tatwo

The "consuming fire" that proceeds from these witnesses is an entirely different form of "fire" friend...and it performs a different kind of "killing" as well. Item of note...your posts are somewhat "back and forth...perhaps rhetorical" within the post itself...are you doing alright? Seriously...:) Tatwo...:)

You have left me no choice but assume that you are giving me an accurate depiction of your belief in the matter…so I will do just that. In the course of updating my understanding of your position I can see that you have neglected the basis for tribulation at any level. As I have said before…you seem to base your discernment upon the “temporal realm” of life on earth…just like most of “Christianity.” I understand that…perhaps at one time I was in that place myself…however I am not there any longer…I have grown in my understanding of things in the invisible realms…light and darkness. Just look at your own description of your own view TFOC everything you base your discernment upon is observable physically to the human eye. If that is where you feel the complete understanding for all matters of tribulation comes from…so be it. However allow me to remind you that there are invisible forces at work in the “world” of which you do not mention. Indeed...these are invisible elements and factors that you either just do not include in your dissertation or perhaps do not see. These are the absolute basis for tribulation in creation and on this earth…and where any and all tribulation flows forth from. Tatwo...:)

Again…you are correct when it reaches that point which you describe and all will know something’s up? Additionally I noticed that you TFOC and most others always point to “tribulation” as a “temporal and physical” reality and it most certainly is…however that is not “all” it is. Perhaps…assuming that your deconstruction and discernment of the elements you have listed is correct…right? Well there you go…as long as “you” do not “see” the “physical signs” with your “physical eyes”…those which you have determined are in fact the “official physical temporal” signs of tribulation…we are all fine. I am not trying to be facetious here…no…not at all. I am simply posting my interpretation of what I believe you are telling me. That we may understand each other and proceed if that is in fact what we do. Tatwo...:)

Well yes and no…”yes” that I see what you have suggested here people and countries going through tribulation. “No”…that is not “singularly” how I define tribulation. I do see this definition as pointing to an “underlying” cause. While this can be one way to define the tribulation as in Revelation or for that matter the words the Lord Yahshua spoke concerning the end of the age. Yes there is a culmination point I see that. However…to think that this just happens in the fashion that you and so many others describe…which seems like “one day there is no tribulation and the next day the whole world is engulfed in tribulation”…this is not an accurate depiction TFOC…not at all and this is not how the scripture lays it out…as you may see. Tatwo...:)

Agreed indeed...and just a note...there are better sources than YouTube which has become so censored. Perhaps we start a forum on this very subject and compare notes? Tatwo...:)

Sure indicating a gradual "tightening" of the economic noose...so to speak. Important point! Agreed...however Luigi...so often I see "Christians" (not you here) treat the scenario that you are laying out in the manner that one would flip a light switch on and off. I just do not see it that way at all...and there's a good reason for that I might add. In order for the "world" to be "experiencing the worst of economic times"...there is a "run up"...a gradual "spin up" where all the pieces are being organized and systematically put in place. It is my observation that this "world" is ever so deep in that process already. Much deeper than nominal "Christianity" even care to consider. Additionally I might add...many nations are currently in a depth of economic disaster that they will never recover...as that nation. Tatwo...:)

Perfectly in other words there are no options here for you? And of course here is "your perfect understanding" correct? You have these two witnesses going forth "tormenting and killing anyone they choose" to whom then...are they bearing witness? The reason I ask is because I cannot see the Lord Yahshua Christ or any of the sons of God ever doing such a thing. Essentially that could be seen as undermining the Gospel of the Kingdom of God on earth...really. Additionally that type of action is uncharacteristic of the Lord Yahshua. Perhaps we can "sharpen" your "perfect understanding"...or not? Tatwo...:)

Yes...yes as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time working through both the end of the age and more specifically the rule of the beast...I can agree with you here...nice work bro...thanks. Have you "seen" the beast in action? Have you seen the witnesses? Just curious... Tatwo...:)

Why such an almost "fatalistic or perhaps better said dogmatic" perspective TFOC? I understand that according to your admission "you" believe that you are not in what you define as "tribulation"...which is fine for you. However at the same time there is an affliction upon the world that has never been seen before...and it grows and increases in strength day by day...it has gripped the entire world and is not stopping. I have followed it closely for nearly 20 years. If you are "not currently in the tribulation" good for you friend...and it is either that or you simply cannot discern its source and effect. As for those who bear the "mark" of the witnesses...they are here of course...once again...simply because "you" TFOC don't, can't or have not seen them does not mean they are not here... I urge you to "soften" your approach to these things and gain some deeper understanding...and that would be for your own good...TFOC. Tatwo...:)

