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JoeChan82

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Everything posted by JoeChan82

  1. Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Sin is not subjective. The law tells us what constitutes sin, whether we are impressed or not.
  2. Wow. That will preach. Romans 6:1-7 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
  3. Yes. You are right. Except for the part in parenthesis.
  4. Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Yes, the people against whom the wrath is come do see for themselves that they need to hide. No question. But just because they see the wrath is upon them doesn't mean that the wrath begins on or during the 6th seal. It isn't until Revelation 11 that 24 elders declare the wrath has come. Revelation 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; … The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. … 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. I think the distinction is clear enough. The enemies of God see it coming at the 6th seal, but heaven declares it in Revelation 11 when the seventh angel sounds. I think both groups are talking about the same wrath. So when does the wrath begin? I say it begins at the 7th trump and you say at the 6th seal, but we both use scripture to prove our points. I have read enough of these topics to know this won't persuade everybody.
  5. He who controls the lexicon, controls the argument. That is why I do not refer to Daniel's 70th week the "Seven Years of Tribulation". Once you put the term Seven Years of Tribulation into play, you then divide it into 3.5 years of tribulation and 3.5 years of Great Tribulation. Argument closed. All verses will be interpreted from that perspective. So when someone tries to point out that wrath and tribulation are not equal, the proponents of the pretribulation rapture theory can tell you to go read your bible and be entirely sincere. The argument is this; the church is not here because it is gone. It's gone because we are not appointed to wrath and the "Seven Years of Tribulation" is entirely wrath. They cannot yield a single point without opening other questions to debate and that, claim they, is false teaching. How somebody could actually read George's topic on the slanderous topics about prophecy and simply double down is beyond me. Rudyard Kipling wrote: If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: (I edited out the middle of the poem for brevity) If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
  6. What? Use scripture? That is a ridiculous idea. It takes up too much space. (This was a bad attempt at humor. I'll refrain from comments like these in the future.)
  7. Before you reply again, you might want to check out this link. http://www.bibleprophecy.com/did-daniel-9-predict-the-coming-of-jesus-or-antiochus-epiphanes/
  8. Don't think. Read. Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
  9. Just as a point of interest here, I read a book where the author claimed that the ' false prophet of the desert' is a Muslim and the 'priests of the secret chamber' are the Roman Catholic hierarchy. I am not saying he is right, but it is interesting.
  10. Oh, dear. After a well researched and presented case involving multiple pages and examples of folks on different sides of the eschatological scale you are presented with applause and boos. You are given ultimatums and perfunctory assertions that one side is straight from scripture to the exclusion of any other position. You cannot make everybody happy. Despite the hot environment on these topics, I am able to glean insight into the views of some of the people posting. I gather that some of you know each other personally, but you are all anonymous to me so I can take any answer in stride. I hope to figure out as many positions as I can. This is one of the few sites left that even tolerate debate on eschatology. It would be nice to see someone finish making their position clear before they are blasted to silence or answered by one line statement with no explanation. Sure you are sick of repeating your position to obstinate posters. So what? It's not hard to be polite and gracious. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
  11. I am having trouble with that one too. I think maybe the book with the 7 seals could fit the sealed book of Daniel. I tend to think that the book of life is a different book.
  12. I am not sure if it is accurate to say that the book of life is contained within the 7 sealed scroll or not. But if the 7th seal opens the 7 trumpets, and the 7th trumpet opens the 7 vials, then you might be able to make the case that the book of life is opened concurrent to these seals/trumpets/vials. In either case JoeCanada and Dapupper's posts do deserve more than automatic gainsaying. I think you two made a unique case worthy of further consideration. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to find on this site!
