tatwo

I completely agree Luigi...you are speaking in truth brother...however...the U.S. "is also" in this current predicament...the mainstream media and the utterly censored social or alternative media...are hiding it Brother...they are hiding it...and the good old U.S of A is fixen to to experience something that has never happened and it will be multi level when it happens....birth pangs on a woman in labor... While the world and the religious say...that conspiracy stuff on YouTube ain't real Luigi...lets go back to fighting about the righteousness of Israel as they do to Gaza what was apparently done to them by Hitler...only worse...and wait for the Lord to deliver us from any sacrifice we might be asked to make...and take us to heaven. You are right Luigi...collapse is upon the nations...I added the U.S...the economy of the beast is pressing those who "dwell on the earth"...for those who dwell in heaven...they have been given their own economy...its called the Kingdom of God. Does anyone hear the Lord today? Tatwo...:)

Well "said" Eddy... The truly bizarre reality accompanying the idea that the mark is physical or it is not here yet also says that the beast is not here yet. The concept of the realm of the invisible simply must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Redd..:)

What is the “good news”…and what exactly does it mean to “share” it? If that in deed is what is happening…then it “would” produce what Paul testifies to have happened when he was doing it? Does anyone here see anything close…today? I am attempting to answer that here Sower…there is little to none…qualified spiritual “fatherhood” among the church today. The church is run by orphans today…the orphans are leading it astray because they do not have a “Father” with which to identify as a “Son!”…nor do they have an access to an inheritance in their father…he is a liar. Tatwo...:)

Exactly…well did anyone expect? No apostles, few prophets, congregations and gatherings run by “shepherds”…the “leadership team” is void the essential “gifting, callings, anointing's”…that produce the effectual manifestations of the actual person of Truth…the presence of the Holy Spirit of the living God…dwelling in His house…? The picture you paint here Brother Sower is not that house…and there is only one reason why. Yes…while that is an incontrovertible truth…we must consider that when viewed from Paul’s depiction of the…“Body…that is to mature”…the step you are referring to here…”lost to saved”…is the “initial” step…the “beginning” step…as a “new born infant” in the Father of creations house. We are not “born again” as “mature sons” any more the Yahshua Christ was born as a fully mature son. Tatwo...:)

I understand you here…to some degree it shows where you are…may I ask how you feel about “specific or unique” calls, gifts and manifestations in relationship to the Body of Christ? I am thinking about what Paul wrote concerning the subject in at least a couple of places. 1st Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 where he specifies the operation and differentiation in…gifts, calls, and or manifestations…that are in “direct service” to the Body of Christ. Consider 1st Corinthians 12:4-7 for example…”Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” Things like…words of wisdom, knowledge…then there is faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, various tongues and interpretations…and there are more. The picture here as portrayed by Paul the apostle…is the Body of Christ being likened to a living and functioning organism…”A living Body.” It must have been a monumental priority for Paul in his journey, teaching and work. In Ephesians 4 he again calls out the specific “gifts” the Lord left to His Body at His ascension…apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds, teachers…and these are said to be “for” the Body…”our” equipping and building up until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Paul writes things like…”we are to no longer to be like children” and that we are to speak the truth in love…we are to grow up [spiritual maturity] in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ. It is in this…that the Head…Yahshua…the Holy Spirit…builds or “assembles” the whole body…which is being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies…according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. It’s a picture of the typical biological “birth to maturity” reality as I see it. How important to the Lord might it be for each one of His children/sons to know, understand, live and grow in to a “mature man” in His…the Lords “unique and divine intention” for them? How important might that be for each one of the “sons of God” to do the same? That is the picture Paul paints here of the “Body of Christ here on the earth”…is it not? If it has changed…where do I find the authority that has conferred this change? I can see that there has been a change…Sower you well know…huge change…by that I mean…where do you or anyone on these forums see “Paul’s version of Body” in action in your/their life? If you do/are… are you living there? I rarely if ever hear anything about that early style “church” today…why...why? I know why…none seem to care…but wasn’t that the point of the prophecy of the…“apostasy?” Tatwo...:)

