Charlie744

It is always nice when you have the time to respond... hope everything is yay work and they are not overworking you too much. This “gap” theory is / was critical for the “futuristic counter concept” to work! Prior to the 1500,s the wildly accepted belief was the little horn was the papacy. Luther and the Reformation presented a very serious threat to the RCC, and this “label” was a significant issue for them to refute. Consequently, they had to ensure that Christians would learn / be instructed that they could not possibly be the “little horn” since this character will come sometime in the future... since the RCC and the papacy were in existence for some 1000 years at the time of the Reformation, they argued it could not be the papacy. So, they re-interpreted certain verses in Daniel 9 WHICH ARE CLEARLY AN IMPORTANT PROPHECY OF THE MESSIAH (my opinion), they would now tell a completely different story. This gross misinterpretation needed to be flung into the future and therefore they insisted the last week in Daniel’s 70 weeks has yet to happen, AND they insisted the “he” in Daniel 9:24 was this mythical AC figure rather than point and speak of the coming Messiah. And here we are today where almost everyone accepts their successful gross new interpretation of Daniel. Daniel 9 is about the Messiah... everything in 9 was given to Daniel to prophecize about the coming Messiah, HIS death and being “cut off” in the “midst of the week”... Look at the language in 9... it is all about HIS mission and what HE will complete and accomplish WITHIN this last week of Daniel... God isn’t giving “ink” to Satan - the most important event in the history of the world will soon take place and God is having Daniel reveal to us what will happen.. yet we have allowed the “little horn” to re-direct HIS Scripture away from the most important prophecies in the Bible... go figure! Charlie

Diaste, I believe the 7 year tribulation time period originated from a gross misinterpretation of a verse in Daniel. Many / most contend the 70 weeks or 490 year prophecy, which began when the Jews were allowed to leave Babylon has this one 7 year (last week) period has yet to happen. Rather than a continuous 490 years, they believe there is a "gap" between the ending of the 483 years and the beginning of this last 7 years - so, they (again, most) are awaiting this last week to begin.... Unfortunately, this "concept" was conceived by the Jesuits around the 1500's to provide a strong counter to the coming or beginning Reformation. Prior to this time, the papacy was believed to be the "little horn" of Daniel. The RCC commissioned the Jesuits to come up with a new interpretation of Daniel that would "get this off their shoulders" and remove their identification as the "little horn" of Daniel - which I certainly believe they are. Consequently, there were two new concepts / interpretations presented - they both would counter the "little horn" label but the one that was accepted and tremendously marketed and pushed throughout the Christian world was this "futuristic" approach where this "little horn" character would not arrive until some 2,000 years or so in the future, thus removing ANY connection with the papacy since this "little horn" figure would arise out of the "beast" (4th kingdom - pagan Rome) after the City, the Temple and the Jewish people were desolated by Titus in 70 AD. This was and still is a very successful campaign by the RCC where almost all now accept this antichrist figure coming at the beginning of this remaining 7 year period and who will also sit in a 3rd Temple who will make an agreement with the Jews only to turn on them in the middle of the 7 years. In order for all of this to make any sense, this futuristic counter argument to the papacy being this "little horn", it required more than a few verses in Daniel 9 to be re-interpreted or more correctly grossly misinterpreted and promoted in a huge way ----- and it has worked so far... So, my opinion is the 70 weeks were certainly continuous and the last week of this 70 weeks began when the Messiah was baptized by John in the Jordan. This started HIS ministry and as we all know, Jesus was indeed "cut off" in the "midst of the week" when He was crucified. But all of this was also prophesied in both Daniel 9 and 11...... where this "little horn" will think to change times and laws, he will think himself to be god on earth, he will corrupt HIS Word and on and on...... This is what the "little horn" has been doing for some 1500 years. But as I mentioned, almost all have been drinking this coolaid for some 500 years and it is now perceived as "gospel" - so difficult to argue with such blind acceptance moving down a hill at great speed...... but it will come to the surface before HIS second coming..... In Daniel 12, we see the second mention to Daniel that he is to "seal up or shut up" this book (verses that will only be made known at the end of times) when knowledge will increase, etc. This may also be applicable to man's increase in their knowledge base (medicine, communications, engineering, travel, etc., and it certainly has), but God is speaking about our increase in the knowledge and understanding of HIS Word! Thanks Charlie

