tatwo

What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation” PT. 2 In the last post I showed what and how the terms…“tribulation and great tribulation”…are defined in the Greek and used by Yahshua, Paul and John from the New Testament. The picture I see materializing here with the translation from Greek to English appears to be very simplistic really. It has the connotation or nuance of…an event, scenario, happening, or reality that is noticeably and at times intensely distressing and troubling in a way that is pressuring and restricting one into a confinement and sometimes against their will. Thus creating an internal pressure on both one’s body and mind that can be experienced as restrictive and evil…leaving one in a calamitous distress known as judgment…or alternatively as we shall see…it can lead one to a state of repentance and even perseverance, growth and joy in the Holy Spirit…even in the face of death. That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the souls of the “evil, religious and the world” brings them into the judgment of Christ…and in some cases in regards to the religious…offers them a shot at repentance. That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the “believers, sons of God or Body of Christ” affords them an opportunity to grow spiritually through perseverance into the testimony of Christ in the joy of the Holy Spirit. So “tribulation and great tribulation” have been and are yet unavoidable for humanity. It would appear that regardless of where you are positioned spiritually…”in the world” or “in Christ” both “tribulation and great tribulation” have their divinely intentioned and effectual works all in accordance to the will of God. Of course…He knows the end of the matter before it begins. Let’s consider the source of all “tribulation and great tribulation”…well…it is allowed in the age of creation by the authority of the throne of God ultimately…however it is produced by the dragon via deception that produces sin and death…which is separation from eternal life in God. Deception must be understood in its fullest impact…this means that it’s most virulent effect is…that those who are deceived “cannot or do not realize or see that deception has gripped them”…in other words those living in deception “do not know and are not aware that they are deceived”…and for “believers” this means that they do not know…(apostasy)…that what they are “believing for truth” is that which is “a lie.” They serve “Satan the dragon as his Harlot” believing they are serving the “Lord Yahshua as His Bride.” How then does “tribulation and great tribulation” fit into this state of “deception”…you may be thinking? Well for the “deceived” or those who believe “a lie as truth”…to which Yahshua declared a point of warning for…”do not be deceived” He said. However…for the deceived the “tribulation and great tribulation” is really “hidden from them” through this complex network of deception and lies. I would like you to think along the lines of a quote from long ago…it was probably a Brother in Christ who spoke or wrote it…“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” For imaginations sake…let’s consider what that means…simply stated I see it like this. This fallen angelic creature…a dragon…built a “world – kosmos” of ever increasing entanglement to irresistibly enslave the souls of man on the earth…in which he torments and destroys those same men and creation…while leading them to believe that it is the work of the God and Father of creation or someone else who is doing this…utterly hiding himself from “view” via deception…in that…he is undetectable to the human soul. I understand that these are difficult realities…but this is a time for Truth to shine forth…this is a time when the Holy Spirit of the Living God is continually bringing to light that which was hidden in the darkness of ages past. This must be known…He is bringing these “revelations” forth by those whom He has sent out…upon the earth…today. This dragon’s realm of darkness has cloaked his intentions and works behind the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life” of the carnal human soul…since the Garden of Eden…for that is all that is in the world…which is passing away. Ok so let’s dig into some of this “tribulation and great tribulation”…perhaps we can change it to “tribulation unto great tribulation” as it is now and as it is on its way to its crescendo performance at the end of the age. As I stated prior…the arc of the deceptive influence is continually growing until it is “great” and has enslaved all of those who “dwell on earth.” Here is a list of several ways that the United States is “systemically” being destroyed right now…today…it is not likely to be comprehensive however there is some detail…and if one were to drill down into any of these things they would fine so much detail. Additionally…the work of this systemic beast is “behind the scenes” and largely unseen by most Americans, the religious and worldly alike…and it has been occurring for a few centuries while become increasingly more sophisticated in the more recent times. Normally people only see a couple of these realities at a time…when they are seen as a listing…another picture should emerge. 1. Moral and societal decay 2. The global depopulation agenda 3. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) and the new racism 4. Destruction of the nuclear family and parental rights 5. The educational indoctrination of children 6. The trans contagion and sterilization of children 7. Record low fertility and plummeting birth rates 8. Toxic food supply 9. Inflation and debt 10. The financing of endless foreign wars 11. The destruction of private property rights 12. Open borders and illegal immigration 13. Rampant crime and unsafe cities 14. Mass addiction and fentanyl 15. Over prescription of pharmaceuticals 16. The asymmetrical weaponization of justice 17. Unaccountable federal bureaucracies 18. Election insecurity and interference 19. Vaccine and pandemic disinformation 20. The sprawling surveillance state 21. The centralization and consolidation of government power 22. The destruction of trust in institutions 23. The censorship industrial complex 24. State-media propaganda 25. The smearing of those who challenge it You may be able to add to this list something’s that you see…when one stops to consider the picture that this list paints…one must understand that these are the works of the dragon. The dragon’s “M.O.” is to “kill steel and destroy” and that is threaded all throughout this list. We must understand that most of these things are well established and into their processes…long before they manifest openly into the world. When they do emerge it is with a fair amount of stealth and often not overtly detectable. As one who has followed these things and more for the last 20 years…I must say the profound emergence of some of these things in the 3-5 years is very alarming. For example…as a farmer I have been watching the livestock cattle and beef industry for over 40 years. Recently the USDA released that the U.S. cattle herd is smaller today than it was 70 years ago when they started tracking the herd size…and the population of the U.S. in that day was around 125 million…today it is around 330 million. Imagine the effect or impact that is having and going to have as we move forward in 2024 and into 2025. How about energy…when Russian energy was not readily available for obvious reasons…the U.S. government began to sell its reserves to largely European nations causing the U.S. reserves to dwindle as reported. Now that the government is working to resupply the energy and fuel reserves it is doing so at a cost greater than what they sold the reserves for…so it is driving fuel and energy costs up. All of this to say…“tribulation unto great tribulation” has been here…is here…and going to increase dramatically as we move ahead into the future. From tribulation to greater and greater tribulation to the great tribulation…like a woman in the throes of birth pains and pangs…preparing to give birth is how the Lord said it. For those who have not, do not or cannot see the things I have listed here…as “tribulation unto great tribulation” the likely hood that you are being prepared by God for increasing “tribulation unto great tribulation” is almost nil. We will see if any of this goes anywhere from here…I do have more to post. Tatwo...:)