Greetings Sower... Sure…that is a definition of “destiny or end.” However Sower…the verse you quote states we are “His workmanship” doesn’t that reflect His vision…interaction…instruction…involvement desire…love…intimacy…personally in our existence? Not merely a predetermined state or end that begins and then is left to run its own course? Let me try to explain… Later you state…”Growing in the word, called to be a carpenter, and the call to be a help through my craft to those in some need I could fill.” Sower…I am being somewhat ambiguous perhaps typical here if you will…general even…let’s look at the idea of “workmanship” and consider for a moment the “thing” that you as a “carpenter” may be “putting your hand or craft” to…“building/constructing”…for example…including anything you do. At some point early on in the project “perhaps” prior to even beginning it…in your mind’s eye there is a “blue print…picture…vision…idea or concept” of some sort…that likely gives you a place to start…with some element of the end result in view…it may include some goals or objectives along the way…and perhaps some element or vision of the completed “project”…can you relate? So there is some degree of the completed picture of the project that evolves in your mind that guides you through the unique steps of your “craft or skill set.” Where to begin…how to proceed…when to adjust…etc…you know what you are doing and trying to achieve and are driving at that in the duration of the project…and this based upon your skill set and passion…can we think of that as “workmanship?” If you are working for a “client” who wishes to utilize your skill and craft you must connect with them as to their expectation of the outcome. Then you…as the craftsman who’s “workmanship” will determine the final result…will be tasked with providing the vision…steps…process…answers…initially verbally…and it will be based upon “your” understanding of what “you” can do…what you ultimately do and see as the final result…no? My overstated point is this…Brother Sower…you…as the “craftsman”…will walk with your “client” step by step…closely interacting all along the journey with your “idea” of the project…focusing on what you perceive as a “shared and desired outcome” of the same. While you are driving at that completed fulfillment…that is to become the end product of this partnership and endeavor…that will be “your workmanship.” Bro…you know the process…a successful journey to completion is the key to a successful outcome…its via interaction…give and take, change, mistake, learning, overcoming, relationship, excellence, desire, conviction and so on. What I am saying is…”HIS Workmanship” is like that…only “HE is the craftsman” our destiny is HIS project…and He is as involved with us…as you are with the theoretical “client” I was speaking of above. Tatwo...:)

Friend...that is a large request really…altogether too big for right now… I feel like it is going well Koneckey…thanks for asking…I take that opinion from my Lord, family and friends. My call…? It’s been a “process” I see as happening something like this…my first “call” is to be “reconciled to God” and become a “son of God” by being called out of the kingdom of darkness and in obedience to His Word I was “born again of the water and Spirit.” Abba Father...I liken that to being “saved or rescued”…and then being placed in the Body of Christ…or temple/house of God. It is here that I find my purpose or as you asked “call.” That’s “salvation” as I define it…”changing fathers”…as I say from time to time…saved from the condemnation of the dragon and the wages of sin. It is an excellent experience afforded me and each of His sons…made available by the "Royal Priest" Himself. At that point I was a spiritual “infant”…you know excitedly bouncing around in the Kingdom of God in a state of “new birth excitement.” I have grown substantially in my spiritual maturity along the lines of what I have said prior…and have gained an even greater excitement...typically tempered with a deeper grace. Over time I “grew” a bit in the excitement of my new salvation experience…which included a fantastic miraculous physical healing I might add…the Lord grabbed my attention and began to show me the initial stages of who “He sees me as”…or who “He created me to be”…in Him…you know…that “eternal pre-creation intention” He has for me…the good works, which God prepared beforehand so that “I” would walk in them. I was apprehending these and beginning to learn obedience. Think for a moment Koneckey…the scenario of the Lord at the well in Sychar…when the disciples show up asking Him if He is hungry and He says this in response…"My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.” Again this speaks to the uniqueness or peculiarity of His “predestined call.” He knows He is the only begotten of the Father…the savior of humanity…the Lamb of God…which by the way…He would be the only one…ever…with that "specific call"…He knows what He has been sent here for…and while He is on the earth He is set on doing exactly what the will of His Father was for Him…He overcame everything…unto its "utter" accomplishment and fulfillment. He is who I see as my example you know…I am not there yet…however I am ever learning to do His will and to an increasing degree accomplishing His works...so that “I” may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Three months after I was “born of the water and Spirit” I was headed to the prisons of Southern California where I became a prison chaplain in three prison systems…and for the next 7 years I worked with 100’s criminals guilty of every offense and endless prison staff. It was early on in this venture that I realized that the Lord Yahshua Christ was clearly “reconciling” me to His “specific divine predestined” call. Inmates, guards, friends everyone in those 3 prison's and its environments learned of God's eternal passion for them...the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit was obvious to most. There were physical healings...souls were delivered of demonic spirits and emotions...100's of baptisms...and many son's were born unto our God in those days. There were a number of "assemblies" that came forth from that "work." I must not neglect to mention that my wife of nearly 40 years now...was right with me in all of this and she more than held up her end of the work. Reconciled to Him as my Father thus experiencing “salvation”…then being allowed to mature some…in my new “house with my new Father”…then being reconciled to “His personally desired will for my life” and the ever increasing illumination of how I was to accomplish these works. Salvation and then reconciliation to my call in that order… I’ll leave it at that for now and watch to see what responses you get…this should be interesting. Tatwo...:)