Anyone want to continue and discuss 11:4 to 11:6? Is Rome the 4th kingdom in Daniel’s chapter 2? Does the 4th kingdom begin in chapter 11 in verse 11:5? And therefore is the KOS Israel? Thank you, Charlie

Thank you very much for your candor and I greatly appreciate you responding... I certainly understand your position... it is terribly difficult to try and unlearn things that are so important and where they are such a enjoyable part of your relationship with God. Well, on to many other topics and please don’t stop offering your thoughts and opinions! Thanks again, Charlie

Thank you very much Diaste! But as I mentioned, I believe there is a purpose / reason for these differences - not just to give those folks who might need to see some differences in the Gospels to prove they have their own individual legitimacy AND independent value for us. By recording the multiples of 100, 60 or 30 X's in an opposite order does nothing to give any credence or support to their uniqueness; God does not need OUR opinion and acceptance ..... but HE always provides us more of HIM in the Scriptures than we seem to be able to identify..... and that is the point here. So let me throw our a thought that has just come to mind: Matthew is a book that speaks of Jesus as our KING. Mark is a book that speaks of HIM as a servant, while Luke speaks of HIM as a man. Can we try and see if there are deeper messages to why they record the "multiples" differently given the different views of the 3 Gospels? That is just one thought that comes to mind... Perhaps this "approach" might trigger some interesting thoughts... Charlie

Now I realize I have mentioned my lack of knowledge in reading the Scriptures, and while I am trying to complete Daniel, the only book I have read / studied so far, I found the Parable of the Sower in the Gospels that everyone is so familiar with...... However, when I went into the Gospels I noticed this parable was just a little different in each of the 3 recordings (John does not record this parable). Here are the 3 writings in each: Luke 8 New International Version 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.” Mark 4:1-20 New International Version 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.” Matthew 13:1-9 New International Version 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In each of the 3 Gospels you will notice the "yield or productivity or result" of the crops are recorded differently, and once again, this is not recorded in John which also must be meaningful should there be a "deeper meaning" to this parable (and since I believe that God does not do coincidences or random but has purpose for having His writers record even a small jot, there is more to learn here). Consequently, I hope to hear everyone's thoughts and comments on this...... so much knowledge and talent within this forum I am confident all and any response will be interesting and enjoyable. 1) Differences with yield among the 3: Luke only records 100 X's, Mark records 30, then 60, then 100 X's, Matthew records 100, then 60, then 30 X's (in opposite order of Mark), 2) Differences with terms (and yes they all had different ways of writing but again, I think it is more than just their individual way of writing). Luke uses ".... it came up and yielded....." Mark uses ".... it came up, grew and produced ......." Matthew uses ".....it produced a crop......" Hope there is some interest in this....... thanks, Charlie