The word “tribulation” is not as well defined as it should be…however it is not difficult to understand. Let’s just take a look at the basic elementary definition of “tribulation” as used in the New Covenant as translated from the Greek. Sources here are “Strong’s…Word Studies…NAS Exhaustive Concordance…Thayer’s Greek Lexicon…The Complete WordStudy Dictionary…Englishman’s Concordance. The root word from which the actual word comes from is G2346 thlíbō meaning “to constrict, distress and oppressive affliction, confined, suffer, trouble, restricted.” The word translated to “tribulation” from the Greek in the New Testament is G2347 thlípsis meaning “pressure, a narrow place, hemmed in, internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined or restricted without options, pressure from evil, distress, calamity…affecting body, mind or both, testing ones endurance or faith.” The picture I see materializing here with the translation from Greek to English appears to be very simplistic really. It has the connotation or nuance of…an event, scenario, happening, or reality that is noticeably and at times intensely distressing and troubling in a way that is pressuring and restricting one into a confinement and sometimes against their will. Thus creating an internal pressure on both one’s body and mind that can be experienced as restrictive and evil…leaving one in a calamitous distress known as judgment…or alternatively as we shall see…it can lead one to a state of repentance and even perseverance, growth and joy in the Holy Spirit…even in the face of death. Now…the word is used around 20 times in the bible depending on translation. It is mostly a New Testament term…used primarily by the Lord Yahshua, Paul and John. “Tribulation” according to the Lord…“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.” and “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will” Additionally He references it as “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” He says it is the state which the church in Smyrna had experienced…”tribulation and your poverty and the blasphemy”…and it would intensify and test them giving them the opportunity through “perseverance” to receive the “crown of life.” To the church in Thyatira He said “Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds” speaking of those who were involved in an spiritually adulterous affair with the harlot. So in that example like the Smyrna example…we see the Lord using/allowing “tribulation and great tribulation” to come upon the church to give opportunity for repentance and a return to righteousness. According to Paul “tribulation” is experienced by every soul of men who do evil…and he says that we are to be “persevering in tribulation” …”knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance” while not…being able to separate us from the love of Christ…and something the Body of Christ must learn to live with. John states that he is “a fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus”…and then as he is in heaven…he sees those who are clothed in white robes those coming out of the “great tribulation” and are washed white by the blood of the Lamb. Ok so there is a condensed look at the use of the word “tribulation and great tribulation” in the New Testament…by whom…and for what. We can see that the Lord has and will put “His own” through “tribulation and great tribulation” to bring repentance, cleansing, persecution, testimony, perseverance, and joy in the Holy Spirit. In this light we can see that “tribulation and great tribulation” are realities that the Lord Himself allows for His purposes. Paul says “tribulation” is what the evil soul will face…which he explains as the judgment rendered to each person according to their deeds. However Paul also resonates with the Lord Yahshua in that “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the sons of God brings perseverance…a strengthening…a challenge…and that in the midst of it…even if it were to produce everything and anything including death…that “tribulation and great tribulation” in and of itself cannot separate us from the love of Christ. Paul instructs the “sons of God” to preserver in the face of all “tribulation” being hopeful and prayerful…just to mention a couple of the spiritual disciplines associated with perseverance of the saints. Finally…Brother Paul instructs the “sons of God” the “Body of Christ - believers” to imitate him as he imitates the Lord in the receiving and bringing of the “Word” in “much tribulation” with the joy of the Holy Spirit. In his example…this is so that the Thessalonians might be an example to believers in Macedonia and Achaia…and by extension to all believers since…even unto today. So what did we “see” here regarding “tribulation and great tribulation” as defined in the translation to Greek and to the usage in every mention in the New Testament? That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the souls of the evil and the world brings them into the judgment of Christ…and in some cases offers them a shot at repentance. That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the believers, sons of God or Body of Christ affords them an opportunity to grow through perseverance into the testimony of Christ in the joy of the Holy Spirit. It would appear that regardless of where you are positioned spiritually…”in the world” or “in Christ”…both “tribulation and great tribulation” have their divinely intentioned and effectual works all in accordance to the will of God. Another thing about “tribulation and great tribulation” that I see…perhaps circumstantially…is that the “arc of its effect” as it has proceeded over the ages has been greatly enlarged…so as to now…encompass the entirety of creation in some way. As we move forward into the end of the age…which we are…the “tribulation and great tribulation” will indeed increase in size…“area of impact”…and scope…“intensity of impact.” Thus judging the world and purifying the Body of Christ as we see here. Next we will look at “tribulation and great tribulation” in the world today…most notably in the U.S. where I live. Perhaps uncovering the movement towards and growth of.. “tribulation and great tribulation” in the last few…say 3-5 years…because it is rather shocking really. Tatwo...:)

