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They are saying He would be, if He chooses who gets saved and who doesn't. If all have sinned and God chooses only certain ones, they are saying that would be random and capricious . . . to do what is not equal with sinners who all are in sin together. But God does every thing with His purpose. Every choice He makes is with His purpose. So, what about how God's word says God "hardens" someone? How does a worm get hardened? First, the worm is dead, on the sidewalk. And in the sunshine the worm does not benefit from the sunshine, because it is dead, but instead the worm rots and then stinks. And after a while of sun shining on the worm, then is when the worm gets hardened. It is hardened by the sunshine which is so life-giving. But the character of the worm is the problem; the worm is dead, by character, so it rots and hardens, even right in the sunshine which is life-giving. So, may be we could say it is a fact that God hardens a love-dead sinner, but it is the fault of the sinner's nature, how he or she rots and stinks and then hardens, even right in the light of God's love.

Jesus says to live by every word of God . . . right? So, from this I see that every scripture can help us to become like Jesus so we love like Jesus and please our Father like Jesus is so pleasing to our Father. This is God's basic purpose, I get through Romans 8:29 > "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29) This is the basic of what God's word is guaranteed to accomplish > as it is written > "'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'" (Isaiah 55:11) What is "the thing" which every word of God is guaranteed to accomplish and prosper in doing? I would say that Romans 8:29 can help to answer this. And scripture includes things about . . . His life And in the scriptures about Jesus' life we have things He says about how to be and how to love like Jesus. So, yes, God's words about Christ's life and things He said during His life on earth can help us to become and to love like Jesus. This means how God Himself is able to use any scripture to minister for us to be perfected in Christ and to love and share as His family and love any and all people the way Jesus was doing, on the cross.

A person can do things in smog and get sicker and sicker. But if the person does things in fresh air, the person can become stronger and healthier. Like this . . . may be . . . if we do things in our own effort and egos, we can break down and burn out and argue and complain. But if we do all things in God's love . . . this love has God's almighty effect in our character while we exercise in this love > "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14) "exercise yourself toward godliness" (in 1 Timothy 4:7) And we have > "Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," > in Philippians 2:13-16. So, as we refuse to give in to whatever would get us to argue or complain, we can become more like Jesus and love like Jesus more and more maturely. Of course, we do this with God in us who has us succeeding in saying no stuff in us that would have us complain or argue. And God in us gets rid of that stuff and has us living in sharing with Him in His love. And as we so share with God, He is the One affecting our character to become more like Jesus. So, this is exercise, saying no to evil things that cause arguing and complaining. And we are exercising as we submit to God and how He gets rid of that wrong emotional stuff and negative reacting and excuse making. And we are exercising while doing love things in submission to God. All is in sharing with Him

There is a pastor who had a daughter die in a crash. This is how I understand what happened > He was called to the scene to identify his girl. At the scene, he sensed God's presence - - and an unspoken communication from God, that God was in control. A student had driven too fast and got her killed hitting a tree, and that bad driver lived, to go back to school and face the other students. One time, different students were hating on the guy whose bad driving got her killed; then the girl's brother went over and gave the guy a hug; that stopped the bad talking. And the pastor knew his daughter would want him to forgive the guy who killed her by driving so thoughtlessly. He then understood, that God was showing him that hard things can happen to people who are sure they are living for God. And that pastor had been presuming he was living right and therefore bad things would not happen to him; he took that tragedy to be intended to wake him up and now he should use what happened to him, to help people to not get into supposing they are immune to troubles because they are so sure they are trusting God. To me, he seemed to be making too much of a thing about how any of us might get hit by a major tragedy. Because I believe God does have perfect control of everything; He has His overall focus of conforming us to Jesus (Romans 8:29) and having us minister this to each other, and I don't think endless tragedies and suffering about them would fit with this purpose. And we do not see everyone constantly getting into major tragedies > none are by accident. Plus, a number of times people greatly help themselves into things, plus ones have been living for themselves so they are weak enough to suffer much more than they would if they were growing in Jesus and His strength > Ephesians 6:10. But it seems a lot of people avoid dealing with how we can prevent a lot of disasters and prevent any suffering which is helped by our spiritual weakness. People can suffer much more than necessary, because they have not gotten ready with Jesus for whatever He knows will really happen. So, only sympathizing with people does not help them to become deeply strong and creative for handling trouble the best way possible. Jesus does warn us of various horrible things guaranteed to happen, and He says to be ready and not let our hearts be troubled . . . right? I dare consider, then, that that pastor was in ministerial immaturity which had him unready, and he jumped right into overly correcting himself so he was giving too much ministerial attention to how to deal with major tragedies, and being overly attentive to the possibility of bad things happening to us. But yes we are Biblical to turn tragedies to our use, for helping others, using our experience to feel for others and to minister on to them however God has blessed us to go through things > this is what Jesus has been doing > Hebrews 4:15.

