AdHoc

You have made some mistakes. The subject of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit. "By which" refers to the Spirit, not Christ. If we were to write it less elegantly, we would write the verse, and bring in 2nd Peter 2:5, like this; "Christ slain, but made alive by the Spirit, BY WHICH (SPIRIT) Noah (inspired by the SPIRIT) preached to the spirits who are now in prison." Hades is for the SOULS of Men. Tartaroo is the correct word, not "hell" in 2nd Peter 2:4 and the subject is angels - which are spirits (Ps-104:4) 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartaroo and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Our Lord Jesus rested in Hades (Rev.14:13). He did not preach to anybody. The Holy Spirit raised Him up - the same Holy Spirit that inspired Noah to preach while he built the Ark. Part of his preaching was directed at the angels who broke with God Who did not allow them to marry. These angels are now in Tartaroo which seems to share the same "Abyss" to Hades. But they are two different places. Hope this helps.

With the greatest respect and in the most friendly way, may I now point out that you didn't answer my questions. You launched into an explanation why heaven was not heaven, and then answered a matter that I didn't even address - whether Elijah is still live or not. This, of course, is your right and freedom, and I understand that you cannot allow heaven to be heaven because you have taken a position on John 3. But I hope that you understand that if you take heaven to be heaven in one verses and not the other nobody can have a meaningful discussion. The Hebrew word used by the Holy Spirit is consistent throughout the Old Testament, whether it is where the thunder comes from, or where the Most High God dwells. For the second part of my request, the awkward grammar of John 3:10-13, you ignored. It is our duty, if two verses seem to clash, to reconcile them, not change the meaning of scripture or its words. I may not judge, but I may respectfully withdraw on the basis that we do not have common ground for our discussion.

If you agree, I'll wait till be have thrashed out the first point. Also, its nearly 3 a.m. here - long past an old man's bed-time. I'm turning in now, so you have time to consider. Good night brother.

You refer, no doubt, to John 3; 10 ... Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Before I give my understanding, to save me an hour of writing if you do not agree with scripture (for then we have no basis for communion) can we agree on the following: 1. Scripture, in plain language, says that Enoch was "translated" and Elijah was taken to heaven? (Heb.11:5, 2nd Ki.2:1, 11) 2. Jesus said "we" in verse 11 above 3. Verse 13 implies that Jesus had already ascended 4. Verse 13 implies that he was then (present tense) in heaven, though He was on earth talking to Nicodemus Thanks.

No. You are correct. Thanks. It was Revelation 19:20; 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.(Rev.19:20).

I know that this is widely taught in Christendom. And I don't expect you to change your mind, but consider that there is not a single verse promising heaven for the dead, nor is there a single verse showing dead men in heaven. LIVE MEN - Yes, like Enoch and Elijah, but dead men ... no.

You've addressed a most important theme. The parables of Matthew 13 show the development of the Kingdom during the Church age. The woman leavens the "whole" lump. One thousand years of the Bible locked away and Roman Catholic doctrines and traditions took its place. Even the Reformers did not question it - this matter of going to heaven. It is so deeply embedded in Christian thinking that, exactly like leaven, you cannot get it out. And so, when 1st Corinthians 15 is on the curriculum, there is an uneasy shuffling of feet and no questions are forthcoming. But let us look at human life and death. In Genesis 2:7 God makes man. Isaiah 43:7 expands. Man's body is "formed" (yatsar - Heb.), his human spirit is made (asah - Heb.) of God's vitalizing breath, and man's soul is created (bara - Heb.). From then on, the Bible treats the man as a SOUL. At death, these three parts are torn apart. The body returns to the elements from which it was "formed". the spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7) and the SOUL of man goes to the heart of the earth to a place called Hades. After His death, or Lord Jesus gave UP the ghost (spirit) into His Father's hand, His body was laid in a tomb and His SOUL went to Hades. In Acts 2:24-34 you can see that our Lord's SOUL was not left in HADES while David was still there. The grand truth of the Bible is REBIRTH - the taking of God's nature and becoming a son of God with all its implications. But all this is brought to nought if the man languishes in Hades. You see, God had four purposes for man and all of them need a BODY. 1. man is a Vessel or Temple for God to dwell in to display His glory to the visible world. So our Lord Jesus, whose Body was God's Temple (Jn.2), says to Philip; "if you've seen me you seen the Father". 2. Our bodies are the members of His body (1st Cor.6:15). Without us in our bodies Christ has no expression on earth. 3. We are to be a "help meet" for Jesus. For this we must be "bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh - like Eve. And finally, 4. we must rulers of the physical Creature. Romans 8 says that the creature groans as it waits to be delivered into the hands of the RISEN Christians. So, in Mathew 16, when our Lord formally introduces His "Ekklesia" - His Church, He introduces only two things in connection with it. 1. The Keys of the Kingdom, and 2. that the gates of HADES (not hell) will not prevail against His building. Since the coming Kingdom of our Lord Jesus is to be ruled by men, hey desperately need to be WHOLE men. And Paul defines a whole man in 1st Thessalonians 5:23. A "whole" man is one whose BODY and SOUL and SPIRIT are joined. Resurrection is so important that death is placed as the last enemy of God to be subdued. And once again, the Savior is Jesus, Who, in context of the resurrection, "BECAME the Life-giving Spirit" (1st Cor.15:45). In verse 22 all men die. But IN Christ, all are made alive". "ALL"? Yes "all"! Those who go to the Lake of Fire, do so ALIVE (Rev.20:20).