Right…I saw that…which lent itself to some question and confusion as I see it…no harm friendnt. Go ahead and decapitate my post if you desire…or not…I have only to gain. There is always the private message? Yes, I do agree that I have leveled “critical words” to and about others in these forums…directly…thank you for “collecting them up”…as it were…for me…and re-presenting them to me friendnt…it’s a brotherly thing to do I suppose? Your involvement is “incomplete” at best…and your continued “axe grinding” here is the same thing. If you have something “direct” you need to say to me…that’s fine as I said…then say it. Ok friendnt…you have surfaced and I understand you here…completely…I have apologized and asked you for forgiveness…and as I stated in my last post to you…I am allowing your words to be to me as a fine tuning of my spirit…thank you. That said…your subsequent statement…”Because I believe is not fair to speak about others in this way in their absence and without valid reasons and only armed with what you think and your understanding about them and their work.” Rejects my apology and it utterly lacks context…true context…and this reveals…at least on this forum…where you are at in your spiritual maturity…these forums can be difficult at times. I suggest that you leave it alone now…as it is. Perhaps…you need to continue the development of your spiritual discernment to the point that you garner an increased understanding about how it works…why it’s important…and that…the spiritual battle is for the mind of men’s souls…with the primary weapon in the battle being the tongue and its subsequent words…I have given you that as merely a suggestion…do you think there is anything I can do to assist you in any way? Those are your words friendnt…I know who I am and by what authority I speak…the rest of the forum participants are free to discern and judge as they deem necessary…to any end they so desire…including you…they do and have and I have responded to them as I have you…in most cases. In a situation such as you have brought forth here friendnt…and in regards to anyone who does speak as a judge…the litmus test of one’s authority is to be tested…first…in one’s ability to accurately understand the judgement…and then in a situation like this…determine one’s own response…accept or reject the judgment as given and why. However…to become emotionally uneasy and somewhat confusing…based upon any type of incomplete understanding or personal offense…and then to repeatedly charge someone for the same offense…after the only acceptable recompense has been offered…this speaks to a character that can only pronounce judgment of others while also rejecting the same of themselves. I did apologize and ask your forgiveness with a noted recompense…in an earlier post friendnt…from what kingdom do you hail…where that...is not an accepted offering? Tatwo…:)

Finally.... The Lord and His Body are busily and intently working in a way which “causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” When you see Him…which is yet fairly rare…that is because "all" His members ”have died and our lives are hidden with Christ in God”…meaning that unless you are in the Body of Christ and living according to the “proper working” of your call supported by the guidance of those gifts...you’re on the outside and there is no guarantee that your even looking in. He…the “Christ” on the other hand is very much engaged in building Himself up by loving and serving each other while learning and living a strict obedience to God’s standard of holiness and righteousness. When He appears He will have grown to sufficient maturity...nothing less than the being fully capable of supporting the glory of His Head...He will have been raised to bear the full grace and glory of the eternal God Himself...on this earth...and this...in the exact manner that the Lord Yahshua did. Do not doubt..."this Man this Son"...has been seen throughout the Scripture by prophets and apostles from Moses to John...of course...He is eternal. This Body that is yet being assembled…though it is nearing its full maturity…is a spiritual Body and a heavenly Body…not physical…though He can be spiritually discerned in those living humans that comprise Him physically here on the earth. Just as when the Lord said…”He who has seen Me has seen the Father”…this Body is being raised and growing to the point where He will be raised up one day soon to proclaim…”He who has seen me has seen the Christ.” At that point…He…the fully mature Body of Christ…directly under the authority and power of its Head…Yahshua…emerges as the “son of God” known as Christ a “corporate man” and He will then present a full scale assault upon the darkness of this age…fully underwritten by the throne of God Himself. This when revealed…to ones spirit today...changes the entire scope of the religious perspective of the end of this age. Tatwo...:)