"I don't know. I am so sorry that happened to you. Thank you for telling me about this. I can see I might have hurt you by telling what happened with my family; I offer my apology, if I have caused you more pain and trouble. But yes of course I'm glad God had mercy on us." And I would go with whatever he had to say, by this point. "I understand," he might say. "I would be glad, too, if God spared my children." "Well, I appreciate your consideration and understanding; to me, this shows you could be a pretty honorable person. So, I can see you would be very concerned if this could happen to you while you have been honorable with God. And that could be part of your question about why this happened to you and not to me. Like I say, I don't know. So, it has been six months, you say? Has there been any way you have been helped, about this, including by people?" Well, if he had been attending my church, I would be very concerned that his situation did not come to my attention for six months!! And if he just showed up, this might mean he had not gotten help with other Christian people. So, I might take him as he is and see if we could help him . . . and his wife and anyone else.

Oh yes . . . each of us is unique in what God has for each of us to do. So, we would not be limited by what nationality we have or what ethnic group we are in. Look at how Joseph was an outsider, in Egypt > Genesis 37-50 > and God used him to bless so many people not in his own family and nationality. How we bless has first to do with God's love, not our nationality. The Egyptians would not sit with him to eat, even though Pharaoh made him chief authority over Egypt! But still God made him God's blessing to those people. So, God can make you His most important blessing to ones very different than you, even with their rules very different, and their beliefs.

Ok . . . . . . if you wish, we can talk about ways that we can be complicit with Satan. I think there are some things which have been staying under the radar > arguing and complaining > Philippians 2:14-16. beauty discrimination > instead of first loving each and every person, and not judging by what someone looks like > Matthew 5:46. unforgiveness > Ephesians 4:31-32. entitled anger > James 1:19-20. These things have been feeding people to stay weak so they can keep on suffering deeply. Ones may be innocent of obvious sins, but these are things which have not been well confronted in church culture ministry. And so ones can keep on in these items so they stay weak in what is not love. Ones might keep struggling between getting the pleasures they desire, and reacting negatively to not getting their own way. And then children do not have the love example they need so they can function in a close relationship. And then in their degradation they can turn to the things we now are seeing, supposing there they will have love and freedom. But they have been a product of even church culture and religion which have not effectively confronted the arguing and complaining and beauty discrimination and unforgiveness which have been in their upbringing to help prepare them to be weak and blind enough to get into what we see now. Oh, and notice how I did not list "entitled anger" in the above list. Already something is trying to sneak by! I was such a religious person, but that self-righteous entitled anger could be building up until I would blow up. And I was not loving the people who were around me, but building something else. So, by the way, then, in order to do God's will here, we need our character to be His way in love, including with His immunity almighty of love against the nasty and negative stuff . . . so the bitterness of that stuff does not spread to children. "looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;" (Hebrews 12:15) Ones have been "defiled" so they became the way we see now. And I have seen possibly how a number of church culture families can have very ducky morals . . . all their cute little duckies lined up in a row > how to wear hair and clothes, be moral, don't watch certain TV shows, on we can go > but there are so many things not in the row . . . directly anti-love things like arguing and complaining and beauty discrimination and entitled anger, and food abuse lusts which also can degrade someone and help keep him or her weak for pleasure so then a person can also keep deeply suffering emotionally. So, with Jesus we can share with Him in His strength and good sense, then be able to rule well. And how do we need to rule? "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) I have been one to have entitled anger ruling how I relate with people, lording over and trying to use people. Instead it works to submit to God in His peace and discover how He makes us creative to do better than our egos are able to conjure up. And the best dominion comes with prayer for how God will work things. For dominion, then, who and what are we depending on??