I think I'll jump at the chance to get some insight, if I may. I'll first post the full text and then ask the question. It's out of Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them Almost all posters who ever post on Revelation ave the Magog/Gog rebellion at the end of this age. In the above text the grammar seems clear to me that the Magog/Gog battle at Harmon-Gog is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. Have I missed something. Added to the text is the fact that - one battle is at Armageddon while the last battle is a Harmon-Gog. - vultures feasts on the dead of one but after the other takes Israelites 7 month to bury the dead - during the 1,000 years reign the manufacture of armaments is banned, so primitive weapons are used at Magog - after landing on Mount Olives, our Lord enter Jerusalem through the east gate, showing that the wall is around Jerusalem. At Magog's time the cities of Israel are unguarded (unwalled) after 1,000 years of no war - a sword is the weapon of choice at Armageddon. At Harmon-Gog fire comes from heaven. the swords are used against each other - at the end of this age our Lord Jesus coes from heaven. At Harmon-Gog our Lord has been living in Jerusalem

Okay.... Thanks for the clarification ....

Almost. I find no scripture for the Jews believing. But I do find a National restoration of Israel with Emmanuel dwelling in their midst. Romans reads; 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Verse 25: Israel's blindness remain till the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Scholars dispute the meaning of this. Some say that it is Armageddon when God removes physical resistance by military might. Others say that it is until the last Gentile to convert does so. I say, it doesn't matter because at conversion you become a member of the New Man and there is no ethnicity in the New Man. If Israel converted there would be no Israel (2nd Cor,5:17, Gal.3:28, Col.2:11). Verse 26: "Saved" does not mean saved from the Lake of Fire. It means saved from God's displeasure, saved from the curse of the Law saved from their enemies, saved from the dispersion among foreign kings (as the prophets predicted). To strengthen this their "Deliverer" does not come from Bethlehem nor heaven nor Golgotha, but Sion, which is associated with rule and authority. To strengthen it even further this Deliverer does not give eternal life. He turns away ungodliness. Verse 27: Here we have the basis of this National recovery. Israel need to have their sins forgiven. There are three ways you can be loosed of your sins. 1 Somebody must pay for you and you believe in His work. That is, by faith. 2. You can be in a Covenant with a clause that absolves you of your debt by certain requirements. 3. You can be forgiven if you have someone pay for you and the creditor promises to forgive you. Now, we Christians avail ourselves of #1. This way we are in line for multiple blessings, like eternal life and sonship to God. The Jew, if he embraces Christ joins us in our privileges. But if he refuses Christ - as they have done - they remain in Covenant of Law. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 set forth the blessings and curses of the Covenant of Law. Deuteronomy warns of Israel's dispersion. Chapter 30 starts with the assumption that Israel will be dispersed and offers a remedy. Israel will be Nationally restored if they turn back to the Law whole-heartedly. No sonship to God or eternal life is promised. No entry to the Kingdom or transformation into the image of Christ, no hope of glory because of Christ in you are promised - for these are the wages of FAITH. But Romans 9:16-23 and 11:30-32 establish that God, with the debt paid by Christ for the "sins of the WORLD" (1 Jn.2:2), may have mercy on whom He likes. Israel is forgiven by COVENANT (Deut.30:1-5). But do Israel turn "whole-heartedly to the Law?" NO! THEY EMBRACE THE BEAST. But God is not naive. He does exactly what we have in Christ. Christ represented us on the cross. Noah represented the human race. The Levites represented the first-born and God would spare Sodom for ten righteous men. So, to save Israel at Mt. Carmel He keeps 7,000 men for Himself and for the recovery of a stiff-necked Nation he promises a REMNANT at the end of the age (Rom.9:27, 11:5). And do we find them at the end of the age??? Yes! 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:1-8. And how do we know that they are REPRESENTATIVE? Because in verse 4 of Revelation 7 says; And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of ALL the tribes of the children of Israel BUT DAN IS MISSING! Unless the great God of this universe can't count the word "ALL" should include Dan. In that it is still called "ALL" the Tribes shows that they can represent ALL Israel. God always did this. When only 2.5% of the captives returned from Babylon to fulfill His heart's desire, He calls them ISRAEL. But the 97% that stayed in Babylon do not even receive mention of God. That God is NEVER mentioned in Esther is a glaring condemnation. Well, I wrote more than I planned, and you certainly have some chewing to do. This is not taught widely, but I estimate that you'll give it a fair reading. What will help is to interpret scripture with scripture and see that the Olive Tree is not the Church. Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31 will show that a TREE IN PARABLE is a king and His kingdom. Israel are only grafted in when God has finsished the Church (Act.15:14-16) - for the Millennial age - and then they remain Israel - David's domain.