Nice…thanks for sharing…I am sure others will ask this also…”what is your call and destiny in your Father’s house?” Tatwo...:)

Greetings Koneckey, I agree that we are in the “end of the age”…and it is interesting that you connect that with the Lord building up His Body into the “full stature” of who He Himself is…Paul wrote this…“a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” That is a “Truth” that not many people grasp…I would say. That leaves one in perpetual spiritual immaturity…where in their minds…they believe that "mere tenure"…equals growing up in maturity into the Head. That's how they do it in church I have seen that. There are a fair amount of those in “oversight” here on “worthy” who are responding to you…I am sure we will get some “mature” insight from them. I’ll take a crack at your request here as well… That’s true…in Ephesians 2 he states as you did…”We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” We are predestined in Christ from before the foundations of creation…awesome…that speaks to our eternal nature in the Spirit. Additionally in 1st Corinthians 12:18 Paul wrote…”God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired”…think about that…”placed each one of them…in the body…just as He desired.” Speaks to intimacy really…and individuality uniqueness or even peculiarity. Now when you add that He called us “beforehand” one can feel the eternal Love of the Father…talk about destiny. Tatwo...:)

This is one of those cases where I really cannot discern the nature of your intent...are you saying the Lord requires people to be comfortable so HE can get some "word" in them...or are you being facetious? Tatwo...:)

Neighbor…this “worship” you speak of here and I am including your prior descriptions as you have stated “weekly corporate worship service”…“Worship is…as…serious business” is really “Judaistic” or perhaps “Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical/Pagan” as your description appears in my mind. I mean no offence…the picture your painting as I am seeing it…from your words in this post…looks like a “form of” typical ancient/modern temple worship…right? Think of worshippers going to the “temple/church/synagogue/building/edifice” and engaging in whatever and however they worship typically. How relevant to this discussion is Paul’s writing in Romans 12:1 for example where he explains “service of worship”…as they are translated from the same Greek word G2999 “latreia” defined as “divine service of worship”…let’s see what Paul wrote here…I think it fits…and may be helpful to us as we proceed in this endeavor? “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” Here the apostle Paul describes the “spiritual service of worship”…some of the very things you have brought forth here Neighbor…as “presenting your bodies as a living holy sacrifice.” What is that but a consecrated to God…week by week, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, breath by breath, thought by thought lifestyle…of sacrificing ones “personal desire” for their life…to the Holy Spirit…that He may “live His eternal life through us?” Which incidentally…would be the only way that our “living sacrifice” would be “accepted by God.” Typically people think of “sacrifice” as in the case of something that dies…however this speaks of one who is yet “alive…living…who’s existence is upon the alter in the most holy place in the temple of God…right? In Paul’s depiction of our “spiritual service of worship” we are to lay down our personal desires and ambitions…there’s the death required in sacrifice…receive our “unique call” from God in Christ…and in this allow the Holy Spirit to transform our mindsets from the “kingdom of darkness” to the “Kingdom of God” so that we may be able to “prove” what the “good acceptable and perfect will of God is”…agreed? This proving would be through our living and lifestyle…all of it. Which is what the Lord did prior to His delivery of that amazing picture on the mountain that day…no? Now we can see why you so passionately stated…oh yeh I felt you bro…“If my Lord's talk at the Mount is indeed a sermon, I don't think I have heard another from any pastor preacher priest in my lifetime that is anything like it.” I am not saying that corporate assemblies or gatherings are unacceptable…no I do not see them as such…however neither can they be defined as “spiritual service of worship”…to the Lord…in and of themselves. There is so much more to this…I’ll leave it here for now. Tatwo...:)

