant. It goes on to say that he is the cause of the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings. There are no Scriptures which explicitly identify the riders on the white, red, or black horses. Any designation is nothing more than an educated guess. False, how can the man of sin appear mid week, if he is the one who makes the 7 year agreement and then is the one who sets up the A/D. Michael is not the Restrainer, and Paul does not support this theory. The man of sin isn't revealed until he comes back from the dead, having been given power by Satan, who will be cast out of heaven in the middle of the week. Glory to the Lamb

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have found that gotquestions can be a great resource for many things associated with the Scriptures. However, my past experience with gotquestions was that they were only interested in presenting eschatology from a pretribulational perspective. They had a few things to say about the pre-wrath model, but it was from people who were very deficient in their understanding of it. When contacted they didn't seem interested in correcting their errors. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, you infer that you are a Berean, that you readily receive teaching, then search the Scriptures to see whether those things are so. Let's do the same for what you have said. Your statements are presented below in red. If I may stir the pot a little here and throw this out. I am one of those "brainwashed" pre-trib folks. There is so much support from both the NT and the OT for a removal and protection of the righteous before the events of the last days. Only when one focuses primarily on only one witness (the NT) does confusion reign. The scripture requires that it takes two or more witnesses to confirm a matter. For doctrine that would be the NT and OT. If a position cannot be fully supported from both, then it cannot be a settled matter. If, as you allege, the righteous are removed before the events of the last days, then pray tell why does Jesus use the second person POV when answering the righteous disciple's questions concerning the sign of His parousia as recorded in Matt 24? If Christ's disciples will be removed before "the events of the last days", why is He providing them with those notable events which will signal that His arrival is near in time, if none of the righteous will be here to witness them? The truth is that nothing in either the OT or NT teaches what you claim. Indeed, all the righteous will not experience the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, but the church will not be exempt from the unprecedented persecution of the Beast and False Prophet. Concerning your two witnesses hermeneutic, it is not a Biblical one. The principle of two or three witnesses has to do with the testimony of fallen mankind in relation to evidence given of criminal activity. However, when it comes to the Holy Scriptures, a single explicit statement of the inerrant Word of God is all that is necessary to establish any truth. Your “two witnesses” doctrine seems to encourage a person to favor the subjective interpretation of an obscure OT text over an explicit statement of Christ or the Apostles in the NT. This type of hermeneutic is favored by those who wish to fashion the teaching of Scripture after their own ideas. It is very subjective, and in effect, not much different than the allegorical hermeneutic of Augustine, which is to be rejected entirely. Now, getting past the pre-trib removal and moving onward. I am convinced that the first few seals of Revelation 6 are an interlude between the removal of the righteous and the start of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 years. We know from Daniel 9:27 that the confirmation of a covenant is what triggers the 70th week / 7 years. No matter how convinced you are, the rapture cannot happen until the singular future coming (Parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of Christ takes place. It takes place at the beginning of the day of the Lord right after the cosmic sign which announces the end of the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). Parousia is the word used in Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39 for Christ’s coming and it is the word used in 1Thes 4:15 for Christ’s coming. Heb 9:28 says that He appears a second time, but nothing is said about a third time anywhere in all of the Holy Scriptures. Parousia involves a continuing presence, not just an “approach.” An “approach” is the Greek word erchomai. I agree the confirmation of the covenant will begin the seventieth week. According to the 4th seal of Revelation 6, death and hades gain control of 1/4 of the earth and go on a killing spree. The text does not say 1/4 of the earth's population dies. It says that death and hades get control over 1/4 of the earth. Now, Isaiah 28:14-15, Israel is making a covenant or pact with death and sheol (hades) for protection from the scourge that death and hades are carrying out. During that, the scourge or mass killing of those who have trusted in Messiah since the removal of the righteous is going on. That is the 5th seal. As to who death and sheol/hades represents does not seem to be some abstract concept but references to real identities. Some have postulated that death and hades/sheol is a veiled reference to the false prophet and the false religious system. That does fit. Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Nothing in the text you mention says anything about the removal of the righteous, or anybody trusting in Christ since the removal of the righteous. The antichrist confirms that covenant as per Daniel 9:27 which officially triggers the start of the 70th week / 7 years. At that point, the two witnesses kick into high gear and start their activities that tick off the earth dwellers. One should do a serious study on earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth, etc. The allusion throughout scripture, it is an idiom for those who are condemned. The 144K are separated at this point also. Since the two witnesses are operating directly in authority of God, the idea that they are bringing forth the wrath of God is hard to dispute effectively. Your timeline concerning the two witnesses fails to take into account that their ministry is finished at the end of the second woe. This places their 1260 days primarily in the second half of the week, not in the first as you hypothesize. Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Since they are slain by the Beast, who continues to live through the third woe or 7 vial judgements, their 1260 days begins before the 42 months of the Beast. Concerning the earth dwellers, many months ago I provided such teaching introducing the topic on this forum. If it is true that they are agents of God’s wrath, it is another indication that their ministry takes place in part after Christ’s appearing, which begins the day of the Lord. The covenant made with Israel will be annulled by the antichrist, according to Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18. That most likely begins when the two witnesses are killed at the midpoint per Revelation 11. At that point, the fleeing of Jerusalem begins in accordance to what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:15-16. OC, Dan 9:27 does not say that he annuls the covenant, it says that he defiles the temple which causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease. You are reading into the text. Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. It is a great stretch to say that this is the covenant with many that he confirms. As shown a few paragraphs before, the witnesses finish their ministry at the end of the second woe (sixth trumpet judgement). This means that their death and ascension takes place after the great tribulation and after all but the last of the trumpet judgements, which is the seven vials. The entire bottom drops out and the GT kicks into hight gear. There is nothing said to be unprecedented about the seventieth week until in the middle when the great tribulation begins. The remaining Israelis who have fled finally realize their offense of rejecting the true Messiah, Yeshua, and corporately turn to Him and petition Him to rescue them. This is in accordance with Hosea 5:14 - 6:2, which was affirmed by Yeshua is Matthew 23:39. Hos 5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him. Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. The righteous up to the point of the 1st seal have no part in all of this. OC, you have seen that the day of our rapture is the day God’s wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth-dwellers in the day of the Lord (Lk 17:26-30). You have also seen that the day of the Lord doesn’t come until after the sixth seal is opened (Joel 2:31, Rev 6:12-17). Yet you still contend that the rapture takes place before the first seal. It is very hard to shake off a system that is so ingrained into the whole of your understanding of the Scriptures, even if it is a false system. Numerous OT passages support that as does comments from Yeshua in Matthew 21. Psalms 27 supports it. Isaiah 26 and 66 support it. Jeremiah 30 supports it. Micah 5:3 supports it. And the list goes on. These full chapters are too lengthy to paste here. Reguardless, they do not say what you are alleging. Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And those OT passages when taken in light of Revelation 12:2-5 along with Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and Ephesians 5;23, a very vibrant picture of a removal of the righteous before the 70th week / 7 years comes into focus. And I didn't even touch on the traditional passages that most pre-trib folks use, though those passages are apropos. Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything here to challenge the clear statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the elect experiencing unprecedented persecution before being caught out at Christ’s appearing. The entire point being, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 allusions to the OT. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to confirm everything Paul taught them. All they had was the OT and other pre NT writings. Ecclesiastes says there in nothing new under the sun, and Paul tells us that what was written before was for our learning. At the time Paul wrote that, it could only mean the OT. Virtually every assertion about the events of the last days must be corroborated in both the NT and the OT to be considered valid. I agree that much of what we know concerning the events surrounding the coming of Christ can be found in the OT. However, the Apostles tell us that what the prophets were moved to speak and write was not always understood by them. If they, did not understand what they had prophesied, what makes you think you can understand them, without the illumination found in the NT. It is now in these last days (the time of Christ through the present) that these things are revealed unto us by the Christ and the Apostles in the NT. Your two witnesses hermeneutic, is, as I have described it here. It is a construct of man’s imagination. It would have been better if you would have been a Berean when you were taught that misplaced principle of jurisprudence. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, αἰφνίδιος (aiphnidios), the word translated "sudden" in 1 Thes 5:3, doesn't mean "in a moment", it means "unexpected." It is also found in Luke 21:34 where it is translated "unawares." This truth should cause a slight modification in your eschatological narrative. The only thing that takes place in a moment (atom, the smallest unit of time in the Koine Greek era) is the change of our mortal body to immortal. The day of the Lord begins with Christ's arrival at which time we are raptured. Then later the same day the first trumpet judgement falls upon the earth-dwellers. Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, Jesus ties the events which serve as signs of His coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) to the last of Daniel's seventy weeks. Dan 9:27 says that "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". I understand the week to begin when the covenant (whatever that may be) is confirmed with many. All we are told about that covenant is that in the midst (middle) of the seven years, he (the confirmer of the covenant) will cause the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings through the defiling of the temple. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This defiling of the temple Jesus called the abomination of desolation and it begins the great tribulation in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21) Glory to Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, can you provide even one verse that says that the saints (of any type) are experiencing the tribulation you describe in the first half of the week. Jesus, referencing Daniel, links the start of the great tribulation to the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27). John links the beginning of the great wrath of the Devil toward Israel and Christians to the middle of the week (Rev 12:7-17). Paul links the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) to the middle of the week (2Thes 2:7). ("Mesos" which means middle was translated "the way" at the end of that verse. Paul is saying that the restrainer, Michael, stands aside in the middle). Daniel links Michael standing aside and the beginning of the unprecedented time of trouble to the middle of the week (Dan 12:1, 7). Glory to Jesus Christ.