Shiloh...either you are being facetious...you do not understand...which is it? Tatwo...:)

Yes...it is there that we get the old covenantal prophetic and symbolic explanation. Have you deconstructed it Luigi? What's the connection as you see it? Tatwo...:)

Greetings AdHoc... I am following along in this forum and your following post popped out at me...I saw your challenge to Shiloh...on your Matthew 12 commentary...perhaps it was not a challenge just looked like it to me. I feel your breakdown here left me with a clear understand with what you are trying to show here...and I like the fact that I agree. Lets talk about your conclusion a bit if you will. I feel that this discussion (forum title) is important...and needs greater understanding. I am following with you to this point AdHoc…however the next couple sentences lose me a bit. I think I can see what you are saying with that statement…however…you “say”…”Christ’s brethren are divided into TWO”…now in reference to your John 1 quote…John is specifically speaking of “become the sons of God” it is these that are “Christ’s brethren” correct? Can you be "Christs brother" without being a "son of God" as you see it? One new man…neither Jew nor gentile…a new creation…a spiritual man…which no longer includes those who are not sons of God (no Holy Spirit indwelling)…correct? Only the sons of God have the Holy Spirit…is that how you understand this? Can you define these “light years apart” perhaps? Tatwo...:)

They are more than likely gentiles.The army they command is definitely gentiles. Brothers... In making about "Hebrew, Jew, Gentile, Israeli" whatever natural ethnicity...you miss the point entirely. Allow the Spirit to show you...consider the following verse from Galatians 3 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." Being filled with the Holy Spirit...is to be "in Christ" this is a reference to your "spiritual man - the inner man - eternal man"...it is in Christ. Paul clearly says..."you are all one in Christ Jesus." While in your "flesh - body - temporal - physical" existence...you may be known by your carnal human attributes..."flesh." When your "human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit"...thus constituting the "New Creation - in Christ - One New Man"...Paul is saying we are not to see each other after the flesh any longer. It is by spiritual discernment "that one brother recognizes another brother." According to a "new race" perhaps is another way to say it. Now couple that with Paul's teaching from II Corinthians 5..."Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer." The example Paul gives us..."those who know Christ...today...and are in Christ"...is very clear...do you know Christ? If you do...it is not in or after the flesh that you "know" Him...He is no longer knowable as "the man" that walked the earth as God in the "flesh - Body" in the first century. The two witnesses are "in Christ" and they will not be recognized by their flesh and human genealogy, any more that you can recognize Yahshua that way today...He is a Spirit...you must have "spiritual eyes" to "see or recognize Him"...and that goes for all His family on earth. The "two witnesses" are "in Christ" brothers...and one must be in Christ to "know them and know who they are." Tatwo...:)

Hi TFOC... "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons." (Isa 66:7-8 NASB) "And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev 12:4-5 NASB) Get from that what you can The "Zionist Israel" that came about on May 14th 1948 had been years in the making at least 50...probably more...I have followed it back that far. That history is largely unbelievable TFOC...completely un godly to say the least. Tatwo...:)

R. Hartono…from the “Spiritual Kingdom of God” perspective there is no “eternal value” to this belief structure. Anything that is not of “eternal value” to God…is a “dead work”…a patently obvious rejection of Truth. In its complete denial of Christ as God via its cultural, religious, social practices and beliefs…it is “a” doctrine of the false messiah…who is in bed with a spiritual harlot named…the church. They “masquerade” as the true “Messiah and His Bride”…multitudes are under their spell which will always lead to the denigration the Christ…that is its calling card...and mere mortals can do nothin about it...they do not see it. Lastly…to believe and promote that somehow God is yet beholden to a rebellious, evil, disobedient people…that He condemned and allowed to be destroyed...and that He has “bound” Himself to just “divinely redeem” them in their carnal, perverse, murderous, mindset from Satan to Christ…utterly destroys the fabric of the “New Covenant” and the character of God…relegating the “blood of the Lamb” to nothing and denying the entire body of “work” the Lord Yahshua has put together…this is tantamount to the pre-trib rapture. God is not in this therefore it is darkness. Tatwo...:)

