Cntrysner

Hello again, @Retrobyter Again as I have shown you before, the words of Christ spoken by the apostles is what would baptize (immerse) into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost we become one with them. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The words of Christ which is the word of God now has the power of the Spirit and it has nothing to do with sinful flesh. I ask you, do you think one can cleanse their flesh and make it acceptable to a Holy God when it is nothing but dirt? Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Keeping water baptism which was for remission of sins is the problem, it was not a picture of something that would happen or already happened but it was a required act to receive remission. Christ is the truth and the life and He gave us a new message for remission of sins via the new testament in His blood (Mat 26:28) ( hear Him). Most reject His blood or dilute it with water to cleanse their filthy sinful bodies making His blood ineffectual, this is what Paul was conveying. 1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not withwisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. One fact is this, Christ did not use the word water in His commission to the apostles. He was going to ascend and send His Holy Spirit to back up His words. You are arguing for two baptisms when Paul clearly stated there is only one. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Negative, what you are doing is keeping and old testimony for remission of sins “repent and be baptized in water for remission of sins“. If you want a clean conscience before God believe in the sacrifice of His son and that only His blood has the power cleanse man and if we believe in His resurrection we will have a clean conscience. 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. How can one believe this is a reference to water baptism? The ark represents Christ who now is our salvation if we are in Him and Noah did not get wet. The ones that got wet were destroyed. Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Water baptism prepared priests to recieve the sacrific and they were to kill it and apply the blood. Again, water baptism was not and is not a picture of salvation.

Continued from above.... John understood his water baptism of repentance for remission of sins could not purify but through their obedience to it and accepting Jesus as messiah they would receive remission of sins (Joh 3:25-28). Many where saying that John was the messiah (the Christ) and the Baptist knew that he and his message must decrease (Joh 3:30) to avoid division as seen later with water baptism for remission (1 Co 1:10-23) so that Christ and His message in the new testament (testimony) for remission of sins could be exalted. In Christ all things become new (2 Co 5:17) and we should listen to Christ not man whether it be the Baptist or apostle unless it lines up with the words of Christ (Mat 17:5). The Baptist was a great witness to the coming of Messiah but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John (Mat 11:11). John’s message of obedience to water baptism for remission granted admission into a earthly kingdom but we who have been baptized by the Spirit of Christ into His body have a higher calling that is not of this earth. Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Gentiles are not under ceremonial law and that is a realization.

Israel under the law were to be a nation of priests (Exo 19:6) in their promised coming kingdom and water baptism was a required purification ritual to enter the kingdom. John the Baptist prepared Jesus and Israel to be priests with water immersion. The nation of Israel rejected their messiah and became not God’s people and the Kingdom was put on hold (Act 1:5-8). Water baptism was Israel’s testimonial witness to accepting the Messiah and the earthly kingdom and the Baptist and Peter called it a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Luk 3:3, Act 2:38). This water baptism is no longer required because the kingdom is on hold and there is no more remission by performing the act. John’s mission was over once Jesus was made manifest to Israel (Joh 1:31). Christ gave us a new message for remission of sins in Mat 26:28 “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins“ which superseded John’s message for remission. Christ’s testament is like a last will and testament where in all you have to do is believe it and receive it and it is not a covenant where one is required to perform an act or work to receive it. To be continued...computer acting up

Yes but it is referring to the word of Christ who is the Word. Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Yes, John did truly baptize in water. Please explain in your own words what you are trying to convey. I did not intend to thus the parentheses and different color. They believed the kingdom would be restored at that time which was false. Act 1:5... but-adversative or continuative Act 1:8.. but-contrariwise Joh 5:34.. but-adversative or continuative Joh 5:36..but-adversative or continuative Got to go again..busy remodeling my home.

You would have a better argument if you used Christ's words to understand His meaning not a eunuch requesting water baptism. The Spirit did not command Phillip to water baptize. You need to understand that Christ is that Spirit. Sorry, you are wrong again. Baptism is definitely required for salvation and it is an operation of God by the Spirit. There is only one baptism today as Paul said, why don't you believe it. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, To be continuied.. I don't think I'll have enough time to keep up with you..

The commission right before Christ ascended and some supporting scripture. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. The commission was to teach and the teaching (words) of the gospel would do the baptizing no need for water. Eph 5:26.. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Christ is including baptism with believing as a requirement for salvation and it is not optional. Notice at first it says believeth and is baptized then it just says believeth not leaving out baptized. Clearly this is Spirit baptism an operation of God not a water baptism which is a work of men. Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. If you believe remission of sins is through His finished work as the gospel teaches then you are baptized by the word. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Act 1:8 But(on the contary) ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. What was Christ’s witness? Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. Joh 5:34 But (on the contary)I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. Joh 5:36 But (on the contary)I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) The living water is the word of God and only it can wash clean a dirty sinner and it is Spirit baptism. Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up (glorified); and a cloud received him out of their sight. After Christ's ascension God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to do the baptizing and the apostles were instructed to wait for the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

@Retrobyter This statement so true but many believe they must do good works to earn salvation because it is difficult for man to live without laws or ordinances to measure their goodness for all to see. Many have the wrong picture of water baptism and believe it does have efficacy toward salvation and in doing so they have voided the free gift of salvation. If water baptism is just a picture of your justification why not do away with it if so many get the wrong picture? 1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Retrobyter, Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Oh yes, we truly have been raised with Christ as the word of God (Col 2:12) says. It’s a matter of faith in the operations of God. Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. The natural man can not understand the things of God who sees things as they spiritually and truly are. Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things (summons) which be not as though they were (truly are). 1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Hello Retrobyter, I enjoy reading your post. How does Romans 6:2-7 support water baptism is a picture of our baptism into Christ? Clearly Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism which has nothing to do with water immersion but is an operation of God by the Spirit not a operation of man. Col_2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Before John the Baptist, Jews under the law of Moses were practicing ritual immersion in the form of entering into a mikveh for purification from sin before entering the temple. John’s baptism in the river Jordon for sin remission was nothing new and it meet all requirements under the law (Mark 1:3-4). We know the death of Christ freed us from the law if we believe. Mar 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. When Jesus speaks of baptism in Mar 16:16 it is baptism by the Spirit which He will perform as John said He would do. All we have to do is believe in Christ. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Christ ascended and the Father sent His Spirit so that we might receive eternal life through Him. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Co 3:17) from the law, ordinances such as water baptism, and man’s obedience in works of righteousness. The answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21) is to believe in the resurrection of the ascended Christ and His Spirit in us will do the rest.

Mr. M Baptism in water would be a righteous work and we know it's not by works of righteousness. We now have the Holy Spirit of the ascended Christ that freed us from works of righteousness for salvation. Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. From G1658; freedom (legitimate or licentious, chiefly moral or ceremonial): - liberty. Christ Jesus by the Spirit baptizes us into his body superseding the need for water baptism. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. The drinking of the Spirit cleanses the spirit of man on the inside where it counts. Eternal life is received by the obedience of one so the gift of righteousness may be free (without man's works of righteousness). Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thanks for your response Mr. M. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: The verse clearly says this baptism saves us and you stated water baptism is efficacious which would mean the act of water baptism saves . Do you believe water baptism is required for salvation? A better understanding of this baptism would be to not add the word water to the verse.

Mr. M What result was produced by water baptism if it has efficacy or was it just a witness of something far greater?

Here's some scripture to ponder... Christ the Wisdom and Power of God 1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.