Brother Duke

Since the man of sin is a precursor before our gathering to Christ and many of us think the end times are here or near, how can we identify the man of sin and the beast? 2 Thess 2:1 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

I say we listen to Paul and not our own opinion. If we cannot agree there then we will both just have to wait until the end and see what happens. 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

If I may interject here. The earth quake in 8:4 is not listed as a great earth quake like it is everywhere else. All the resurrection verses are associated with a great earth quake. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

How can the day of the gathering to Christ come if we are waiting on the departure to Christ? That does not make sense. The gathering to Christ depends on two things. 1) apostasia <- Believing a lie or departing from the truth. 2) man of sin be revealed. Both of these need to happen before we can be gathered to Christ. Paul then goes on to explain what both of these two conditions are in detail. No where in the 2 Thess 2 does Paul go into detail about the departure of the church. He does go into detail about the man of sin and about everyone lacking truth. 1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: The only other place apostasia is used is acts 21:21. Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Here it is translated as forsake but it could also be to not believe Moses. If apostasia meant depart here it would make no sense. Would they depart Moses or not believe Moses?

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. I count the number of times Woe is mentioned in each sentence but also I link it to Rev 9:1 where a star falls to earth and releases the bottomless pit. Rev 9:1 is in the first Woe. Notice Rev 18:10 Alas is the same word as woe in Greek but it is called twice in Rev 18:10, Rev 18:16 and Rev 18:19 in addition as is fallen in Rev 14:8. I make this out to be the 2nd woe when Babylon falls. It is always called twice. Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas(WOE), alas(WOE), that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas(WOE), alas(WOE), that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas(WOE), alas(WOE), that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Hi Uriah, Are you post wrath then before we are all caught up with the Lord?

2 Thess 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved Also 2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Believing a lie is the opposite of Truth! Just the same the gathering to Christ does not happen until the departure and then the man of sin is revealed. Are you saying there are two gatherings in 2 Thes 2? One for the Rapture and then the man of sin is revealed and then a 2nd gathering for everyone else? That would not make sense. Paul tells us what he was talking about just a couple of sentences later in 2 Thes 2:5-12. 1. The man of sin is revealed. 2. They depart from truth and believe a lie. <- Same as Isaiah 66. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 4 is the Thesis Statement. Then Thessalonians 2:5-12 is the Topic.

There is a bride but it is not the gentiles. Israel is still betrothed to God. I still submit that the 144,000 remnant of Israel from all the tribes not just Judah are the bride. God will reunite all of Israel back together and they will once again be his people and his betrothed. Looks and see who comes back with Christ. It is not the gentiles. The 144,000 are with Christ forever after he returns. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads Revekation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It is a departure from truth. The faithful that have the Holy Spirit will not depart but those believing the lie will. Paul talks about it the very next verses. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation does jump around a little but there are markers to line it up. This is why I titled this the study of woe. Looking at the first woe. Rev 8:13 The first woe is about to start. Rev 9:12 The first woe has just past. Rev 12:12 The Devil comes down to the earth on the first woe. Related to Rev 8:13?

No it doesn't, Satan has just twisted and confused people as he is want to do. Read my post at the top....."Is the Falling away a false teaching" The whole passage is about the Church DEPARTING from the earth to go be with the Lord, and thus we will no face Gods Wrath. Paul is telling the Thessalonians this to assuage their fears, someone has told then they are going to go trough the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath, and Paul is saying: Apostasia does not mean departure of the church. It means departure from the faith. Paul goes on to spell it out afterward. God is going to send them a delusion since they do not believe the truth. This is the same as Isaiah 66. It is all in the same context. 2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offeredswine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Hi Heleadethme, From scripture we see Israel is God's witness, not the gentiles. Seeing the 144,000 we see they are from all the tribes of Israel not just the Jews. How does the one people of Israel become two witnesses? Easy, they were divided into two nations or two kingdoms after Solomon sinned. The Southern Kingdom called Judah; consisting of the Jews and Benjamin along with Levites and the Northern Kingdom represented by the names of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim and consisting of the other tribes of Israel. These two kingdoms are promised the new covenant. The gentiles are grafted into Israel and are also inheritors of that promise. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. As for the math with New Jerusalem it is actually a cube. Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Hi JoeCanada, I am not pre-trib but there is scripture that can show that the 144,000 are witnesses. The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel. Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; Isaiah 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Isaiah 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. The People of Israel are God's witnesses. Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. Israel is the Olive Tree Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Israel is the two witnesses and the two olive trees.

I think the devil comes down and the man of sin is revealed in the first woe. The 3rd Woe is the wrath of God. The 1st Woe is the wrath of the devil. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Rev 12 and Rev 9 are both in the 1st Woe possibly the same event.

Hi angels4u, Where does it say they come down from heaven?

Hi Steve Conley, Not sure what others think but it is my belief that the 144,000 are the two witness and will preach or witness. They are sealed and protected like the two witness and the Woman of Rev 12. I submit they are all the same group. God said that Israel is his witness and that Israel is the Green Olive Tree. The 144,000 represent the remnant of Israel.

It is my belief this does not happen until after the tribulation starts. I think this is in the 2nd woe. Look how verses for Babylon in Revelation are always in two or two woes. Rev 18:2 With a mighty voice he shouted: "'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!' She has become a dwelling for demons and a haunt for every impure spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal. Rev 18:10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: "'Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!' Rev 18:16 and cry out: "'Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! Rev 18:19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: "'Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!' At the end of the 2nd WOE comes the Great Earthquake. Same as Mathew 24? Rev 11:13 t that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. This is also at the 6th trumpet. Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. Rev 9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God.

Hi Diaste, Why do you think there are millions of tribulation saints? I would say it is much higher and even into the billions. Revelation says they cannot be numbered. This is such high a number that we do not even know. Revelation does mention many numbers that can be counted so the tribulations saints are even high than these. Some of the number that are counted in Revelation are the 144,000 from Israel and the 200,000,000 Army in Revelation 9:16 so the number of tribulation saints must be much higher since 200 million can be counted.

To attend the wedding.

Was Matthew 24 to Israel or the Jews only? The Jews are one tribe of Israel similar to California is one state in the USA. 21And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. The House of Israel and the House of Judah split apart. Those we know in the land of Israel today are Jews and Benjamin known as the House of Judah but not all those from the House of Israel are Jews.

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. God made his new covenant with the divided Israel Kingdoms. The House of Israel and with the House of Judah. Most people that read the bible treat both Kingdoms as the same.

Hi Revelation Man, Who do you think the "house of Israel" are?

More than just Israel. Mat 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. Mat 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Mat 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I am still waiting for you to answer my posts. Just because you do not have a reply is no reason to call us false. I showed valid scripture.

If the church gentiles and native born Israelites are both accepting of Christ and together are Israel then what extra redemption is necessary? Also nothing is replaced. They are together as one. One body and one spirit.