It seems Jesus has already said that our Father does know the exact time. However, I understand that our Father includes us in His process. One thing that stands out more and more for me is how champion players of a sports team will say they did things like a family with each other, and that helped a lot. And their family relationships will last longer than their dominion on the sports court or field or in the water.

But Romans 8:29 says the purpose of being in Christ's image is "that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." But there will be dominion. But first is being family with Jesus. And I think of this > in the Lord's prayer of John chapter 17, we see plenty about how Jesus prays for us to be one and loved the way our Father loves His own Son, as family, I would understand from this. But I do not recall mention of dominion. So, yes there will be dominion, but being in His image as family is primary.

There is dominion that is included. "'Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.'" (Luke 10:20) So, dominion over Satan is not the main thing. Plus, we have God's purpose > "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren," in Romans 8:29. And we have various scriptures which help to minister this > for example, Colossians 1:28-29. Being conformed to the image of Jesus is our first Biblical priority and purpose, I would say, while dominion is a byproduct of maturing in how Jesus is and loves.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

I would say "grace" has different meanings. There can be what I call grace "from a distance". For example, God from the throne of Heaven can forgive. And there is grace which actually works inside a person > God's renewing almighty creative energy . . . of how His love affects us in our character to change us to become and to love like Jesus. And I guess we could say there is the undeserved favor > maybe > "God's riches at Christ's expense", which ones preach . . . the good which Jesus on the cross gained for us. I now would say, when Jesus told Paul that Christ's grace is sufficient for Paul, this possibly means all the different meanings Why limit? Most of all, practically I would say, Paul would need how God Almighty worked in Paul's character and emotions and thinking and reacting, and how God personally would guide Paul to handle each situation. This would be "personal grace" inside Paul. And there would be the "circumstantial grace" of however God favored Paul by managing even evil around Paul for Paul's good . . . and the good of all of us. Because God is all-loving, His good for one ministers also to others. And, of course, I suppose you could say "saving grace" would continue through all that Paul went through, meaning Paul could not lose his salvation because of Satanic actions. And there is the "grace of God's correction" > Hebrews 12:4-14 < more important than handling problems around Paul was how Paul needed his own deep correction so he would handle things the right way . . . not merely do his own damage control in order to try to change his circumstances, but gain all the good of God's real correction, so he would become able to do well with and benefit from even evil things around him. Our Father favors us, by deeply correcting us in our character. And this has us in union with Him so we can share His holiness with Him, and enjoy His creativity for how to love each person. So this grace is all-loving, then, not only for some one person. The cup runs over.

We can take this in different ways. If grace saves a person, then one might argue that Mary needed grace so she was saved. And if you say grace is undeserved, then Mary did not deserve the grace. But, then the arguing can continue. Jesus Himself is "full of grace and truth", we have in John 1:14. Well, Jesus is not undeserving of our Father's favor, I would say. I now understand, that grace favors Jesus . . . how Jesus is . . . therefore changing us to become and to love like Jesus < favoring this . . . not really favoring us, but grace's action in us changes us away from how we are. Grace favors how we need to become pleasing to our Father, like Jesus is so pleasing. And Mary is not called "full of grace and truth", but only "full of grace". If she got "troubled" about seeing the angel, then perhaps this shows she was lacking - - maybe being favored, but not full of truth which could keep her from being "troubled".