R. Hartono...as for the second of your questions…“what is the good purpose for the world”…for the “world”…the “world” can defined as the “kosmos” the dragons kingdom or beast. From that perspective “modern Israel” is testifying in itself as one of the perfect sons of Satan…whose character and nature may be defined as “kill, steal and destroy.” This is openly and blatantly obvious to all. I could not bring myself to use the term “good”…as I define “good”…Hartono…in application to the subject matter. The depths of depravity and blindness to which one must descend to believe that our God has “special favor in wait”…due to an ancient “unfulfilled covenantal agreement”…with a “nation” that commits repeated atrocities to the point that it literally defines them and their entire history…as a people and a nation…sorry…that just does not “evoke” the definition of “good” in me. Not only that…what about this…the Lord Yahshua Himself the “Word of God manifest in the flesh” said these things about Israel while He yet walked its streets…Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down. they will level you to the ground and your children within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; Jerusalem will be trampled under foot. This all came to pass exactly as “He – the literal fulfillment of all the Law and Prophets” said it would…read it again… Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!...And…they will level you to the ground and your children within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. Look up that word “desolate”…”wilderness desolation waste” a place where God is not worshipped. This was spoken by the Son of the Living God who is seated on the throne of His Father and operating out of a position of “absolute” authority and power. To twist the letters from antiquity to the point that they supersede the “Word” of the Lord Yahshua Christ who in Himself fulfilled “all the Law and Prophets”…is a complete act of deception…which is the calling card for the serpent…further…to believe that this twisting is Truth…leads to the drunkenness of impropriety that these teachers profess…you people need to “sober up.” The problem with thinking that God has some special favor or promise set aside for the future of “ethnic, natural, temporal Israel” is that it completely makes the Lord Yahshua Christ yet subject to the Law and Prophets…as opposed to the utter fulfillment of all the “Law and Prophets.” This then reduces Him to merely another Jewish man. Which is exactly what the Pharisees’ attempted to do…the multitude that followed them followed them into their destruction and annihilation...this includes up to and through today. This love affair with a fulfilled “lesser covenant”…is what causes the blindness Paul addressed in II Corinthians 3. This veil is one of the greatest deceptions ever perpetrated upon the unsuspecting human soul…Paul said it like this…“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.” (Heb 8:6-7 NASB) The Lord Yahshua Christ fulfilled all that the former covenant required in the Law and Prophets…bringing us to a better covenant. The reader must understand that those who attempt to elevate the “Law and Prophets” of antiquity…over the actual “Word of God Himself”…who is both the “author and fulfillment” of all the “Law and the Prophets”…is…blasphemy…it is the voice of the Daniels little horn which became larger...speaking into the “world” via the deceived souls of mere men. Tatwo...:)

Greetings R. Hartono, I first saw your OP over a month ago…and since then it is been bouncing around in my mind/spirit…somewhat. I would consider your question and read some of the continuing responses and sort of allow the responses to meld together in my mind to form a picture of what is being said. To your first question…”If God created modern Israel 1948 what is the good purpose for the world” ”If God created modern Israel 1948” seems like one question…and “what is the good purpose for the world” seems like another question to me…so I’ll deal with them in this way. ”If God created modern Israel 1948” Perhaps the Lord may reveal His Truth here…the history of Israel prior to 1948 and since…can be described in one look at what this “Israel” is openly doing today. I pity the fool that thinks our Lord Yahshua has anything to do with these evil actions…or this nation as a natural nation...that is a flat out rejection of the one who fulfilled “all the Law and Prophets”…in Himself. Its what they always did and do. Tatwo...:)

This is the best way to pursue Christ...around and around for months rehashing the same ideas, concepts, contexts etc? If that is you...fine...meanwhile the beast is enlarging itself in your mind unbeknownst to you. I told you so long ago...the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two elements of the "Royal Priesthood"...the King of kings and the High Priest on one throne...and that is the throne of God. All you need to understand is who is it actually that sits on that throne...because you clearly do not know. No Charlie...this is not a nice comment...its a mixture of truth and error. Yes..."God is much too great for us who are in the flesh to understand." However those who are in the "flesh" are not "in Christ"...if you do not have the Holy Spirit you are none of His. One cannot be in the flesh and be in Christ...Christ is a Spirit man...He is eternal...one can only be in Christ via the Holy Spirit. If you wait to be "in the spirit" until after you die...you will never be in Kingdom of God. That is why when we turn from our wicked ways by repentance we "die" to that old sinful nature...we are then symbolically "buried" with Him in baptism...and "resurrected" in Him as we come up out of the "water/Word/blood" we then have a eternal spiritual existence "in Christ as Christ." If that basic premise is not grasped or understood this entire exitance is futile regardless how much one thinks they know.