SONshine, I believe I must apologize once again. You were kind enough to return to this discussion knowing you have firm believes with Daniel, and especially with Daniel 11. I believe my last response to your post (the one above) may have done more damage than good..... I suspect it was confusing. i would like another chance to respond to your post and try and be clearer and more concise where, even if you don't agree with my conclusions, you will have a better understanding of the "approach".... and that is what brought me to these conclusions. So, in response to your post above: 1) I would ask that you read and interpret Daniel 2 as though you have never read or studied any other book of the Bible beyond Daniel. The purpose of this is to try and ignore all the interpretations and beliefs that have formed your thoughts on Daniel and may have possibly corrupted Daniel. Essentially, a clear slate on reading and understanding Daniel. Without honoring this approach we would constantly be forced comparing these "Daniel pure" interpretations against those we now know come from books in the NT. 2) Therefore, we find certain actors in Daniel 2 to identify and understand: a) who is the 4th kingdom of the metal man image, b) the change from 100 % iron legs to a mix of iron and clay in the feet and the toes, c) who are the 1o toes, d) who is the "Stone", e) can we identify a time or period associated with this 4th kingdom. So this might be a more concise list of actors and issues to take away form Daniel 2 with a focus largely on the 4th kingdom. Without any other interpretations from later chapters in Daniel or other books of the Bible, we should be able to get some good understanding regarding this 4th kingdom.... we will NOT be able to get ALL the answers but this is necessary as well. If you are still willing and interested, would you mind using the above information (a through e) above and offer your thoughts on them / their identity? Thank you and I look forward to your response..... or anyone who cares to weigh in.... I am sure I will be leaving some things out or miss some actors or events within each "carve out verses"..... Charlie

Diaste, please note there was NO offense intended at all with my response but I am on that side of the fences on this issue...... best wishes always, Charlie

Thank you SONshine ! First, if you do not mind, you have this Stone correct in that it represents Jesus at the end of time and He will destroy all man’s kingdoms. But there is nothing in chapter 2 that speaks of a NWO— IF that is true then it MUST be determined somewhere beyond chapter 2 and maybe even from verses in Revelation. So, this you do not know... at this time. You are right in that the iron and clay can not mix ... what is telling you this is “of a later day image”? I can not see that here in chapter 2... Also, what in this chapter is telling you it is “political”? And remember, you can not access Revelation or any other chapter in Daniel at this time. Again, this information is not found in chapter 2... you are bringing in interpretations perhaps from Revelation... we are only reading chapter 2 as though it was just given to us... So here we begin to learn this 4th kingdom will develop problems within its structure. The legs of iron are in or at the beginning of this kingdom- terribly strong and can withstand just about anything one could throw at it. If we assume it represents Rome then it makes sense - Rome certainly used iron extensively, their two iron legs represent at least two things: they would “walk” over all the known world conquering everyone and their iron legs would crush them without any feeling whatsoever.. they would and did just use those powerful iron legs to stamp down on everything and everyone... But this can not last... as time moves on (still pagan Rome) we see in this chapter these iron legs will end in a feet and toes mixed ... symbolizing they Rome) must be getting weak and break down- it would no longer have a pure iron empire. So, of the characteristics given in chapter 2, the “bracket” mentioned above, the understanding that the 3rd kingdom was Greece, who do you believe is this 4th kingdom? And we still have no idea who the 10 toes are... it is not there yet. Please let me know if this makes any sense to you and please offer your thoughts and questions before chapter 7. Charlie

SONshine, I will be happy to discuss 11 with you or anyone but I just want to remind you of my posts throughout the past 2 months are fairly clear...... (hopefully). In any event. chapter 2 shows the 4th kingdom as the legs of iron and feet and toes of iron and clay. This kingdom comes after Greece and is the last kingdom on earth prior to HIS second coming (stone will destroy this entire image of Daniel 2). So, we have more than a few actors in this final kingdom to identify, but at this time we might agree that we only have two identified. These two easily actors actually "bracket" this 4th kingdom ---- If the "beast" is the first actor we can identify and the "Stone" is the last actor we can easily identify (second coming of Jesus), we now know this 4th kingdom must also exist for some 2,000 years or so. So within this "bracket" we also find we need to identify: the toes, the reason for the change from all iron (legs) to the feet and toes of iron and clay. Also, it is important to keep in mind the 10 toes .... these are important as well. So, before we move on the chapter 7 where Daniel gives us a different set of symbols, I would ask if you might let me know if this image in chapter 2 tells us anything more about the 4th kingdom OR I left something out that does require us to address - BUT YOU CAN NOT CHEAT AND GO TO CHAPTER 7 ...... Charlie