  13. I'm telling you, this is fruitless. Mary didn't recognize Him at the tomb, the two on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Him on the road, Peter and John didn't recognize Him while fishing, and Thomas didn't recognize Him until he examined His wounds. As soon as they recognized Him they all worshipped. But all the disciples left their livelihoods and families to follow Jesus before he was crucified and resurrected. Sure, they thought He was going to restore the kingdom. When I got saved, I didn't know much. The more I learn, the more I am amazed at the power and love of God, but I truly believed the very moment of my salvation despite all my ignorance. Please me when I say that I am not trying to give you a hard time. We just disagree on this point. I read your entire posts and I think about what you say. I really appreciate the challenges you offer. I also realize that my last answer to you sounded belittling. I am sorry for that.
  14. I started a topic asking why it is important to know when the church started. I see why by your answer. You see the church beginning at Pentecost, am I right? And that is critical to the whole separation of Israel from the Church doctrine.
  15. No, Daniel 11:36 is right, when he said "A very specific time and place is given, for a specific group of people, Israel. This is the difference Marv". That is your defense here. You will never convince me that the disciples had a head knowledge only until the resurrection. For instance, if you go here - Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. - then I'm going to debate the meaning of the word converted. And on and on we go. I see salvation by grace through faith in Christ as a constant from Adam to the end. The Old Testament saints believed looking forward to Christ and we believe looking back. The disciples believed looking forward to the cross just like all the other OT saints, except the disciples actually walked with Him. So go with Daniel 11:36's advice. That is your strongest argument, in my opinion.
  16. If you want to understand the perspective of the folks arguing against you here, let me suggest that you pick up a copy of Dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin. It has charts and explanations. For a more in depth study of eschatology, get Things to Come by Dwight Pentecost. At least you can check the verse references and proof texts at your leisure. This way you can make up your own mind. In my opinion, most of the people on this site are not crazy nor fringe fanatics, they are arguing a well organized and established systematic theology.
  17. John 6:66-69 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by what you say here, but on the face of it, I am compelled to disagree. Peter seems to be making a strong, clear statement of faith in Christ here. We may just be quibbling over the meanings of a few words. Speaking of Peter, he fell in the garden, but was restored in John 21, which happened before Christ's ascension. When you said 'The Disciples really did not believe until the resurrection." were you referring to Christ's ascension? I'm not jumping down your throat, just looking for clarification. Thank you for your patience. I realize that I can be quite dense at times.
  18. Hey n2thelight. I totally agree with the second part of your statement. I do have to say, though, that it really does matter who Jesus came to first, but isn't relevant to your question as some assert. (If that is what you meant, forgive me for this unnecessary intrusion.) The book of Acts spends many chapters describing the Samaritan believers and then the gentile believers being saved. The believing Jews had a hard time accepting non or half breed Jews into the church. Acts 10:44-48 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Having said that, I need to add this; it wasn't God that had the problem with Samaritans and gentiles, it was the believing Jews typified by Peter. Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
  19. This post will end up with arguments about who got grafted, what is grafting, into what did they get grafted, who is the church, who is Israel. All these topics are related. If you see the church and Israel as two distinct and separate entities you will have one answer. If you see gentiles as becoming fellow heirs to Jewish believers of all ages, you will have a different answer. So to answer the question in the OP, if you can tell me why the Great Commission is for the church, but anything else Jesus said is only for Israel, then you are a better man than I am.
  20. To finish the verses you quoted: Matthew 15:25-28 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Jesus did heal her daughter.
  21. Hello Rocky. There is an obvious connection of the Old Testament convocations and their associated feasts to the gospels as well as the rest of the New Testament. In fact, until I understood that the last supper was indeed the Passover, this passage confused me. Once I realized that Jesus was eating the Passover with His disciples, I understood that when Christ said, "Take, eat; this is my body." he was revealing Himself as the Passover. 1 Corinthians 5:7 … For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Matthew 26:26-28 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. So I understand the importance of Pentecost as well. I followed the links you posted and read all of it. Good stuff.
  22. Thank you Christine. No doubt that Acts is a transitional book. You are, however, the first person that I have ever heard say that the church began at the end of Acts. I have heard that the church began at Pentecost and I have heard that it started with the disciples as recorded in the gospels. I like some of the points you made in your post. Now I have a third option to look at. ? There is a consistency in your arguments that I appreciate.
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