I can relate...however when these hirelings read from the scriptures it is the same as sermonizing to me because…one…most of them are not called nor qualified to divide the words of righteousness. Two…they typically are not living the life as described by the Lord on the mount that day. He bore the “Image and likeness of God”…the typical sermonizer does not…this bodes poorly for its hearers. Tatwo...:)

I would ask you then Neighbor…why do you say that or why is that so for you? No…simply put no. The Sermon on the Mount was a description of life in the Kingdom of God on earth coming from the mind of the Lord’s Spirit. Any “sermon or presentation” that does not compliment the picture painted by the Lord Yahshua Christ in His revelation there that day…is a counterfeit and false. To this day…when He speaks…when the “Word of God” speaks…He is revealing Himself to our spirits…this explains why the “sons of God” cannot stomach those unfortunate events. For further understanding simply look at the story that precedes that trip to the mountain that day…The Lord Yahshua is operating from the very throne of God in His power and authority…He is literally bearing the “full authentication and pleasure” of His Father and He’s only short time removed from the victory He won in the “wilderness and the three temptations from the dragon.” He then goes to a wedding in Cana of Galilee where He began the manifestation of His glory… He was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people. They brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them. Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. Then He took the “crowds” to the mountain and explained all that “He had done….was doing…and was going to do” which included that soon He would be imparting of the Kingdom of God to humanity…and how they are to live as a result. He spoke with an authority that the contemporaries of His day could not match and the people knew this. To be honest Neighbor…I rarely if ever consider the word in the last 30 years. Early on…as I remember…it seems that the preachers distanced themselves from that word in favor of a myriad of other preferred terms…it did not however change the payload of what was being delivered by the same. Tatwo...:)

The mental picture the word “sermon” creates for me is very much the same as you have described for yourself Neighbor. However my understanding of the invisible realms of the “spirit world” both the kingdom of the dragon and the Kingdom of God…always leaves me highly suspicious of those who spout forth “a lengthy tedious reproof, or exhortation.” I do not believe that this is merely happenstance…clearly the dragon is attacking the sons of God today. I would suggest that today we all should recognize as the “end of the age” is coming forth…so is the increase of the persecution upon the Body of Christ…which I believe that most of those “sermon preaching” characters are setting up for. They make "Christ" seem unpalatable and unnecessary to many...this brings reproach...I do not think that they all realize this either…nor do their congregants in most cases. By my standards…”sermonizers” as you Neighbor have defined them…that is if…I understand you I would agree…they are wolves in sheep’s clothing opposing the Kingdom and the people of God. Tatwo...:)

Expanding the discussion a bit perhaps…here Neighbor…you are defining what you acknowledge “worship is not” accompanied by your definition of what “Worship is…as…serious business” followed by additional details of your perspective? If one is to understand your focus here and the point of your OP…one must acknowledge…as you are suggesting…the “presentation” is included in the “serious business of a worship service” and you liken it to a “vitality infusion” which is a part of what you describe as the “high point of each week?” It is important that each understands “their definition of worship” in regards to life “in Christ”…and it is my assumption that you are doing just that. Initially you state that a “Worship service is a high point, make that the high point, of each week.” I think I am following up to this point. Here you are adding some detail to your description from immediately above…I have a question, you wrote…“For the word of God spoken, read, thoughtfully questioned and considered for best application, via exposition, is a builder of strength for use in all that is and will occur during the entire week, each week.” So…staying in context…you are discussing some of the “finer details” of the “presentation” element of a “weekly corporate worship service.” It is from here that I will ask this question…in regards to your statement…“thoughtfully questioned”…is that a publicly expressed “questioning” in the weekly corporate worship service? This does serve as a more detailed definition…from you Neighbor…as to your desire, preference, vision or expectation of the weekly worship service. Likening the experience, impact, or effect of a weekly worship service…to a daily intake of a fine breakfast meal each morning…? Tatwo...:)