When a Christian embarks on a case to prove something he/she holds, it is normal that one deals with the arguments of the opponents. This, you have not done, rather calling them "children of the devil". So let me begin there. In the process of gaining biblical knowledge we start wit many false ideas. The Word of God calls them "babes in Christ" or "children of God". They are to grow. But the rebirth they experienced by the Holy Spirit is real. Just because a new Christian makes a mistake or is misinformed, it does not mean that his rebirth is to be attributed to the devil. To attribute the rebirth of a Christian to the devil is the unforgivable sin. In Matthew 12 the Pharisees attributed the casting out of demons to a servant of Beelzebub. The Servant (Christ) may be insult and the sin overlooked, but to attribute Beelzebub to the Holy Spirit is not to be forgiven - in this age, NOR in the next. You are living dangerously. Best is, if you want to make your point, is to give a good solid logical and scriptural argument and et the others decide on the doctrine. So now, to doctrine. You did not study the word "world". If you did you would have seen that the word "kosmos" in the Greek means "the adornment" or, "the orderly arrangement of things". It can mean the universe, the earth and the creature, and it can mean the present arrangement of things - the order of things. The context must tell. So when our Lord told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this WORLD He said in effect that His Kingdom did not have the arrangement of things that Caesar's did. That is, democracy, corrupt politicians, illegal favors and death. If you still maintain your position, you must explain why "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son ... (Jn.3:16), while at the same time we are admonished "LOVE NOT THE WORLD ..." (1st Jn.2:15). Besides this, you should have dealt with the following scriptures: God said in Genesis 1:26-28 that His purpose with man was to RULE the Earth, Sea and Sky "and all that is in them" God made a Contract with Abraham and his seed for a piece of Land, Canaan, for an everlasting possession God extended Abraham and his seed' inheritance to "the WORLD" (Rom.4:13) God promised a Kingdom that would replace Gentile rule (Dan.2:34-36) God promised that this Kingdom would "fill the earth" The inspired Psalmist set forth the area that man would rule in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 - where the cattle live The Lord Jesus prayed to His Father that HIS Kingdom WOULD (future tense) COME (to earth) The Lord Jesus set forth the reward for good Christians as to be KINGS of CITIES (Lk.19:17-19) The Lord Jesus set forth the reward for Overcomers as to rule the Nations (Rev.2:27) The inspired record says martyrs will rule with Christ The inspired record says that Jesus was tempted with "the Kingdoms of this world" (Lk.4) The inspired record says that these Kingdoms will become our Lord's Kingdoms (Rev.11:15) The Apostles are promised thrones over the Tribes of Israel (on their "everlasting possession") The inspired record says the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven The inspired record says that the saints will rule from this city on earth (Rev,22:5) Romans 8 says that creature groans waiting to be released into the hands of the risen saints) For a Christian making a case against God's Kingdom ON EARTH you should have dealt with these above. Is it fair to your audience to remain silent on these weighty scriptures? AS to your understanding of the "lively stones", why have you not explained why God's Spiritual House is made of "lively" stones. You would have gathered from John 1 and Jacob's vision of the ladder that God's House (Bethel) is built with men in resurrection, but that they must first be born again before they can but SEE the Kingdom, but to ENTER it a man must be also born out of water. You must explain why men in resurrection are raptured ONLY TO RETURN TO EARTH as Jude reports Enoch as prophesying. Then you should have explained why our Lord gave seven Parables in Matthew 13 on a Kingdom that has opposition sowers in the "field" which is the WORLD. Then you must explain why the merchant men "gave their ALL" for the WORLD? When you have dealt with the 16 or so points above, I will have another ten for you. But I am most interested to hear from you why God was unable to fulfill His plan with an in Genesis 1:26-28. I thought He was ALL MIGHTY. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! (Ps 8:6–9).