I certainly agree with that! But that happens st the end of the age / times with His second coming. After the 3rd kingdom of Greece comes this 4th kingdom.... For me this is clearly pagan Rome. So, pagan Rome or this “beast” as it is called in chapter 7 must come after Greece AND continue on (but in many different forms) until He returns- some 2,000 years. Consequently, there is a lot of activity that takes place within this long period. So, the real question is not who this 4th kingdom is but exactly WHEN it arrives and what verses in 11 are talking about- who and what period are these verses applicable to? In my recent response, I stated the verses in 11 have been written to people living in 3 different time periods. And if you were to take the characteristics and practices of this 4th kingdom that are mentioned in 2, 7 & 8 they will assist us in unpacking just who, what and when the verses in 11 speak about. Remember, Daniel is a prophetic book and as we move through the chapters in Daniel we find he is given further information on those images and symbols mentioned in early chapters. We are quite familiar with God’s method of expand and enlarge. Meaning, He is expanding our knowledge of the actors and events for the 4th kingdom from 2,7 & 8 within chapter 11 and 12. The chapters prior to 11 have not “opened up or enlarged” our understanding of the 4th kingdom so it MUST happen in these last two chapters and cover some 2,000 years - and it does! So the key to 11 is to identify who are the actors that must be understood (from 2,7 & 8), and then what time period the verses they belong to... but once you know the actors you will also be able to place them in the appropriate time period and match them to the verses in 11. That is why I asked you if f you would not mind identifying the actors / events found in chapter 2 - to start... and slowly move through Daniel but just focused on this 4th kingdom. SONShine, chapter 11 is a MONSTER and THE most difficult chapter to interpret- it is IMPOSSIBLE to interpret 11 in a secular manner- today’s accepted interpretations...they may seem to match some actors and events in our history books but it fails miserably as we move through 11. If we step back and ask ourselves just what or why is God having Daniel write this book I think everyone would agree it is NOT to serve as a history lesson for us, and where the most important kingdom (4th) where the most important actors and events will EVER happen are not to be addressed / mentioned / interpreted / prophecized, etc. Do we really accept that MOST of 11 is about a few minor actors and conflicts BEFORE the 4th kingdom arrives, and ignores the Messiah, His rejection from His people, the coming little horn, the transition from pagan to papal Rome and ALL the blasphemous acts he would do and enforce and also corrupt God’s Word over the next 2,000 years? If these are not discussed or revealed in Daniel’s last two chapters then where are discussed? Unless we are willing to see if 11 and 12 might be interpreted in a “Messianic/ His Plan of Salvation” manner and not try to interpret or match 11 to our history books, we will never see HIS prophetic message in Daniel for this 4th kingdom... and this has a strong effect on how we interpret Revelation (which is also a mess). Since there are only a couple of folks here that are responding (and mostly yourself thank you!), you might want to walk through this 4th kingdom in Daniel one question at a time... Thanks again and Happy Sabbath, Charlie

I am going to have to say a big NO to that..... it is that Daniel 11 has been grossly misinterpreted and has failed to reveal its intended prophetic message - that is it! I would ask if you would go to Daniel 2 and consider those verses that are meant to identify and speak about the 4th kingdom..... Just considering chapter 2, what do those verses try and tell us who the 4th kingdom is? Charlie

Sorry Diaste, I think he's got a point here...... or two, no, three.... yea, I am sure there are three..... Charlie

Now you do know that is the same story he had given to his wife... I also know that man .... I just happened to be in the same elevator with him that evening. He was completely drunk and kept pushing the wrong buttons - up and down we went for 10 minutes..... he kept saying this has got to be hell... I want out of here. Then we got to the 10th floor, the elevator door opened and I kicked him out and told him " the next time I see him I will kill him.... your lucky to be alive". The elevator door closed and that is the "true story". Now, is that a parable or a story? It's in the Bible! Charlie