Greetings to you Neighbor… This is a somewhat interesting “conversation” you have started here…I have read the thread 2 times in effort to try to gain a “working” understanding of all that has been posted. I am not sure I have done that…completely…normally I can sort through hyperbole but…sometimes in a forum I am just not sure. I did feel however a response to a couple of your questions may be interesting…if nothing more than to offer perhaps an additional perspective. So you are differentiating between what you define a sermon as…which is…“a lengthy tedious reproof, or exhortation” and a presentation…which is…” of the word of God the Bible, word by word, verse by verse, book by book.” The “sermon” in your mind negates the idea of a “corporate worship service”…whereas a “presentation” is an integral part of the “corporate worship service?” Tatwo...:)

I read it...all of it RM

Dennis here is a perfect example of what I posted to you... "Revelation Man" says "The bible does not really preach a false messiah is coming, that has been extrapolated from men through the years, mostly from misdiagnosing passages" Then "Revelation Man" quotes the Lord Himself saying false messiahs (Christ) will "arise" or "come." Still think no one is at work as "false Christs and false prophets" today? You looking at its effect right here. Tatwo...:)

Hi Dennis... "Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders"...are you suggesting that these "great signs and wonders" when they occur...are discernable to the carnal unjustified "human eye" in most cases? In other words The "deceptive assault" with which they attack humanity...is not so much upon the "world"...as it is upon the household of God...right? The Lord said...the only ones they do not deceive are the "elect" or the "sons of God." The reason I ask is...being that these are the "works" of "false Christs and prophets" they are "evil spirits who are cloaked in deception" Dennis...agreed? In this light...we have the reality that these "false witnesses" who "shew great signs and wonders" which are empowered via "evil spirits" that rule in the "invisible realm" of spiritual darkness...why is it then...that one would expect that these "signs and wonders" are entirely visible to humanity when the primary focus and reason for them is to deceive those who believe in Christ? These are "spiritual signs and wonders" designed to make believers...believe that which is a lie...and it is and will work in contributing to the "apostasy"...this is an assault upon the mind Dennis. This means that only those who are capable of "spiritually discerning" (seeing...hearing and understanding) this deception upon the church...can actually realize them. That is not to say that they are complete, or finished...no...this is an ongoing reality since the first century as Paul writes about it. The real issue may be for those who "do not or cannot" understand that these evildoers are in action today as professionals. In fact the deception is so complete that "Only the elect" can see them...exactly as the Lord himself "said." If you understand what I am saying here...the question I have for you and anyone else is...where does that leave someone like yourself...who I am understanding believes that..."Never since Jesus spoke this has there been a group of people showing great signs and wonders?" Something to consider Tatwo...:)

Ok…so it should be clear to the maturing “sons of God” that today…that the “only…temple in which God has interest is…His own”…that is the “dwelling place of His Holy Spirit”…which is “His people”…the “temple of God” on earth and in heaven is in “His people.” It is this temple from which the “apostasy” takes place…it has to do with people “leaving the spiritual temple of God”…on earth…from Paul’s day up to today and in the future. Now to finish 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verses 3 & 4…“and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship” Now that we are armed with the “complete understanding” of exactly what constitutes “God’s Holy Temple”…which is described as what one is “apostatizing or falling away” from…then brings into view according to brother Paul…the cause of the “falling away”…it is…the appearance of one “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship.” The liar… So…is it too much a stretch for me to say…that this character…the “man of lawlessness” exults…opposes…deems himself as greater than God and His dwelling place or “His Holy Temple?” No…no it is not a stretch at all…in fact…that…among other things…is exactly what Paul is telling us. This “lawless one” attempts to exult himself above “all other gods”…this includes the God and Father of our Lord Yahshua Christ and His creation. What does this do for the “apostasy” but continuously inspire it all the greater? Once it gets to the fullness of its appearance…for those who are falling away…he…the “man of lawlessness” appears as “god.” This is exactly what Paul is revealing to us…and thus…this understanding will give a greater understanding of the following passage from…2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 4b. “So that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” We have already understood the “temple of God” as “His Spirit dwelling in and among His household and people.” We also understand that it is the “temple of God” from which one can “fall away” that constitutes the “apostasy” that Paul reveals to us. We understand that it is the “deceptive” work and appearance…“as God”…of this “man of lawlessness” that causes people formerly in the “temple of God” to reject God leave the temple and follow him all the wiles thinking they are in Christ…massive deception in play here. So…”a people” who were once “the temple of God”…who “fall away” from or leave the only “temple of God” there is…which is ”the dwelling place of Gods Holy Spirit”…are deceived by this “man of lawlessness”…into believing that…“he is God”…thereby completing the transition from actually being in the “temple of God” into the “temple of the false god”…as God…in their minds…without their realizing this…which is what Paul has communicated here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4 It is in this…that we see the “man of lawlessness…taking his seat in the temple of God”…”displaying himself as being God.” Of course at some point this one is no longer in “temple of God” in Christ. This “man of lawlessness” precipitates the ”falling away…the apostasy”…which causes people who were “formerly” in the Kingdom of God…to acquiesce to the belief that he…this “man of lawlessness” is God…and this happens in “their minds”…their thoughts are co-opted through an invisible spiritual deception…that by definition…is completely unbeknownst to the apostate. They go on believing and living like they are in Christ…members of His body…and are now tragically and unaware that they are trapped in an inverse reality…and in darkness as they see this “man of lawlessness” as their God. I will say this…for those multitudes who are in some form or fashion yet watching for this “man of lawlessness”…by the time…you…“see”…him as he is…your deception will be complete…and you will obey his rule in your life in the form of worship to your god. If you have not yet seen this one the “man of lawlessness”…brother, sister…you have/are being deceived by him…because he has you looking forward in time to his appearance…as though he has not yet arrived…that is the power of his covert nature and operation. No one says…”oh hey…I am deceived.” Tatwo...:)