Good question. What do we do with a 45 year-old intelligent brother who is new to the Lord and holds some doctrines which are absolutely wrong? This will be a test for the others. I think that the main burden must fall on the mature ones. They must be prepared to let him be wrong for how ever long it takes for him to come round. If the doctrine in a crucial one, like the sinlessness of Christ, a few private visits by those brothers who know the word is the way. The lesson with Apollos can help. He was already an effective teacher but taught the wrong Baptism. This in turn had delayed the furnishing of the Holy Spirit to a whole Church and was a source of division in Corinth. The solution was not easy, for whatever reason (I may not judge our brother) Apollos refused Paul's invitation to have fellowship. Paul however saw that Apollos was a gifted member and asked that his journey be supported in Titus 3:13. Paul's handling of the situation is even more instructive when we see that in the matter of Barnabas and Mark, he was rock solid that Mark would not be up to the rigors of mission work. The Lord seems (at least to me) to have confirmed Paul because we never hear of Barnabas again. Paul made concessions to Apollos on crucial doctrine but was immovable in the practical matter of Mark. He was even aggressive when it came to the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5. A new Christian is called a "babe" by the Lord. Babies do in their diaper and we clean it up without a word. A 45-year-old man of the world can be quite formidable if he holds the wrong doctrine. It needs a lot of concession.

This has some speculation, I think, but I have, over the years, tried to explain this verse in 1st Thessalonians 5; 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. At some time the Gentiles will admit that things are looking good and cry "peace and safety". According to the verse it is even before the birth pangs. The Beast has three stages of fame. He is "revealed" in 2nd Thessalonians 2. He is given all political power at the beginning of the final "seven" and he is given religious sovereignty in the middle of the last "seven". As he comes out of the Abyss he will need an event on the world political arena to get known and to establish himself worthy of universal power. The one thing no politician has achieved is to get Islam to allow a Temple of the Jews to sit alongside the Al Aqsa. If some entity were to demolish Al Aqsa there would be the opposite of "peace and safety". So I "speculate" (let me be clear) that the sequence of events surrounding Daniel's 70th seven will be a political coup by the relatively unknown Beast which brings a temporary peace between Israel and Islam. This will be short lived as Christ opens the first four Seals and causes the "birth pangs" with wars and rumors of war. This gives enough time for the Temple (which I believe is ready to be erected right now) to be built and for the Beast to "strengthen" (lit. Heb.) THE Covenant which contains the Daily Oblation - the Law of Moses. I say this because there is only one Covenant on earth that has the daily oblation - that of Sinai. The next difficulty is why does Matthew 13 say that the Darnell is harvested first BEFORE the Wheat. Is not Armageddon after the Wheat is harvested in rapture? The answer is easy. For the Beast to claim himself God and to demand all worship, he MUST DESTROY RELIGION ON EARTH. And is this not what happens? It is not God Who destroys all worship but the 10 kings in Revelation 17. Thus, Matthew 13 is correct because the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares depicts counterfeit religion and not politics. The poiitico-military conflict is left to the end, but world religion has to go before the Two Beasts can command all worship. But if you find this impossible, please discard it

Nice posting. It's so good in fact that it hurts to add something. But would you consider revising the length of the Great Tribulation to 3½ years. Daniel gives the Abomination of Desolation in the middle of Daniel's seventieth "seven" leaving 42 months, 1260 days and/or a time, times and half a time for God's wrath.

Distinguished men indeed, but the word "denomination" shows the lateness of this admonishment. When I am not mistaken the primitive Church taught by Luke and Paul envisioned one Assembly per City or town with multiple meetings in houses. I am not naive as to think of reforming Christendom, but the consequences of veering off God's plan are dire. In Ephesians 4 we have TWO UNITIES: 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ The first unity is one already established by the Holy Spirit and must be kept at the cost of prominence. The second is that of THE Faith. I think this phrase is generally accepted as o mean "what we believe". But the point I wish to make is that if either the gifted ones are silenced, or the freedom to pass on what the Lord has given each saint. Note the word "TILL". It means that time will be needed to reach the second unity. In the modern Assembly, usually one man dictates the sequence and few are authorized to speak. There is no magic in the Church. The result of cancelling this way is stunted spiritual growth. But another catastrophic consequence takes place when the Unity is broken. In John 17:21 ... 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Disunity annuls the gospel. Implied is that without unity the world will not know that Jesus has come and was sent by the Father!