Now in verse 15 Paul says that the maturing saints…via the loving nurture of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with His specifically called and chosen men…causes the Body to master “speaking the truth in love, [this facilitates the next part] we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ” again a reference to growing up into “all aspects” into “Him who is the Head”…Christ. Paul’s repeated emphasis on…“to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ”… should never be discounted. The tapestry he is weaving is one of “spiritual maturity” in the house of God and the continuously increasing appearance of the glory of the Lord Yahshua Christ in His people. I hope you give this a second thought…the picture I am painting...is grace to those who have eyes to see and see and who have ears to hear and hear…theirs is to understand. In verse 16 we have the working picture of what it means to be in the house of God where there are apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers graced…gifted and anointed by the Lord Yahshua Himself…who are working via the Holy Spirit…and they know it…just look at what it produces…”from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” This is a vision of what building the Body of Christ looks like…these gifts in action assist the Holy Spirit in making sure the “whole Body, being fitted” to the “Holy Spirits exact desire…He is the author and the glue”…and is held together by what each individual “saint/joint” supplies. This speaks to unique individual purpose…which is nothing less than eternal divine intention for us uniquely. This is why these…who fill these gifts or graces are human also…they are raised in the temple by the Royal Priest to labor among His Body in the manner like that of a slave. This…is in accordance with the “proper working” or living out of the “divine intention” that God imparted to the saints “in Christ” which was established before creation was established. It’s the reality that the Holy Spirit…who knows the end from before the beginning…is moving and living among the “saints” who are beginning to understand their eternal destiny in Christ as they grow and mature spiritually….do not doubt Him…consider the outcome…“causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” Building up of itself in love! In my experience most believe Hebrews 10:25 “not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some”…is a reference to gathering or meeting on Sunday…remember when evangelical leaders in the U.S. went to court to fight for this right during the pandemic of 2020. No…that is not at all what it means…it is referring to the work of the Holy Spirit to assemble the Body of Christ here on earth and in part He is working through these 5 gifts or graces given by the Lord Yahshua upon His ascension…to the Body of Christ for this purpose. This is what Paul is teaching. His Body is then “and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part.” This is the description of “each member” understanding and living according to their “proper working – their divine call – their cross” which is illuminated by the Holy Spirit to each “member”…with the 5 gifts and graces given by the Head…assisting. Tatwo...:)

Paul continues by saying that the “saints” are to “grow and mature spiritually” and become…“a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” “A Body hast thou prepared for me”…the corporate man…who is a Spirit man…now upon the earth called “Christ” with a glorious Head and Body…hummm…where is He? “He” is here…has been since Pentecost following the Lord’s ascension when He was first brought forth to creation…He is not visible to the human eye…however…He is a spiritually maturing adult on His way to becoming an exact representation of the Lord Himself. Which of course is what Paul said…”the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” Next we see an interesting commentary by Paul…”As a result, we are no longer to be children”…he is making no bones about it…when the intended effect of “apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers is in the house”…the children of God grow up and become the fully mature “sons of God”…measuring up to the full stature of Christ the Head…the intended result…meaning they are no longer spiritual children. If you don’t have these graces or gifts fully functional and operational in your life…by this scriptural definition…one should question whether or not what they are a part of is the “Body of Christ?” Look what you’re missing…no wonder many remain unsure and unfulfilled…or possibly in the darkness and out of the eternal will of God without realizing it…that’s what is means to be deceived. Allow this to be a light to your path…it is light…your Father hears you beloved. Allow me to explain…when the children of God…stay children…Paul says they are easily “tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming.” What is the picture that is brought forth into your spirit here? What do you see? There is much to be said there…however there are some church leaders and pastors that read these forums…who have come up short of Paul’s measure as stated…that is understandable…because they likely lack the gifts and grace required to “mature” the Body…for whatever reason. Some know it and want help…though ironically most do not believe in the apostolic today…some see it as a threat to their authority…and the rest don’t care….suit yourself…judgment day is today…repentance is yet available. Tatwo...:)

For those who have the time and some interest….let’s deconstruct these passages as Paul lays this out quite simply…no need for conjecture…speaking of the Lord Yahshua who descended and then upon His ascension…He promptly “gave gifts to men” vs. 8. These “gifts-graces” are various spiritual attributes of the Lord Himself…of His divine eternal character and nature no less. In verse 11 Paul lists the gifts given…”He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers”…so…there should be no question about what these gifts are…where these gifts come from…what they are for…and who it was that authorized them and empowers them…Yahshua…it was the Lord Yahshua Christ. These are attributes of…His own person…and He is the Head of the Body…who has all power and authority on the earth and in the heavens and is realized as the Holy Spirit today. The Lord Yahshua Christ gave these to “His Body” on earth and for good reason…let’s read. With that out of the way…what is it that these “gifts work in the Body of Christ?” Verse 12…”They are for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ” So here we are told that they are the “called” as…equippers…trainers…the spiritual leaders and fathers…of the saints all of whom are His Body…it is these that are pointing the “saints” towards their “divine eternal purpose”…[call/cross/will of God]…in the Body of Christ. There is much to be said about this…another time perhaps. In other words…their [apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds teachers] calling is to nurture and prepare all the holy believers to do their own “divinely appointed works” in their lives…by learning and living out of the will of God for themselves…and as they do this they will enlarge and build up the body of Christ on earth. Here we are given the exact specification and standard for discernment and judgment between the “false” and the “true” apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds, teachers. The “True”…are the ones who are equipping the Body in order to build it up into the fullness of Christ Yahshua Himself. If one claims these graces but is not building up the saints…in other words the assembly where they serve…is not maturing spiritually in the image and likeness of the Lord Yahshua…at best they are immature in their gift and need love or at worst they are impostors and need to be shown the door…it is the fruit of their labor among the saints that is the proof of their authenticity. When they function as graced…the Body is built up…raised up…grown up…and maturing exactly as it should be. Which means…the Body of Christ is to increasingly grow in the “image and likeness of the Lord”…who is its Head. Most ignore this…the rest have never been taught this or see no need for or value to it…and the ramifications of this deficit of understanding will have an eternal impact…upon the leaders and their constituency. It is the Lord…who is the Spirit…that is building His temple…man is never able to do this…try as he may regardless of what he thinks. Paul additionally established a “time frame” for the duration of these gifts and graces to be operational in the Body among the saints. He wrote that these gifts/graces were to continue “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.” Once again...“until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”…has this been attained…is this complete? A modestly discerning observation of this forum will bring a resounding answer to this question. It is as it is supposed to be for now…however here is where the Lord of Glory is leading us. Tatwo...:)