Ok…so you Joe…see these verses as constituting a plan, command, vision, instruction, concept, as inspiration of some type…for Israel and its constituency to build another temple. While I can agree that the prospect of building a modern day temple (3rd) is plausible…I have not actually seen that laid out in scripture…though it may actually be there…no one has shown me the “order” to do it. Typically there is only “inference” to the building of a temple in Israel drawn out from ones interpretation of the given texts…your references are no different as I see it. Let’s look deeper into the first one you cite Joe. First we need to consider the word “temple” in the New Testament as it has been translated…almost exclusively into “two” words in the Greek…I am working out of the KJV here as a note. Additionally, these are really the only two references to “temple” found in the New Testament…with the latter word…the only word for “temple” found in the book Revelation…this matters Joe. 1. G2411 “hieron”…a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers. The entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary. 2. G3485 “naos” that part of the temple where God himself resides. Properly…divine dwelling-place…the place of divine manifestation. With just it’s two inner compartments (rooms). Consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies. If the difference between specific definitions of the word “temple” means nothing to someone studying the bible…well then…they are able to frame their interpretation in any manner that suits them…and that may leave one with an incomplete or inaccurate interpretation…if that really matters. Now let’s consider the first reference that you cite as some sort of directive or vision for the building of another temple. All would do well to follow this out…there is a simplicity to these passages that many have overlooked…I have taken the time to open up to you in a greater light…some understanding…hope you grasp it. 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4 “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, In your selection of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verses 3 & 4…and in regard to the “Lords coming”…first in the progression here is the “apostasy”…this is a “falling away”…one cannot “fall away” from a thing…unless they were once “a part” of…the thing. What is it that Paul is referring to as “that” from which there will be a “falling away…from?” Clearly it is from the “Kingdom of God and the Lord”…so prior to the Lord’s return…Paul is telling us that the “first” thing we will see…is people once formerly in the “house of God or the Body of Christ…departing the faith”…in other words they will be leaving via deception…thinking it is the right thing to do. Interestingly enough Paul is the one who teaches us if the Spirit of God dwells in us…”we are a temple of God”…for further clarification on the matter…Paul wrote…”do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?” That is very clear and straight forward…only the deceived trip on this definition of “temple.” He does not stop there…in Ephesians he writes this…”you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household”…in the “house of God.” Which house…has been “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone”…the “house of God” also known as “the temple of God”…then…is on a firm foundation…in Christ. Paul continues here in Ephesians 2 by writing…”in whom the whole building [the house/temple of God] being fitted together [the temple of God that is being built] is growing into a holy temple in the Lord” The “Body of Christ”…is being built into the “holy temple of God” and because Paul is referring to humanity living on the earth in his day and up to today and yet future…the Lord is yet building “His Holy Temple.” This is the only “temple” we need to concern ourselves with ever…do not be deceived beloved. He does not stop there in Ephesians however…Paul concludes in verse 22 in this fashion…”in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” This “temple of God” is such because…wherever the “Spirit of God dwells”…is “His Holy Temple.” This is the term “naos” G3485… the place of divine manifestation…and this is the word Paul is using here. He is not referencing a “physical temple” that is the word “hieron” G2411 look for yourself. To be continued... Tatwo...:)