I too feel that the end of the age is drawing close. The "signs" are there. But the grand type of universal judgment, Noah's Flood, gives hint that we will still be caught unawares. We have to ask ourselves what 1st Thessalonians asks:- When are we gathered to Him (Jesus)? In Revelation 14 there are four harvests. A harvest does not depend on when somebody important comes. President Trump can visit the Dakotas and he can build his house facing the Great Lakes, but the harvest of this "breadbasket" of USA will only take place whe the farmer judges the firstfruit ready. That is, does the "Gathering of us to Him" depend on any signs. Christians are strange people. They choose a way of FAITH, and then spend all their energy on studying signs that are meant for Israel. Take Matthew 24:1-31 for instance. From the Temple in the opening verses to the gathering by angels of those dispersed to the "four winds" the whole context is Jewish. In Daniel the prophets writes in Aramaic from Chapter 2 to Chapter 7, indicating that the Gentles are addressed, but the crucial Revelation of Israel's future is in Chapter 9 and written in Hebrew. Christians study and dispute Chapter 9 - but it is clearly for "DANIEL'S PEOPLE". Is this a discouragement from studying Israel's future? By no means. But what does it help the Christian if Daniel's People see the Abomination of Desolation? We have insulted our God by basing our walk on Jewish prophecy. Our studies should not be based on knowing that Jesus will come back to earth seven years after a mystical politician is voted into universal political power by ten kings. We have been clearly told that we should have a WALK worthy of an sudden harvest. The Jew is predicted to see their Messiah, the One thy pierced, burst through the clouds like lightning. But the Christian is told of a stealthy THIEF who comes and goes without a sound. The Jew is warned to be found keeping the Law (Deut.30:1-5). He is warned about a Beast from the "people who destroyed the second Temple" - a Roman. He is warned of Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1) and great deliverance (Dan.12:2). That is, the Jew is to watch for EVENT while the Christian must "watch" in issues MORAL. You see, it is a harvest and being "taken" depends of ones MORAL CONDITION - RIPENESS. And you don't get ripe in a day! What use is it to have knowledge of the currency, the electronic monitoring of men and a mark on the forehead, when your in bed with your neighbor's wife or gambling the house-keeping away. If God told us the day, date and hour, it would be self defeating. The Christians could sin and sin up to a day before and then sell all their goods, put on a white sheet, and climb a hill. Surely the angels the Lord would not miss you standing next to the totem pole you've been worshiping on and off for a decade, and now, 24 hours before the rapture, you set it alight? NO! Knowing the date will stunt your growth! The first-ripe are taken first. Those NOT RIPE are left in the field to take more heat and dryness. But oh what a time to be left behind! Don't think I'm dreaming! The grand type is Noah - and he went into the Ark - BUT NOTHING HAPPENED!!! The others on earth near the ark hurried to their orgies tapping their skulls at Noah. Noah was in that Ark because of three things. 1. His generations were correct. His lineage was 100% mankind. No "sons of God" had copulated with the women in his lineage 2. He was JUST & RIGHTEOUS 3. He walked with God If Noah is a picture of the Christian escaping the universal judgment of God TWO OF THREE THINGS ARE UP TO HIM - NOT GOD. 1. Are you born again? Well and good, but this takes faith and God does the rest 2. But have you been just and righteous. In Romans 8 we are all "children of God" but a fully different word is used for those who are led by the Spirit. They are "sons" of God, a term used for a mature man who can inherit and manage his Father's goods. Did you forego that Mercedes Benz when God needed contributions to pair of evangelists going to the Congo? Did you fill in your income tax form correctly? 3 Have you walked the road Jesus walked? Are you "known" of Him. You think that a pre-tribulation rapture is guaranteed? Some very eminent scholars do. But Paul said it was a PRIZE in Philippians 3:14. It is a race that must be run, and this is not accomplished in a day. What is the use of twenty signs that show the rapture next Tuesday - WHEN YOU ARE NOT RIPE?