It is clear to me…Tatwo…that there are a number of folks on these forums who are here to learn and grow…this deconstruction of Paul’s work in Ephesians chapter 4 are posted for that purpose. This may not be the place to post this…however because I ran into this issue here…I will initially post it here…those in “oversight” may redirect as they see fit. The issue of “apostles and prophets” since the first century and on up to today is one of great controversy…however there is no question as to their “presence nor their role.” Paul boldly and carefully explains in a sufficient detail…this matter as revealed to him by the Spirit of Truth. Eph 4:7-16 NASB “But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (8) Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (9) (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) (11) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, (12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; (13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (14) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (15) but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.” Tatwo...:)

Greetings friendnt… I can see that I have offended you and perhaps others…I am sorry…please forgive me…no offence was intended. But you both do and did…? I am fine with you speaking your mind here friendnt…and…I am truly working to understand your communication here…to me. At the risk of appearing insincere friendnt…is it possible you have posted things here that you may not understand or have misinterpreted? Perhaps your citation to me is unfounded…I understand “your position” you made it clear…however I do not think you understand mine…and I am fine with that as it is. Your opinion is yours...and you are entitled to it...thanks for sharing I'll receive it as an opportunity to fine tune my character. Postings on these forums is a challenge…I will work to become more keenly aware of details such as you mention… Of course…I have much to learn yet about how the Holy Spirit works…and I am…so tell me friendnt…how well do you know me? How do you know…how well that I…may know another? These are just questions...no need to answer if you don't feel lead to. Thankyou for your consideration "Your closest friendnt." Tatwo...:)

Greetings Starise... Yes of course and I agree I have read many of your posts over the years...He does show you things...thank you for sharing some of them...I personally have both learned and been comforted through your "words"...and I am sure many others have as well. Which is exactly my point...Starise...in my own experience since 1986 I have come to understand that the leadership in any denominational structure almost always has the wrong Idea of who and what apostles and prophets...specifically...are to the Body of Christ in the New Covenant...up to today. Most think there is no need for them and there are a surprising number of religious leaders who believe and teach that "apostles and prophets" have ceased...these perspectives are not only flawed...but they are likely to be eternally flawed unless there is an acceptable repentance. These folks lead the church...not the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit teaches this "reality" in a completely "spiritual" way...where only via a "maturing spiritual discernment" of the "Living Word of God" as He "speaks or reveals" Himself...can His revelation be understood by the sons of God. Its a relationship not a destination...an intimate relationship at that. It is a Father and son relationship...and the Father has granted access to His sons...for their inheritance...via the Holy Spirit. This inheritance provides the son with all he needs to live his days on the earth as an eternal being in Christ. That's what modern religion in any flavor lacks. A part from those gifts..."apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher"...from the Lord Yahshua Christ...one cannot "see" the Body of Christ as it is. The Lord told Nicodemus "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." So a primary cause of spiritual blindness is not actually being born again...yet being able to read the bible...you can see the problem this presents...this always leads to the religion of the Babylonian harlot. He also told Nicodemus..."unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"...meaning that those who proclaim the bible...because they can read...yet cannot see the Kingdom of God...they have no chance of being in the Kingdom of God today on the earth. Yet...these lead the churches everywhere. If there were prophets and apostles in the vicinity of these churches...they left when they were "called out" by the Lord Himself...however they are here on the earth today and are leading the Body of Christ exactly as they have been taught by their Head...Starise. There is more to say...at another time perhaps. Tatwo...:)

Where are the prophets and apostles in regards to these forums…gone? Where are they in regards to the modern version of institutional denominational Christianity? If one (apostle or prophet) showed up in these forums…how would they be treated? If this forum is a cross section from the religious world…and to a degree it is…I am curious. With the multitude of “experienced and elder” biblical intellectuals in our midst…why did this forum…now 6 pages and 58 replies deep…“not” get more intensely into the bible than it has…to bring forth a spiritual understanding of the roll of the New Covenant apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher? To his credit…Ray12614 did briefly along with perhaps another…with the lightest of brush strokes…reference the location of the answer to the question of modern day New Covenant apostles and prophets…I am surprised no one has yet gone deeper into this…perhaps I can. These gifts [apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher] are given to men (sons of God) so that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself…you remember…the one who…"when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” That’s prophecy no doubt. These [apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher] are all gifts of the grace of the Lord Yahshua…which are nothing less than some of the eternal attributes and characteristics of God manifest in the flesh…Himself. These gifts are Him…He is the Spirit…this Spirit indwells select humans who are then being assembled into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. These gifts are given to assist this divine plan. Of course…this is to allow for the raising of the “new born the spiritual infant”…born in the temple of the Lord…up into a “spiritually mature adult” member of the Body (family) of Christ…to serve in the roll, call, function, or to carry their unique cross…you know…”to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work”…which by the way is how they are spiritually fed…that they might grow…these five ascension gifts if you will…are instrumental in the growth of the Body of Christ on the earth. If these gifts are not openly operational in your life…personally or in others in your spiritual affinity…well that would go a long way to explain many things now wouldn’t it? Additionally…as a reminder…”the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”…so wherever the Holy Spirit is…the Lord Himself is…because they are one and the same…He is the Spirit of Truth…and also the One who brings forth “prophecy at His mere presence”…in that…He discloses to those indwelt with His Holy Spirit among other things…”what is to come.” Suffice it to say…as long as the Holy Spirit is working among mankind in the earth…there are apostles, prophets, evangelist, shepherds and teachers working among the Body of Christ exactly as the Lord set forth at His ascension…and these will continue unto the maturing of the sons of God on the earth to the full stature of the Lord Yahshua Christ Himself. This many membered corporate “Christ – Head and Body” as "one new man"…is being prepared to destroy the works of the devil for the last time in this creation…with the dragon himself ending up in the abyss. Tatwo...:)