Bring it JoeCanada! Hear hear! Which is why He laid them to waste in utter desolation in which their children within them perished. Yeh some of them do…where does it say that in scripture for my reference? Great point Joe… Yes…yes I did. Not only the “temple institute” Joe…the typical uninitiated zionists push it, the law keepers push it…the Judaizers push it and those who worship Israel and the old covenant push it…and your right “These sacrifices are not efficacious” however what’s worse is…that it is an open denial of the Cross of Christ of the blood of the Lamb and God the Fathers desire for His Son…it is not merely passive...it is destructive to them and whoever they proselytize as well. Yeh…this is a slippery slope of "dragonistic deception"…most conflate the “second coming of the Lord” with a “pre-mid-trib rapture” event…this completely exposes their ignorance of who "Christ" actually is. It is these...whose desire for the second coming is very likely exactly what you have explained here in this post…the dragons "anointed one"...some will get it at that point...most will be so confused they will melt down emotionally and mentally and blindly worship the image of the beast in their minds...due to the fear that Satan has groomed into their thoughts over the course of their “Christian lives” which they have misunderstood as "faith"...in which they believed it was actually the Lord Yahshua Himself. Depart from me I never knew you... Tatwo...:)

Yes you are right…it would, can and does present a salvation issue JoeCanada. We are “tri-part” beings Joe as Paul wrote in 1st Thessalonians 5:23…”spirit, soul and body.” Here he makes it known to us…that each of these three “elements” that comprise us…are distinct and unique from each other…and need to be preserved without blame and sanctified entirely…right? The "spirit of a man" is an endowment from the eternal Spirit of God which in fact enables our souls and bodies to be “alive” and interestingly it requires nothing from creation to exist. Being eternal as it is…when one dies…this spirit returns to God who imparted it…this is also where the “Holy Spirit” resides or dwells in the sons of God. The demonic can never enter the spirit from God…nor would it ever want to be in the presence of the Holy Spirit. The soul is another deal altogether…think of the “soul” as “who you really are” it’s kind of difficult to express clearly on a forum…but…the soul or in the Greek “psuché”…is the “seat of the mind, will and emotions” of a man...and it is here that darkness can both dwell/live, co-opt…and attack the human born again or not. The psuché “soul” processes the inputs from the 5 human senses and essentially directs action and response…think “fight or flight” for example. The progression of being “transformed by the renewing of your mind” spiritually via the indwelling Holy Spirit…is where the “son of God” learns to bring the carnal desire of the “old soulish nature” back under subjection to the Holy Spirit within the spirit of the man. Think Adam and Eve prior to the fall in the Garden of Eden there is much more to this…that will have to do for now. So technically JoeCanada…while you are right that “Satan himself cannot sit in the hearts and mind of Christians”…his demonic counterparts can and do…and in many cases he merely "creates" an “image” that has been impressed into the mind of human soul that can lead to deep extreme spiritual struggle. I have led many brothers and sisters through demonic deliverance over the last 40 years with demons living in their souls, emotions and thought life unbeknownst to them. I must admit...it did not always work. While neither Satan nor the demonic can dwell with the Holy Spirit…nor would they want to…the believer can in fact struggle with demonic possession and oppression…think “But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan!” Tatwo...:)

How? Well to start we could realize that the trap was set millennia ago Joe…right? It has simply been growing in scope, authority, power and sophistication over the centuries and decades…no? The answer to your question JoeCanada is…the deceived “will not realize it” until it is likely too late friend. His temple…the Lord Yahshua…has been in the process of being built for the last couple of millennia as well…wouldn’t you agree? His Body on earth and in heaven right now...is His temple…the one He has built/building Himself…the one in which He dwells…and this since the Pentecost following His ascension…right? Ok so your right “Satan is not omnipresent” and he never has been…right? Yet his success is legendary to put it mildly…Joe…especially when in reference to the “false church…the harlot” herself. So how do you think the dragon has had so much success in “false religious Christianity” who are always claiming to be Christ…if Joe…if…he has not been in their hearts and minds? How else does he attack and deceive ones belief structure if not via ones heart/mind? Tatwo...:)