Here are your mistakes: You have no respect for the councils of God. He said that He made man for subduing and ruling THE EARTH. You deny that He is capable of this. You were unable to counter the scriptures I gave. You dismissed them without a case. Anybody can do this. Your statement "is nothing more than ... " shows what you think of scripture that doesn't fit your scheme. Our Lord Jesus does not come with fire and brimstone. He comes as lightning. he does not destroy the earth but sends angels to collect Israel. You ignore or manipulate grammar to suit your theory. 1st Corinthians 15:24 says; 24 Then cometh the end, WHEN he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The end only comes WHEN .... and verse 25 starts with "FOR" - giving the REASON. He must SUBDUE, REIGN, and the condition of the "end" is all men resurrected. This you blatantly leave out. The word "destroy" does not mean "annihilate". It means "lack of well-being" (Vine). In John 5 you wrest the grammar again. The word "all" does not pertain to all men. It pertains to ALL IN THE GRAVE. It is a certain "hour" when those left in the grave shall rise. In John 6 you ignore the word "AT". You failed to define "DAY". If you had taken it as a thousand years you would suddenly agree with dozen other scriptures. If there are twenty things happening in a day in scripture and there is obviously not enough time for it all, then you must discover WHICH DAY IS MEANT. You deny God's Word to Abraham which says that the Good Land of Canaan would be theirs "for an everlasting possession".

Physical EARTHLY Kingdom in Daniel 2:34-35 and Revelation 11:15 Physical EARTHLY throne in Matthew 25:31-46. Unless "ALL Nations" go to heaven Physical mortal people because a man who DIES at a hundred is reckoned as a baby (Isaiah 65:20). This is in context of verse 17 - a newly created earth. The word "new (chadash - Heb) means "renewed" or a "new king in a line of kings". Since there is no death on the New Earth of Revelation 20, it must refer to the "regeneration" of Matthew 19:28 - when the Apostles are ruling Israel by Tribe.

You deny the grammar of the Holy Spirit, and you deny His style of prophecy. If I wrote the following; "At the Superbowl 59 Philadelphia scored 6 points and then came the end", you would find no fault with it because Phili scored 6 points in the last quarter. I would be correct but i would not have told the whole story how they scored 40 points in total. Now my example might be poor, but 1st Corinthians 15:21-26 does just that. It is recording the sequence, or "order" of resurrection. Christ first, then "those who are His AT HIS COMING". Now, that sentence implies that there are some who ARE NOT HIS and it also implies THAT THEIR RESURRECTION IS NOT "When He comes". But verse 22 has assured us that ALL men will be resurrected, so by simple logic, those who are NOT His must be resurrected at later date. So the phrase "then comes the end" sets forth an undetermined period that these men remain in Hades and then comes the end. The end is defined when "Death is defeated" and that we know is after Satan, who has the power of death, is given over to the Lake of Fire - NOT when he is imprisoned for a (the) thousand years. Whether you accept the thousand years imprisonment or not dos not annul God's Word that Satan is first bound and imprisoned and then let loose and then stirs up a rebellion AND THEN is cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no other way to understand this but that there is a gap between the resurrection "of those who are His" and the White Throne. Whether or not you give God's value of THE Thousand Years, or you suck a value out of your thumb, the fact is there is a gap. And by the way, if scripture gives DIFFERENT TRUMPETS we must adhere to WHO they are for. In 1st Thessalonians and 1st Corinthians 15 the CHURCH is addressed. They have their LAST TRUMPET when they are gathered. They will never be gathered again. But Israel will feast the feats of Trumpets for 1000 years - annually. So in Matthew 24:31, when Israel are gathered, it is NOT the LAST TRUMPET. If scripture makes a difference we are to study why.

In Revelation 1:1 the Lord said He would show His servant in "signs". That is, we can expect real things to be given in the manner of a sign. The same word is used twice in John Chapter 2. The first, in verse 11 was the changing of water into wine and the second, in verse 18 was the change of of God's House from a physical temple to His Body. Now, if we consider all the facts of the changing of the water, a lovely but sad picture comes into sharp focus - that of Israel's future recovery. Israel reject their Mesiah-Groom and so for two days they must be chastised (Hos.6.2). On the third day of 1,000-year days they are visited by their Groom, but He is but a guest now. In Judges 9 Wine "cheereth God and man". But the Fig (Judah) is but sweet and God is not connected to it. Their garment (Leaves) is their works but Law cannot justify. This thought of the Law is strengthened by the Pots that, "purify the Jews". That it is for men is shown in 6 waterpots - the day of man's creation. But it might show something else - the purifying of the Law makes "empty" - and this especially for the "government" of Israel. Jesus refuses His mother as we see after the unforgivable sin is committed in Matthew 12. But He does not refuse Wine on the Third day - the day of Israel's recovery (Hos.6:2) - their general resurrection (Ezek.37) The wine is the "better wine"(Lk.5:39) because Israel's recovery introduces the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 - that of Law. The New Covenant is ratified by Christ's blood on Golgotha but put into action when the Two Houses of Israel become one (Jer.31:31-33). Israel is "cheered" because the appearance of their Messiah after 2,ooo years (two days) has caused "mourning" Besides the finished wine our Lord Jesus changes some 150 gallons/650 liters of water into "good wine" But besides the tragedy of missing their Groom, Israel must drink "old wine". In Luke Chapter 5 this signifies Law. Their wine is changed from water, showing the blessings of Law. The Believers drinks from the "True Vine" (John Chapter 15) - the one that the Father desires. Israel will show "Terrestrial glory" being the sand of the sea shore. The Church, being stars will show God's "Celestial glory" in the Millennium. Verse 11 shews this all to be a "sign" (semeion - Gk.) I think that if we approached Revelation like this, every literal thing literal, and every "sign" interpreted with scripture alone, we would all be a lot closer to each other - and the truth.