Greetings Kristina...and a greatly belated congratulations... I have been watching this forum since the day Kristina posted her testimony 05/06/24. First to Kristina…for you sister it is going to be a matter of faith. Look closely at your life over the past months or years and determine where you are on your journey of spiritual discernment and maturity in Christ. Was there anyone to help you with this new grace or gift so that you could grow accordingly? Is this a gift you desired? Now that you are gifted in this way…do you express it openly in an assembly…where there is interpretation or is it more of a “personal time” interaction with the Holy Spirit…or both? The 4th of the “elementary principals”…or…the “doctrines of Christ”…is the laying on of hands to confirm, commission, impart, heal, deliver and so on…as the Body has need. So yes Kristina…it is possible and likely that he was at some level a prophet sent by God…why don’t you tell us what you think some 7 or 8 years down the road? How as this grace benefitted the Body of Christ and you yourself? That would be the point…for a prophet to be sent…to build up the Body of Christ. I think this would help settle the matter for you. Tatwo...:)

1to3...if I follow you and your historical posts here...you are presenting modern Israel as a fabrication of the central bank run governments and corporations...correct? In as much as I can see what you are saying...I would tend to agree with your statement "The reason why Israel exists. It's got little to nothing to do with the Holocaust and religion." Yet it is there on the map as a nation...and as a people group. For the Zionist founding fathers to bring forth this "reality" in and of itself...and then append it to the bible as the fulfillment of an ancient prophetic truth...you have the foundation of a deep delusion...a deep deception...and it comes with the same spirit as the Pharisee's and rulers of the Jews that murdered Yahshua. This that you write of 1to3...is not the Kingdom of God which the Lord Yahshua told us is not of this world nor this present realm. It is these that for a season will attack the son of God as the Body of Christ which includes its Head. However when the dragon is done with this spirit...he will throw her down...for there will be no need for her in/on his beast any longer... Tatwo...:)

I suppose one needs to understand the events preceding and simultaneously to grasp the entirety of that question/answer. There is a lot transpiring between the heavens and the earth that leads to the destruction of the earth and to destruction of those who did it? Basically…the “earth” is at times in Revelation symbolic of a people…”those who dwell on the earth”…”the earth helped the woman”…”Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth.” So what is the excepted meaning of the word “earth” in that context is required…in any case the “earth” is a created reality…therefore it is not eternal. Nothing “created is eternal” and most can’t understand this because they have their own ideas about what words mean. None the less when whatever God has created has fulfilled His intention for it…it is no longer required and as such it is done away with…or however you might like to say it. This includes people, the physical earth, and the heavens…anything that is not eternal will cease. Since God knows the end of a matter that He created…before He created it…He also knows how and when to bring it to its end…typically in judgment no less. Suffice it to say that it is the “beast” who destroys the earth…and it will be “Christ…Head and Body” on the earth that destroys the beast. Take it from here? Tatwo...:)

Michael37... What does this actually mean? If one fears...one fears...which is exactly what happens in the place of faith. Tatwo...:)

Depends on the mind defining harsh...to the carnal mind...perhaps...to the spiritual mind no. What may be harsh however...is the current and future judgment of the evil that murders...and commits the deeds of the flesh in general. Although they know the ordinance of God...those who practice such things are worthy of death...and for those who support them...who are not only doing the same...but also give hearty approval to those who practice them...it is this Neighbor...which this man will endure that is harsh. This "man"...the one professing to be wise..."he" becomes a fool...and it is "he"...who draws the unrighteous judgment of "sin and death." We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things and to those who do the same themselves...but here's what's really harsh Neighbor...this "man" believes that he will escape the judgment of God... Though they smile and laugh today...they do so due to their arrogance and unbelief...yet their account is being charged...they are found wanton..."overdrawn"...if you like...and the debt collector is near. Fear will become their god and they will hide from Lamb who sits upon the throne. Tatwo...:)

The sons of God...the Body of Christ...led of the Holy Spirit..."we." We understand why that would require explanation. Tatwo...:)