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, it does appear that what John sees at the opening of the fourth and fifth seals is connected. I take it to be the great tribulation. There are a hand full of reasons why I do. First I have noticed a parallel between that which Jesus describes as the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8) and what John sees at the opening of the first three seals (Rev 6:1-6). If they are the same thing, and they appear to be, then it follows that what comes right after the beginning of sorrows will be that which John sees when the 4th and 5th seals are opened. When Jesus said "then" (Matt 24:9), we know that the unprecedented persecution follows the beginning of sorrows. When Jesus said "therefore" (Matt 24:15) we know that the violent persecution that he introduced in verse 9 is the great tribulation (Matt 24:21) that begins with the abomination of desolation as specified in verse 15. The fact that the great tribulation follows the beginning of sorrows makes it clear that what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals is discripive of that time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel. The second thing that indicates that what John sees at the opening of seals 4 and 5 is the great tribulation is the indication of mass loss of life. Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. It would appear that a quarter of the population are killed. However, it could mean that the deaths take place in an area which is a quarter of the earth. I am not dogmatic either way. Any way you look at it a lot of people are being killed. This parallels the slaughter of the elect that Jesus said would be so severe that if He didn't cut it short, none of them would be left alive. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Also, I have noticed that the means of the loss of life is consistant with that spoken by Christ and John's descriptions of the persecutions of the Beast found in the rest of the book of Revelation. It is intresting to note that the only other uses of "thay-ree'-on", the Greek word translated beasts in verse 8, in the book of Revelation, is to identify the Beast (Antichrist) and the beast out of the earth (the False Prophet) and we know they are primarily responsible for the violence commited against the elect and Israel in the great tribulation. Another thing that causes me to believe that seals 4 and 5 reveal the happenings of the great tribulation is what follows when the sixth seal is opened. When the sixth seal is opened, John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would take place before the day of the Lord. So, Christ's revelation at the beginning of the day of the Lord follows the scene in heaven when the martyred saints are told that God's vengeance upon their murderers whould have to wait a little season until their brethren and fellowservants are killed as they were. This is exactly how Christ described His coming in Matt 24. Great tribulation, until it is cut short by his return , at which time He is revealed in the clouds, and then gathers his own to himself. Remember that Jesus and Paul taught that the day of our rescue would be the day His wrath falls upon our persecutors. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. There is absolutely no Scripture that forces one to conclude that the seventieth week is the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. That is an accomidation to a eschatological system that can be shown to be based upon missunderstandings, conjecture, inferance, and circular reasoning. It is very clear that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week and that the day of the Lord comes after it. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, MM, there is only one eschatological day of the Lord. Glory be unto Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, even the casual reader of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians who hasn't been brainwashed with the pre-trib system can see that it is the severe persecution that the Thessalonians were suffering that caused them to think that they were in that period of great tribulation which comes right prior to Christ's return to gather His own to Himself. Paul tells them, No, the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time), because the unprecedented persecution that Jesus spoke about will not start until the revelation of the man of sin (abomination of desolation) and it cannot be cut short until there is a notable departure from the faith due to the persecution and deception (lying signs and wonders) of the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers (Jesus described the unprecedented persecution in detail in Matt 24:9-29). Recognizing that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is a verbatim description of that cosmic sign that Joel and Peter said would come prior to the day of the Lord will force you to correct your rapture timing model. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; God's wrath comes as a surprise upon the lost world on the very day that we are raptured. The period of time in which God's wrath is poured out upon the Beast worshipping world is the beginning portion of the day of the Lord (the day continues throughout Christ's eternal reign). God's wrath doesn't fall until the day of the Lord begins following the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. God's wrath or vengeance doesn't come until after the fellowservants and brethren of the martyred souls under the altar are martyred also. Jesus made it very clear that the rapture comes on the very day that His wrath begins to fall. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. If the day of the rapture, and the day that God's wrath begins to fall are the same day? And they are. If it is at the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath begins to fall? And it is. If the day of the Lord follows the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal? And it does. Then the rapture comes after the sixth seal is opened! Case closed How hard was that? The proverb "none are so blind as those who will not see" may fit you, and you may never come in line with what the Scriptures say concerning the timing of Christ's return and our gathering together unto Him. That is until you see the man of sin and are experiencing violent persecution. Will you be faithful unto death? Or will you take the mark to save your physical life and damn your soul for eternity? That will be a true test that will show what kind of faith you have. Is your's an unfeigned abiding faith in the person and work of the Eternal Son of God who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity. Or is your faith in the Jesus that has been conjured by the escapist prosperity gospel preachers of this postmodern day? Jesus will say to those, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you. Alan, I don't know you other than that you are as mixed up as I once was. God is good, and He can change you, He can cause you to see if you ask Him. But even if you don't, there are others who read these posts who will be helped. Ultimately it is for these that I spend the time I do, on this board. Glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Hales, your statement is saying the exact opposite of the apostle Paul in 2Thes 2:1-3 Paul asks them to not be disturbed or frightened thinking that the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the rapture) is near in time. He says that that day, the day of Christ, shall not come until the departure from the faith takes place that is brought on by the great tribulation which is initiated by the revelation of the man of sin, who is the Beast, standing in the temple shewing that he is God. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord. None are so blind as those who will not see. Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Indeed the Lord has left us with enough revelation to know the times and seasons of Christ's return, that is if you are watching. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. The times and seasons that we can know is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will come upon the unbelieving world like a thief and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But we who know Christ and are watching will not be caught by surprise by the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. We will be spiritually awake and alert, unlike the lost world. We are watching because Christ told us what to watch for. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. While sudden destruction awaits them, our expectation at Christ's arrival upon the day of the Lord is salvation. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. We, who are Christ's, are not appointed unto the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord, but we shall be raptured to be with Him before the wrath falls. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Those who have been persecuting us who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be tribulated by God. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; When Christ is revealed from heaven with the mighty angels we will rest from those who persecuted us. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, At that time Christ's wrath will be felt by our persecutors who believed not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord) which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him will not be near in time until the falling away (apostasia = departure from the faith, many shall be offended Matt 24:9-10) that Jesus spoke of taking place following the beginning of the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) initiated by the Beast standing in the temple shewing himself to be God. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Paul had communicated these eschatological truths to them when in Thessalonica. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Now they know what is keeping Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him from being near in time (at hand). 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Even though the mystery of iniquity is already at work, it will continue to be restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle of the week 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. When Michael stands aside, the Beast, who is given power by Satan, will be revealed, but his end is to be destroyed. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Indeed we are seeing indications that we are in the final years before Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence). However, that means that we should see the covenant confirmed, the Temple rebuilt, the sacrifices and offering instituted, conquest, war, famine, and earthquakes, the defiling of the Temple by the Beast which stops the sacrifice and offering, unprecedented persecution, and the falling away. When we have seen these we can know that Christ could come any day. However, His arrival will be portended by a notable cosmic sign which will indicate to those of us who are alive and remain that our redemption is nigh (could happen any minute). Glory to Jesus Christ the Lord

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, so many of your arguments are straw men. I agree the Bible teaches that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, following the cosmic sign. That is what I teach. However, Christ's wrath on that day doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? I agree with this except for the "moment." Jesus tells us that the day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath falls upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30). However, Christ's wrath does not fall first upon the day of the Lord. The first day of the period of time known as the day of the Lord goes like this: 1) Christ's appearing and revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels, 2) The earth dwellers begin to hide, 3) The dead in Christ are resurrected (they stand again), 4) those who are alive and remain are changed, 5) Both the resurrected and the changed shall be caught up (raptured) by the angels to be with the Lord in the clouds, 6) We shall be escorted to the place prepared for us in the Father's house where we will stand before the throne, 7) During all this there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed for protection from the soon to fall wrath of God while they remain upon the earth, ? The seventh seal is opened, 9) There is a half hour of silence in Heaven, and 10) the first trumpet is blown initiating God's wrath. All of this happens on the first day. I agree that concerning the beginning of sorrows Jesus said the end is not yet. However, Christ's use of "then" in verse 9 lets us know that the beginning of sorrows immediately precedes the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation that begins in the middle of the week. Your demand for sameness, if consistently applied, would necessitate for you to believe that Jesus gave three different Olivet discourses. Or that there will be a future day of the Lord, which is different from the future day of Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus, which is different from the future day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, which is different from the future day of redemption. They don't have to use the exact same words to describe the same event. Joel 2:31, Isa 2:19, Isa 13:6-11, Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25, and Rev 6:12-17 all describe the same event. Paul's statement to the Thessalonians is very clear that the day of Christ or the day of the Lord is the coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Mr. mad, you have a problem with the Holy Scriptures, not me, I'm just the messenger. By the way, your last name is apropos. Glory be to Jesus Christ the Lord