SONshine, I sincerely want to thank you very much for taking the time and consideration in responding to this very, very difficult chapter in Daniel. There have been a lot of views but very few responses....... I am quite sure this is the result of most have accepted and are convinced that today's interpretations are quite accurate, and / or my responses are simply inadequate, and I have continued to fail in my delivery (especially since this is a new approach). So, if you decide you might like to comment sometime later...... whenever, I would certainly welcome your post...... and I do apologize for causing you any discomfort with my thoughts or responses. Thank you again and best wishes always, Charlie

Thank you again SONshine... all terrific verses but if we might slow this down a little bit and discuss just who and why is this 4th kingdom? Charlie

No! There is no need to... IF Daniel was written while he was in Babylon, and it was, then we can / should be able to see / determine certainly the first two kingdoms- he was there for the first two— do you agree with that? Now Daniel was not alive when Greece conquered the 2nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians, but we know they did conquer them, right? We don’t have to confirm this from ANY book in the NT do we? Consequently, we can conclude from this that AT LEAST the first 3 kingdoms of Daniel’s metal man image in chapter 2 are relevant and meaningful to ALL Jews living prior to and up to the coming of the Messiah- agree? So when those living- let’s use Paul as an example... Paul would have definitely understood that Greece was the 3rd kingdom, right? Meaning the book of Daniel is MEANT to be understood (so far) by Paul and his colleagues (up to the 3rd kingdom). AND Paul who was living under pagan Rome at the time would have a choice regarding who the 4th kingdom is or was- he would perhaps find it was indeed the same kingdom he was living under (Rome), or he may have come to the realization very similar to today’s accepted interpretations- post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome.... But this tells us at least three things: 1) prior to the coming Messiah we can ONLY guess what Paul thought the 4th kingdom to be, 2) that EITHER way you interpret 11 (today’s secular approach or what I am professing -a Messianic approach), chapter 11 is meant to be interpreted by Paul and those of his time. In other words, either Paul is aware of those historical events that took place BEFORE his birth (perhaps the first 28 or so verses in 11), OR, the verses in 11 apply to the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome when he is alive, And therefore, these verses are meant to a 1st century audience, and very specifically, the Jews and their coming Messiah!!!, and, 3) if we look / read the writings of the Gospels and certainly Paul’s writings, we clearly have the answer to 2) above—- In the NT Paul clearly realizes Daniel is speaking of the Messiah, His crucifixion, the rejection of Him by the Jews and so on! His writings are all about the Messiah and NOT some minor actors and events of AE or the Ptolemy’s or Berenice or Syria, etc. The book of Daniel has 3 separate periods or audiences to attend to - all or each is necessary to slowly move us through Daniel and through time. 1st audience - is the period Daniel lives in and even up to Greece (Daniel does not spend much time or “ink” on Greece though... 2nd audience - this would be for the Jews of at least the 1st century. There is enough detail in Daniel for them to expect and realize the kingdom, the time, the place (along with other prophetic verses found in Isaiah or Jeremiah for example), of the coming Messiah- and they certainly were aware of His soon coming- they just could not possibly recognize Him coming in a plain manner- they were expecting a King David like figure! 3rd audience- this would mean that Daniel speaks to another audience from His first coming through the next 2,000 years. 11:4 ends the Greek comments of the 3rd kingdom and 11:5 onward speaks about the Messiah and the actors of the 4th kingdom identified in Daniel’s chapter 2 metal man image- to His second coming. That is a lot but that is why I would like to take 11 very slowly and verse by verse as opposed to try and argue or discuss all Daniel at once and how they may or may not “fit” with NT verses especially Revelation... This is why I mentioned that Daniel can and must be interpreted on its own - the Jews would not have the NT for a reference YET it must be one of Daniel’s most important audiences. Charlie

I agree with you... and that is my point in understanding 11.... it is not a summary of some secular history involving AE or the Ptolemy empire or Berenice, etc. It is speaking about His first coming and those events and actors surrounding this very special time in history and all through the next 2,000 years... Charlie

SONshine, these are ALL wonderful verses and require our understanding but, if you do not mind I just responded to your earlier post and would like to take this discussion one issue or verse or interpretation at a time and THEN we will learn where and why we depart in our thoughts on 11... Charlie