Great point Neighbor…unless of course one is open to understand that what is happening…is something that is condemned by Christ Yahshua. All that we see going on in this situation can be quantified in the statement…”kill…steal and destroy.” Those of the household of God are never involved in these types of evil…they may be called to die at the hands of these dragon lead imposters…however…they will not be guilty of kill steal and destroy...because they are in need of nothing. It is utterly contrary to the Holy Spirit in this age…who has openly spoken the righteous and holy commandments of “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven”…additionally those “in Christ” “are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.” Murder is not the same as love or prayer for an enemy...as the Lord Yahshua is pointing out...murder in thought or deed is the sign that one is not a "son of God." Those who agree with or do these things are not “sons of God”…these have lost their way and…”You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44 NASB) This brother killing brother we see in the Middle East is contrary to these commands…by any justification. The absolute destruction of a people…any people…”is” the mark of the dragons beast…and the proof that its image has taken its place in the minds of these men…and those in support of it…they are judged already. It was Paul who wrote…“Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Romans 12:19-21 NASB What we see happening in the Middle East does not reflect Christ’s instruction for His own…which bears the characteristic of… Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good…murder has never been considered good since Cain. To be contrary to these simple commands and teachings…is defined as “anti-christ” in action. So…we see you Neighbor and the other law-keeping Christ rejecting Judaizers around here…the only ones who are fooled…are these…for they have rejected their only means of reconciliation to God…along with their fellow murders...all the while believing they are doing God a favor. Tatwo...:)

Luigi, As you wish...friend as you wish...however...the evil deceptive spirit that brought the harshest of judgment upon Israel for the rejection of the Lord Yahshua Christ in the 1st century...the same which Paul noted in 1st Thessalonians 2 where he wrote..."God's wrath has come upon them (Jews) to the utmost." The Lord Himself told ancient Israel...and Jerusalem "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luk 19:43-44 NASB) Clearly the Lord has delivered the most powerful judgment upon this people and their seed...and we know it is because of the "wickedness" that was in them. Though that people who were condemned by God and is long gone...that religious spirit is now stronger than it ever has been. This is the spirit that is behind the formation of zionism...a murderous, deceptive, ungodly form of governance that has the unmistakable characteristic of "kill...steal...destroy"...people like this one have been so distorted and perverted as to believe these are the attributes of a Holy and Righteous Royal Priest. That is what you have stirred up here...something I mentioned to you in a post on another forum. The goal of this spirit is to drag you into a fight so that they get you to look and act like them...at least in their minds...it's a trick that can spring a trap...it is spiritual therefore invisible. It makes the Judaizers and law keepers feel like they have truth and power...they have neither. Vile contempt is not considered a "Truth nor a power" except in darkness. You are right to shine the light...brightly...as you are attempting to do...I am simply reminding you to carefully proceed with this one...he is full of himself just like the Pharisee's who said..."we have no king but Caesar." Tatwo...:)

Continuing on... “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly” An unmistakable and profound change has occurred here according to Paul. “Flesh, blood, and natural lineage…i.e. Israel” are no longer the determinate factor in regards to who is a “Jew” or not. This all seems so basic…elementary…yet it remains one of the greatest enigmas. “And circumcision is that which is of the heart” this is reference to the seat of the desires, feelings, affections, passions, impulses, or mind. I liken it to the soul…that is transformed by the renewing of the mind which is the work of the Holy Spirit…which Paul addresses next. “by the Spirit, not by the letter” The “letter” here is in reference to the “Law” that had a requirement for the fleshly circumcision of the male genitalia…of the natural or ethnic Jew. Paul is not saying circumcision is not an element of the “inward Jew.” He is simply showing that since the “inward Jew” is no longer a “fleshly being”…there is no need for another “fleshly being to fleshly circumcise anyone as was done according to the letter.” The principal we see here is first the natural and then the spiritual. Now…a “spiritual Jew” is one who has a “circumcised soul or heart” which Paul describes in Colossians 2 as…”you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.” He wrote…”the circumcision by Christ…of the heart…is the removal of the body of the flesh.” Christ is “Spirit.” This goes with what Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians 15 where it is recorded…”that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” Those who are “flesh and blood” are not eternal…and cannot enter the Kingdom of God today or ever. Those who have had the “body of flesh removed” by the Holy Spirit…are now a “spiritual member of the spiritual Kingdom of God…body of Christ” in heaven and on earth. This is because “in Christ” these are reconciled to God’s divine…pre-creation intension for them “in Christ” thus they are eternal. Theres more... Tatwo...:)

Greetings Luigi… This is a difficult “row to hoe” on this website…that is largely due to the reasoning of the “sons of Greece” who love the praise of men. I intently read the entire forum…this “subject” is also of great interest to me. I can see that you maintained you’re “thought” all the way through to this point…nice job it is fresh and inspiring. You are sharing what you believe is important and necessary…the “sons of God – who love to give praise to God” understand…I assure you. “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly”…Spoken by one who once considered himself a “Jew outwardly”…no? The book of Romans is likely a letter to the family of God in Rome which boasted a constituency of perhaps all known nations and tribes at some point? Plainly stated…Paul changes the definition of what it means to be “Jew”…from “outwardly” or that which is observable by the eye…that which is “natural and fleshly”…to something else… He follows that up with a contrasting reference to the fleshly Jew’s circumcision…“nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh” in reference to the “male genitalia”…here Paul is changing the definition of “circumcision” as well. Paul a “circumcised Jew”…himself…is saying…A “Jew” is no longer a natural, physical, fleshly observable being…and it is for that reason that he continues on to say…“circumcision”…is also no longer of the natural, physical, fleshly observable being either. Something has changed according to Brother Paul…if this change is not grasped; understood, revealed to ones spirit by the Lord Yahshua…it will remain a mystery to those whose eyes remain “veiled.” Tatwo...:)