Continuing on... So the scriptural and spiritual interpretations are here…for the “Holy Spirit indwelt sons of God called to seek the deep things in the mind of their God and Father.” The heavens and the earth were created and therefore “not eternal”…and they were created by and for the Son of God. This is of import in regards to any “end of the age” revelation and spiritual understanding. I think of it this way…this is just a picture…there is eternity and this creation hangs in eternity…like a pendant on the necklace around the neck of our eternal God and Father of creation. As I stated earlier…creation has a beginning…so it has an ending…because it is not eternal. So the Spirit of God streams into creation from eternity…because it should be obvious that creation cannot “contain” the eternal God within whom creation itself exists. It seems as though the highest of the heavens…He created for Himself…which is where His throne is…while it is in creation...that is. The throne of God being the symbolic seat of His eternal “power and authority” in creation…is where our eternal God first reveals His plans or intentions for His creation. By this I mean…His eternal mind is revealed into the heavens…which perhaps…is like a “staging area” for the “mind and will” of God for His creation. As the ages of this creation pass…the Spirit inspired writers of scripture were/are granted access to the mind of God as revealed from eternity into the heavens. Now in the case of John the apostle…he like Paul…claims to have been taken to the highest heavens into the throne room and then given revelation directly from the Lord Yahshua Himself. Seemingly that is why John…the Lords last of the 12 original “living apostles” is taken into the highest created heaven where he…by the way “sees and describes the entire environment surrounding the throne of God”…and he is subsequently given the “Revelation of how the Lord Yahshua Christ means to conclude this creation age.” I wrote all of that to frame where our Brother John seems to and claims to have been…in the highest of the created heavens…in other words the “throne room” if you will? So doubtless…he is receiving revelation from the “Eternal One” directly…and this specifically concerning the conclusion of “this age and creation itself.” Perhaps John the apostle is seeing and understanding…to some degree…“what has been rolled out into creation…what is being rolled out to creation…what will be rolled out into creation…and…how this creation is consummated?” If that is what we are reading and studying here in the book of Revelation…and I think that it is…then clearly as “Last Daze” noted…we are being given “prophetic insight” into the “heavenly spiritual realm” of the Lord Yahshua…and therefore we are…for those of us who actually are…that is…being taught to “understand…interpret and speak” to the “dual nature of...earthly natural kingdoms as well as heavenly spiritual kingdoms?” Of course the Pharisee’s and Tartuffe’s of this age on these forums who already know everything about how the age is going to conclude…with them safely tucked in the heavenlies no less…speak as fools…for they have little to no understanding of what they speak…because some of what is yet to come…in this age…has yet to be revealed. It is these who bring confusion and contention…this is because they feel that their “revelation” which is from men 50…100…500 and more years ago was and is complete today…they error. They fail to understand that when that which was once prophesied in antiquity comes to its day of fulfillment a..."this is that"...moment as Peter put it on Pentecost...then and only then is the mind of God made know to His own for their bread and water...for that day. This brings us full circle by the way…the harlot who is sitting on the seven heads…many waters…mountains. Her identity is always in full view on the forums…all of them…her lies…her seduction…her deception all in view…however few can recognize her and fewer can or will confront her. She does not know the Lord…let alone His voice…and as such she cannot know His prophetic plans or will for His creation not to forget understanding the end of the age…it is in this that she deceives many. These think that because they can read, or hear, or see some words…and that they believe they know their meanings…however they cannot…for they are spiritually discerned…not understood by human reasoning…these folks are carnal and if they are children of God at all…very immature. These are the ones in who the Lord Himself physically stood in front of...and was literally talking to...where He said..."you have never heard His voice...you have never seen is form...and His word is not in you." She seduces them to reject the Lord and readily as they reject His word…“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.” Those who are seduced into the worship the whore of Babylon are scheduled to one day soon become one with the dragons beast…and when that beast and its kings tire of her as it seems…they will rend her just as the prophecy says…and she takes with her many if not all of these who believe her lies concerning how this age ends…this is because they stand in complete disregard and denial of who Christ is…because they do not see Him...they see her positioning herself as something she is not...which is then their shared judgment with the false bride. So the identity of the “seven mountains” is obvious…knowing who “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is of much greater importance…shall we? Tatwo...:)