Iamlamad, now you know that Lazarus is a parable and not a real event.... ? This has been a very interesting topic on its own recently.... Charlie

First, I want to apologize for my stubbornness in not agreeing with the above but I do agree with you that your views are in the majority- mine- I can assure you I am alone with them! If you do not mind I would like to try and discuss with you ONE interpretation at a time... your response addressed many issues and included verses in the NT as well. So, if I may... you started with Nebuchadnezzar which is perfect! He had the vision of the metal man image- for me, they represent the 4 kingdoms where Babylon is the 1st and the head of this image. Do you agree with that? Then the 2nd kingdom is the chest and arms which represent the kingdom of the Medes-Persians. Do you agree with that? The 3rd kingdom conquered the Medes-Persians and is identified as Greece (Alexander). Do you agree with that? I will await your response but I will ASSUME you have agreed with those 3 above... if not, we will have to discuss further. But here is where the conflicts and disagreements begin- the 4th kingdom. The very first thing to come to terms are for understanding 11 is just who is this 4th kingdom.... I have given my thoughts on why and who this represents but STAYING WITHIN DANIEL, what is telling you who and why is this 4th kingdom? I will stop here and await your response, thank you again for your patience, Charlie

Thank you William! I have read this and many other very similar secular historical interpretations that are identified with these verses.... but as I mentioned a few times, I really don’t believe God had Daniel give us some history lesson on some folks living post 3rd kingdom/pre-4th kingdom and have NOTHING to offer to Daniel’s chapter 2 metal man image and their characteristics, or to His chapter 7 symbols of a great beast, 10 horns, a little horn and THEIR purpose and prophetic meaning that SHOULD and MUST point us to the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation - this is why I created this topic / post. I read all of this historical “matching”or their attempt to identify all of 11’s verses but they fall so short, lose their integrity as they continue on down through Daniel and most important, they have nothing to do with 2, 7 and 8. God has given us 3 separate images/symbols and their characteristics along with progression, patterns, comparisons and differences WITHIN each kingdom (as they move from east to west-(2 to 7 to 8), and also THROUGH the movement of each kingdom (a north to south - 1st to the 4th kingdom). There are so many “things” to follow and compare and learn about as we read from 2 to 7 to 8! These are not only “things” to identify and interpret but they are also our RULES and CONSTRAINTS to follow so WE can stay on the PROTHETIC path God gave to Daniel which would be used to see HIM clearly and not some minor actors and events that SEEM to match with OUR history books. Once again, I read all these scholarly interpretations, and there is no shortage of those talented folks that have also signed their name on the line (John Hancock like), to this “secular” interpretation but none of it belongs in our understanding and interpretations of Daniel! The most important kingdom in Daniel is the 4th where EVERYTHING WILL TAKE PLACE- EVERYTHING! It will or MUST speak to the Messiah, the Jews, their rejection, their desolation, the coming church, the little horn .... and all the “things” THIS little horn will do over the next 2,000 years until HIS second coming! Daniel 11 and 12 ARE the only two chapters remaining in Daniel where all of this MUST be given to us, AND IT CERTAINLY DOES, but we have to leave these folks in our history books where they belong and try and see OUR Messiah within the 4th kingdom and those events and actors that meet or keep with HIS prophetic method found in 2, 7 and 8 - not just a stand alone attempt at matching some actors to a time or period .... Again, this is my interpretations of 11- because these secular interpretations did not work at all for me when I tried to understand 11. I literally read 11 some 100 times verse by verse and comparing them to these scholarly interpretations- the more I tried to see their interpretations the more I came away feeling it was all wrong (too many holes within their own timelines, forced “matching” of verse to actors, incomplete “matching” where historical events had no relationship with verse, verses completely unaddressed since they could not be “matched” to these same actors or events, no integrity of timeline, no integrity of storyline or actors.... God is NOT a confusing or confused God. He has given us the first 3 kingdoms with great detail in 3 different ways and of course with perfect accuracy. He has been COMPLETELY consistent with those 3 kingdoms from 2 to 7 to 8.... why would He stop His prophetic message and METHOD with the 4th kingdom? He would not! It took me 7 months to begin to see His METHOD or pattern WITHIN chapter 11... it required me to completely eliminate EVERYTHING I had just read about all of the interpretations (that so many contend are so, so accurate to the times of AE, the Ptolemy’s, Berenice, Egypt, Syria, etc.). It was so difficult for me to think I should ignore all the work and effort of these truly scholarly people who had (supposedly) made chapter 11 so easy to understand- I didn’t have to unpack or break down 11 as I had to do for the earlier chapters- it was all done in meticulous detail - but it wasn’t!! Seven months after I started I threw their interpretations away and simply asked God to show me what He wants us to see in 11.... most difficult assignment or task I have EVER had on my life!!!!! But He dragged me along kicking and screaming all the way.... so complicated and confusing UNTIL it was not. So, I wanted to post this topic (just 11) and take a few verses at a time and BEGIN to go down this path or method or “approach” and get everyone ‘s thoughts and opinions... YOUR response is exactly what I expected since it reflects almost all of the accepted interpretations of 11. But I am ASKING for you folks to possibly consider a different “approach” in interpreting 11- away from the secular and in keeping with 2,7&8 AND a Messianic interpretation. Charlie