Malachi 3:16 > "Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them;" @FTK > So, then, I see how the early church could have been speaking to one another, and that in agreement with Jesus who was with them. And what they agreed upon would be done, Jesus says, in Matthew 18:19.

One thing I think of > Paul in Ephesians 5 does not use Adam and Eve as his model for marriage. But Paul uses how Jesus relates with His church, as his model for how to relate in marriage.

Well, I would say prayer got them with God so they would do what He did with them. This might not show to others, but this was essential to getting God's results. The observer might need to observe someone for a while. Or, it could be obvious, right away. More obvious could be > preaching Jesus keeping company with other believers

Yes, thanks for the reminder. Indeed, there will be ones who do not know how to love us. And so, we need to be ready, so they can't get the better of us. One thing that helps is we are ready in prayer > including, possibly > "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34) And > "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13) According to what I see in Philippians 4:6-7, if we pray the way God's word means for us to pray > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7) So, we might not be protected outwardly, in one way or another, but in our "hearts and minds" we are guaranteed God's protection. God is almighty; His peace is almighty to easily guard our "hearts and minds". As we submit to Jesus in His peace > "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) Well, his so-called friends did not speak well to him. However, when Job met with Jesus Himself, Job felt he needed to repent "in dust and ashes" (Job 42:6). And after Job so answered to Jesus, then was when he got blessed with more than he lost! After Job answered to God and got the correction he himself needed, then was when things got a lot better. But while he was answering to ones who did not know how to love him . . . that did not work. But as he got real character correction (Hebrews 12:4-14), himself, then he was sharing with God in God's creativity so he could handle more good than what he lost. And how about Joseph > Genesis chapters 37-50? As he stayed with God, he got more and more than whatever he lost. And he gave his brothers more than they took from him.

"'Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah---'" (Jeremiah 31:31) "by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:22) "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6) "to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Hebrews 12:24) "But he who is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) "'And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.'" (John 17:22-23)

I have been in the American culture, since 1947. The stuff we see now has been around for a while. It just has gotten a chance to make a bigger show of itself. The Catholic group lost credibility, with that evil priest cover-up thing. And a lot of people were basing their morals on Catholic influence. So, now those people have been turned loose, and they have no guide; so they can go who knows which way. Yes, they were brought up in religious families, often enough. I in the 1960's spent a fair amount of time talking with kids of religious families. Even then . . . we could be pretty crazy. So, this stuff is nothing new, just more open . . . and maybe a product of how certain religious families have done things. Kids in religious families maybe have been taught all kinds of rules and morals, but not how to love in a close and tender relationship. The Bible clearly tells us various things about how to love, but I know I was not told these things when I was a kid. "Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14) This is a basic for getting into a real love relationship. Arguing and complaining are anti-love. So, while we keep staying weak enough to give in to arguing and complaining, we also are weak enough to get into various other nasty and deadly stuff, and not tender caring sweetly forgiving sharing in our close relationships. And while we give in to anti-love stuff, we won't be feeding our children the example they need for how to do well in a close involvement like marriage. And there has been beauty discrimination. This has ruined men from knowing how to love any and all women. And in their weakness and blindness of discrimination they have been able to go crazy for all kinds of stuff other than sweetly and tenderly sharing affection with a kind and tender lady of Jesus. And the weakness of this stuff has been in American culture for centuries. So, now we are just seeing a new tip on the iceberg. Chopping off the tip won't solve the problem of cold and selfish love. "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Jesus says in Matthew 5:46. Loving those we hope to use, then, is not loving. Only Jesus is our way to how our Father has us loving. So, with Jesus we are with the right One. Now we need, ourselves, to get God's real correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > this correction changes our character so we are sharing with God in His all-loving love and how He makes us creative for loving any person. And God uses prayer, His word, and our example of this which He personally spreads from us to others. Example works

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6) If we pray the way God's word means for us to pray > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7) So, if I care about people, my first concern is if they are obeying God in His peace so their hearts and their minds are functioning in this peace. God's peace is almighty to guard a person's mind against any and all nasty and negative stuff. This is God's own peace which He shares with us, while we are with Him in our minds and our hearts. Therefore, this is not only a doctrinal thing, but this is in the character of our minds so we have His almighty safety and stability mentally and in our hearts. So, what ones say about Calvinism or Arminianism is not the first concern I have about a person.