I'd like to compliment you on your thread. Through thick and thin you said your piece without getting emotional about the conflicts. Revelation is no easy book, but you had the courage to expound. Here is my take on Chapter 20 -off the cuff. The theme of the Bible is God's glory reflected by men in His likeness first subduing, and then ruling the earth, sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). Man's attempt to usurp this Kingdom is foiled at Babel. Except for about 880 years, the earth was ruled by men hostile to God - Gentiles. Matthew starts His Gospel with a new King - Jesus, and so we expect to find the new King and His co-kings to have prevailed. This they do so by Chapter 11:15. But co-kingship with Jesus is dependent not only on faith, but on a willingness to pay the price 1. of setting oneself aside for the things of God, 2. proving that one is a good steward of God's resources. That is, one must cooperate at ones expense to be QUALIFIED. Paul, teacher to the Gentile converts shows this arduous road in Philippians 3:9-14. There is a special resurrection ("ex-anastasis" - literally "resurrection out of the resurrection") that must be ATTAINED to. The price is your everything. Jumping forward to Revelation 20 we see the named changed to "FIRST resurrection". "Protos" in the Greek means either 1. FIRST in time, or, 2. FIRST in rank or importance. The men and women who ATTAIN to this resurrection literally lost their heads to gain another HEAD. They fall into three categories: 1. the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus 2. the souls of them that had been beheaded for the word of God, 3. the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands It is at once apparent that if Abel sacrificed according to God's Word, then these three categories encompass the faithful during the 6,000 years since Adam. The 1,000 years must be literal. It is plainly stated six times in six verses - unprecedented in the whole of scripture. But its literal value comes from Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4. God calls it a "future Rest". And in Hebrews ths REST is defined as the time that God's people occupy the Land. But not only is this "REST" defined there but close examination of of the first REST confirms the literal 1,000 years. In Genesis 1 the first REST is NOT defined by the "evening and the morning". It's omission is glaring. Rather, the REST is defined by the "DAY" within Adam died. If we interpret scripture with scripture, Adam failed to be in place for one "DAY", and Israel were ejected from the Good Land in less than 1 "day" of 1,000 years. Magog: At some time or another during accurate study of the Bible it will dawn on the student that God tests EVERYTHING. Even our Lord Jesus was tested almost daily, but notably in the Wilderness and in Gethsemane. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says that every man who came from Adam will be resurrected. The following 4 verses give the sequence. First Christ, then "those who are His WHEN HE COMES". That would be the Church and Israel. Then He must reign until all enemies are subdued. The last enemy is death and it is defeated when there are no more dead or deaths. Now, if the Kingdom is to be tested, it is only fair if it be under the conditions of the old earth. That is, summer and winter, harvest time and the nations, having not been resurrected can still die. But what is more important is that not being resurrected yet, they can procreate. The conditions of the Millennium ar very favorable, so the earth's population with increase exponentially. ALL BORN TO THE NATIONS IN THE MILLENNIUM WILL HAVE NOT KNOWN SATAN'S RULE. CHRIST'S KINGDOM MUST BE TESTED. This is God's purpose with man. It is His showpiece. It must withstand the worst. So Satan is released for a short season at the end of the Millennium and the Nations, still in the flesh (which is at enmity with God, are prime fodder for Satan's attempt once more to gain Jerusalem. Led by Gog and Magog, a huge rebellion takes place at Harmon-Gog. The slaughter is greater than Armageddon because God's honor and Kingdom are called into question. Thus, the weapon of choice is FIRE FROM HEAVEN unlike the SWORD at Armageddon. Hades is filled to the brim with the dead. Unlike Armageddon were the vultures gorge themselves, the bodies of the rebellious are buried to stop the process of a curse (by Law - Ezek.39:12). It takes 7 months. Now all enemies are subdued except death. Hades is full. The demons still occupy the sea, and the angels of Tartarus must be consigned to the Lake of Fire. God calls an assize. No Christians and no Jews are present. They were resurrected 1,000 years earlier. God now tests the old earth with His face alone. Satan's rebellion polluted heaven, and man's rebellion polluted the earth. God does not patch things up. He makes them new. The earth and heaven are purged - as the earth was by the flood. Nothing of the past except one thing remain on the surface. The Lamb. Truly, with such a hoard of dead, it would need God's effortless weapon against death. The last Adam BECAME the life-giving Spirit - 1st Cor.15:45. All men are resurrected.