Good point! But I what makes you think I am walking up your steps to kick you in your shins? Hey, I am just delivering a pizza within 30 minutes....... Do you have any idea how many times I have been kicked in the shins because those guys back at the pizza parlor forgot the pepperoni? Did you NOT read Josheb's previous response about forgiving 7 X 7 times? Please consider: “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven (probably trying to refer to PapaJohns), hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread (could be interpreted as pizza.....). 12 And forgive us our debts (forgot pepperoni of course), as we also have forgiven our debtors (many don't give us tips). 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (traffic)’ 14 For if you forgive other people when they shin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their shins, your Father will not forgive your shins. Don't know how you could miss this.... Charlie

Thank you very much again for your thoughts on Daniel 11..... There has been only a couple of responses so far regarding the first 6 verses but this is also a very complicated verse (for me) to interpret. Let me ask you if you might consider the "AoD" is the act of crucifying the Messiah - the most abominable / terrible / horrific act in man's history? Did not His crucifixion (His sacrifice) end all animal sacrifices? Did it not cause the desolation of Israel, it's people and Jerusalem? Did not Jesus Himself declare, as The High Priest prior to His execution the Sanctuary / Temple was indeed unclean and "made His Father's House a den of inequity"? I believe almost 100% of the interpretations, and of course those that lead up to this verse after 11:4 contend they speak of a secular power / ruler, AND in the time of AE and the Ptolemy's, but for me, the only way chapter 11 works and is truly prophetic is if were to speak about the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation. Which is the sole reason for my posts concerning Daniel 11 - they are NOT to be interpreted in a secular manner but to the coming Messiah, His crucifixion, the rejection by His people, the punishment of His people, the coming of the "little horn" who would claim to be god on earth, speak against God Himself, corrupt His Word and Plan of Salvation, the transition from pagan to papal Rome..... so on. Do you think (maybe) we might try to look for HIM in 11 and interpret this chapter in a non-secular way? Would like to hear your thought on this if you do not mind? Once again, (my opinion), I have a very real problem accepting that Mark would be referring to a "secular" event (which, if you interpret chapter 11 to include AE or the Ptolemy's and push much of 11 into the future with a anti-christ figure), rather than the Messiah ----- especially in the Gospels! Aslo once again, just my thoughts here! Thank you SONshine once again for your thought and response and hope to continue to hear back from you on Daniel 11 and other topics... Charlie

Ah, that slippery slope! Let us remember...... Whoever conceals their shins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy. “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your shins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. “You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you.” “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your shins.” “Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose shins are covered.”