Greetings Marilyn... These are good questions there are some very good answers here as well…thank you. The scope of this discussion entails years of direct revelation from Yahshua…or from years of love and training under an apostolic father…its deeper than most realize…so perhaps we can kick up an answer…and I will share my understanding…however only Holy Spirit enlightenment will bear the interpretation and it is available to anyone born of His seed. Of course we all know He will…but has not yet happened because God is not done with him…the plan is not complete. I think someone in this thread mentioned this…”For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” That speaks to the answer of your question Marylin…something that goes along with this…is…”And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.” Satan suffered a setback at the cross via a major loss of his power and authority…however he was not eliminated…why? The Lord Yahshua being the “Son of God” who was manifested to destroy the works of the devil…all but destroyed the works of the devil…only to let him live and recover…and recover he did. How was this…“mortal wound”…inflicted? We know that upon His death…the Lord “descended” into the lower parts of the earth…where as He explains to John in Revelation 1 “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.” This is likely what Paul meant when in Ephesians 4 he wrote…”Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.” That scene must have been amazing….think Arnold in “Terminator”…”I’ll be back.” Simply put…”death” being when one gives up the spirit…”Hades” being the location of the souls of men prior to the Lord Yahshua’s arrival there. As Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15 “So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING? O HADES, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?” Perhaps the “near fatal or mortal wound” was the “Truth” that our Lord destroyed the dragon’s ability to bring death (the soul’s separation from God) via sin…and the subsequent captivity of that soul via Hades…to…”the spirits of just men made perfect.” However the Son of God does not complete the destruction of the dragon or his beast at that time…Satan clearly loses his “former grip on death and Hades”…when it comes to those “in Christ” who cease in the flesh. Once those in Christ have completed their journey…their spirit goes back to God where it came from…the body goes into the earth…and the soul goes to God…not Hades. Satan suffered a debilitating handicap at the hands of the Lord of glory…but was not destroyed…why? There is plenty of light on this forum for this endeavor…however something that caught my attention is when “Know Jah” posted this…”I think there must be a deeper reason why God didn't just kill off Satan and Adam/Eve immediately.” She then references "Job"…that connection resonates loudly to me…more than I care to share here. Yet before us...future speaking..is the fulfillment of the “prophetic mandate” for the “seed of the woman…the Son of God…Christ” to “crush the head of the seed of the serpent…the son of Satan…beast…therein bruising His heel”…or as Brother John said it…that He might destroy the works of the devil. One must understand the definition of the seed of the serpent in order have a deeper view into this scenario. “He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” (1st John 3:8-9 NKJV) As one can see…”sin or the works of the devil” is the reason that “Son of God” was made manifest…[your question Marilyn] now we see John write…”whoever has been born of God does not sin”…who is that? Why it’s the “Son of God”…who else? Well in order to understand this…one must note that the reference to the “Son of God” is ”whoever has been born of God…[He who]…does not sin” this is no longer then in reference to the Lord Yahshua only…why? John explains it this way…“For His [God] seed remains in him”…meaning that these are the “sons of God.” John does not stop there…he further states… he [the seed/sons of God] cannot sin…this means right now! How is it that the “Son of God” on the earth right now “cannot sin”…? Because “he has been born of God”…the only way to defeat the devil is to not fall into his trap which produces “sin” which only the Son of god has/can do. This son…being referred to here by John the apostle…is “Christ”…Head and Body…alive on the earth…today and since Pentecost following the ascension…He is growing and maturing…and again future speaking...He will destroy the works of the devil…not the devil…only his seed or offspring…in this age. I’ll leave it there for the discernment of all…though it is but a snapshot. Tatwo...:)

I completely agree Luigi...you are speaking in truth brother...however...the U.S. "is also" in this current predicament...the mainstream media and the utterly censored social or alternative media...are hiding it Brother...they are hiding it...and the good old U.S of A is fixen to to experience something that has never happened and it will be multi level when it happens....birth pangs on a woman in labor... While the world and the religious say...that conspiracy stuff on YouTube ain't real Luigi...lets go back to fighting about the righteousness of Israel as they do to Gaza what was apparently done to them by Hitler...only worse...and wait for the Lord to deliver us from any sacrifice we might be asked to make...and take us to heaven. You are right Luigi...collapse is upon the nations...I added the U.S...the economy of the beast is pressing those who "dwell on the earth"...for those who dwell in heaven...they have been given their own economy...its called the Kingdom of God. Does anyone hear the Lord today? Tatwo...:)

Well "said" Eddy... The truly bizarre reality accompanying the idea that the mark is physical or it is not here yet also says that the beast is not here yet. The concept of the realm of the invisible simply must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Redd..:)

What is the “good news”…and what exactly does it mean to “share” it? If that in deed is what is happening…then it “would” produce what Paul testifies to have happened when he was doing it? Does anyone here see anything close…today? I am attempting to answer that here Sower…there is little to none…qualified spiritual “fatherhood” among the church today. The church is run by orphans today…the orphans are leading it astray because they do not have a “Father” with which to identify as a “Son!”…nor do they have an access to an inheritance in their father…he is a liar. Tatwo...:)