Well, Satan has things rigged to make it look like we can not agree. And one trick is to have a bunch of disagreeing people who never work things out. So, I would say, do not let that fool you. You can pray and trust God and find out how this works out. Of course, ones can claim, "Oh, a lot of disagreeing people have prayed for God to guide them, but they all still disagree." But God is able to communicate with you. One thing I think can help is, that we submit to God and discover where He guides our attention. He possibly will not guide us to get tangled with people who are endlessly talking about issues and not getting anywhere. And do what He says . . . not only trying to get straight about certain doctrinal questions, but > "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ" > in Ephesians 4:15. Give attention to what helps you to minister with others who are growing "in all things" of Jesus. Talk about what all these things are, trust God to share with us all His own things of His character and love. And in case you do discuss something with someone and if you are saying what is correct . . . this is God's word you put out to people. It is guaranteed to do all that God desires, no matter how anyone makes it look as though you have shared it for nothing > "'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'" (Isaiah 55:11) And if you do what God's word says to do, this can help you not to waste yourself and your attention. For one example > "swift to hear", we have in James 1:20. Instead of trying to get others to hear you and agree with you, make sure you are hearing God. Then be an example of this, not trying to control others to accept what you offer. "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

If someone is holding to a wrong idea, this can be because of a wrong spirit. So, yes it can make a big difference what we think and say. So, I try to check how someone is becoming emotionally while he or she is holding to an idea. How much is a belief helping the person to become like Jesus? Or, might the person's idea keep his or her attention away to arguing and even isolate the person from sharing well with Christian brothers and sisters? Pride can mess up a person, no matter what the person believes . . . even if he or she does have a correct belief. A person holding to free will can be very dictatorial . . . demanding that you make some choice since you have "free will" to choose that. And a predestination person also might be dictatorial, and demand you choose some thing because that is what all "truly predestined" people will choose! So, either way can be done the wrong way. Plus, humans can limit a belief like free will or predestination to only what certain limited and imperfect people have said already; but God can bring us to more and better than what either human "side" of an issue have been insisting and fighting for. But if God knows something is true, it is good to share with Him > God is able to communicate with us. A number of issues have a way of keeping our attention away from how God's correction changes our character to become like Jesus so we love like Jesus and become pleasing to our Father, like Jesus. Hebrews 12:4-14. But as we grow in Jesus, our maturing character has us able to get better understanding. But there are people still holding to things they were told while they were unsaved or immature. Ones who told them those things could be idols whom they hold above question; they can be in denial that their idols could be wrong. So, then, it is good to become able to make sure with God, about things

And > "that you all speak the same thing" (in 1 Corinthians 1:10).

Well, on my phone, here, there is a "Follow topic" setting which I can turn off, I understand, if I want to stop reading a thread. But this might show only after I start writing a reply! We can pray for God to guide our attention.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 > "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." So, yes God wants us to prove every thing, and hold to whatever is good. This is possible with God. God does want us to make sure with Him about what is good, all the time . . . with "all things". And this, I now understand, means what at each moment God Himself knows is good. So we need, then, to constantly submit to Him so He is guiding us to all He desires to share with us. During small things, we can learn and discover how to submit to God so at each moment we do simply what He has us doing. Then, in handling much bigger things . . . already we know how to simply do whatever He has us doing After becoming faithful to His personal guiding in little things, "practice has helped to make perfect" for bigger things > now we can be faithful to submitting to Him for handling bigger things . . . both problems and nicer things. And when a trouble comes . . . put it to the test and discover how God uses it for His good.