Okay. I will answer this. The Lord Jesus is predicted to return to earth. Presently He sits sits at the right hand of His Father "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10). At some point our Lord Jesus leaves His Father's throne to receive His own. This happens in Revelation 4 in heaven. John is present. In Chapter 14 another company of men who were "firstfruits" are in the same setting. These are men who are children of God seeing as they have His name. So a loving meeting occurs in heaven with FIRSTFRUITS. The ten Virgins go out to meet the Lord. He delays. They die just as millions of Christians have done since the Apostles. A call goes out and they RISE and proceed to meet the Lord According to 1st Thessalonians 4 they meet the Lord in the clouds. That is, Jesus will spend some time of His downward journey hidden in the clouds. The raptured Christians face the "traveling throne of Christ" - the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). After judging the whole Church, which takes some time, Our Lord Jesus returns to earth FROM the clouds (Act.1:8). All the while the Great Tribulation is raging. AS the Tribulation ends (as you correctly said), signs of God's judgment, as predicted by Joel, are seen in the sky. Then, the Son of man burst through the clouds over mount Olives and saves Jerusalem. The Jews see Who has come through the clouds and mourn. The ensuing battle and ensuing judgment causes havoc on earth. Now, consider this, every verse you produced is fulfilled ACCURATELY - and I mean accurately. Look at your verses. Not one says anything about destruction of the earth. It is judged and scarred, but not obliterated. The Lord gets His own throne - the "throne of His glory" (Matt.25:31). The Virgins of Chapter 14 are raptured to heaven. They are first-ripe. They have the wedding garment, They are perfected before the Lord. Then the Lord halts His downward journey to judge the General Harvest of Christians IN THE AIR (1st Thess.4). Then, when millions of Christians have been judged, the Lord leaves the clouds to deal with Israel and the NATIONS. His throne is set up in Jerusalem and He judges the NATION of Israel and "ALL Nations". This scenario fulfills all your claims except 2nd Peter. But if you were to accept that Revelation 20 speaks of a "DAY" IN WHICH the Lord fights Armageddon, subdues His enemies and subdues death, all you would have to do is define that "DAY" as being "The DAY of God" and that would mean it was 1,000 years long. The position you hold would fit perfectly if you took the "DAY" of the Lord to mean 1,000 years. I'm sure you will consider this. Take your time.

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the second coming and end of the world, it will be the generation that will be eye witnesses of the second coming "Immediately After The Tribulation" "They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming" Matthew 24:29-30KJV 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The reader will note that you did not enter into discussion with me. I brought a cohesive argument, which could be right or wrong. You ignored it and went off at another subject. This is your right but you let my argument stand. But there is a worse effect of your failure to address the matter in the light of the whole Bible. You inadvertently make God impotent. Consider this: God says He made the earth to remain but you say he destroys it. Psalm 78:69; And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. Psalm 104:5; Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. Psalm 119:90; Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. 1st Chronicles 16:30; Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. Psalm 93:1; The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Psalm 96:10; Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously. Either God is omnipotent and His councils are sure, or we can pack up and jump off a cliff. God made man to subdue and rule the EARTH and its environs of sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). God has never changed His plan. He has confirmed it over and over. "thy Kingdom COME". "Thy will be done ON EARTH ..." and so on till Revelation 11:15. Your theory of Christ annihilating the earth is found in Sunday School books - but not the Bible. The Bible says that "God SO LOVED THE WORLD" that He gave His only begotten Son for it. He shed His blood for the earth (Rom.8) so that "it speaks better things than the blood of Abel". You've been shown proof of God's plan. Stop denying it by saying the words of scripture don't mean what they say. Israel turned their back on the truth and God gave them over to darkness. Don't let it happen to you. You've heard good arguments. Don't let Scofield's failed marriage cloud the truth. Peter wielded a sword in Gethsemane. Don't annul his Apostleship because of this.

I will examine your understanding a little more. It may have merit. Give me time.