Some level of persecution there no doubt Joe…same thing for me…sometimes painful all the while it makes us stronger and it works towards our maturity and purification. You and I know the Lord and the early family we read about in scripture…suffered similar and worse…which is a sure indicator of what lies ahead for the sons of God. Granted there is a significant amount of “propaganda” along with “polemos”…which is an interesting word used for “war” in the New Testament…primarily used in the book of Revelation. It means “war” however the indication is that it refers to the idea of a “war” of ideals, culture a refutation of a specific opinion or doctrine…a war of words essentially…producing thoughts to entrap the mind…so to speak. All that to say that “prince of the power of the air” or the “god of this world” is engaged in a “spiritual” battle for the “minds (psuché/soul) of men.” Of course why else mention that war against the saints is with a beast whose…“mouth uttering great boasts” (Daniel 7:20) and “a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies” from Revelation 13:5-7. Again “one who speaks like a dragon” and “the image of the beast would even speak” from Revelation 13:11 & 15. Humanity…the wicked and the righteous are both subjected to this “polemos/ polemeó” style of “war.” Joe…it’s the “Operating System” of the dragons “Kosmos”…his “world”…his “beast.” This is all to produce “fear” which gives the serpent the keys to their souls…this beast is now global…its propaganda is global…its war of words is global….it is devouring, crushing and trampling down the remainder with its feet. Humanity is in a “spiritual tribulation” like creation has never seen…nor can mere humanity see it. Per the norm…tribulation is seen in the spirit realm prior to manifesting openly in the physical temporal realm. This basically explains why so many people including “Christians” are caught completely unaware. They could not “spiritually discern” on their own…nor do they listen to those who can spiritually discern the times we are in…which is why it comes upon them like a thief in the night. The “birth pangs” are intense at this point. The carnal and immature Christian is waiting for a “physical…temporal” indicator that “tribulation” has begun. That is interesting because the deceptive propaganda that we reveal to ours Joe…which they largely reject…are some of the signs that creation is much deeper into this “tribulation” than most are willing to accept. Regardless of all of this…the nominal Christian has allowed the serpent to twist the “words of God” in their minds…think ”Adam & Eve.” They cannot “spiritually discern” (see, hear, understand) all that is transpiring all around them. Because their “mindset” is tuned to the “frequency” of the “beast” that has convinced them that it is god. (666) They really feel no need to do anything…really…to prepare for any actual tribulation…just sit back, wait and watch for a magical invitation from the Lord Yahshua Christ to escape. No it is most definitely not going to happen that way. While the Lord will ultimately be revealed along with His own…it is the harlot (church) and the birth of her offspring that have much to experience in the weeks, months ahead. Of course nominal Christianity won’t catch this…but it’s here and intensifying. The multitudes have no idea that this war is happening today…just as it has been since the Garden of Eden…which is an example of “polemos” in action. It is there for our reference…speaking of the way the serpent fooled Eve…twisted the “words of God” to manipulate and control her mind and thoughts. She was convinced of that which was not real, not truth…but a lie…that led her to being deceived about who God is. The serpent was able to produce sound…words…reality…to twist the “words of God” to such a point that her mind lost track of what God had actually said…she got lost in the tumultuous emotion of her soul…and she embraced “wholly” the deceptive lie the serpent deceived her with…which became truth to her…causing her and Adam to act in disobedience towards God. In this…Adam forfeited the rule he was given by his Father…via the deception of words and the serpent. As we can see…they ended up in “fear”…which when believed as truth…convinced them that they were just another random creature or element of creation. This explains “why”…at the moment they realized that they were no longer “clothed in the glory of God”…fallen…they felt they were naked…and that they should hide from God…a preposterous thought…no? Now they must “provide” for themselves…get some new clothing…and “protect” themselves…”hide” from God??? All of this is evidence that speaks to the reality that the eyes of their souls were opened and they began to “live out of their souls” versus their spirit as it was before the fall. “God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in the Spirit of Truth.” Which Adam and Eve must have done prior to the fall in order to daily commune with God? Humanity cannot approach God from the “soul” Joe…it can never be…mans approach to the God and Father of creation is from his spirit…the one filled with the Holy Spirit Joe! You already know that. When humanity lives out of their soul…they are only concerned with their provision and protection because they must do whatever is required to “live.” This is where the twisting force of polemics and propaganda gets its power…when one is in the place where they must rely upon themselves to live because no one else will take care of them…that’s where “fear” sets in. Fear is what the enemy used to “deceive” Adam out of his God granted authority. Something changed drastically for Adam and Eve…and that is quite obvious. We must remember…”in Adam all die”…”so also in Christ all will be made alive.” Only “in Christ” is ones spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit…that is what it means to be “made alive.” Becoming one with the Godhead spiritually is what is in view here…while living in this life…as one endued with “power from on High.” This is to be the testimony of Christ on the earth until the testimony is complete…and the Spirit and the Bride say come. It is the restoration of the “authority and power to rule”…once entrusted to Adam…brought forth in the son of God…”Christ”…in the earth. “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.” This will continue as it is…until the Head removes the veil between the “invisible spiritual and temporal physical” and reveals what He has been doing in His creation…since He…put it forth for His purposes. This devil…is not yet destroyed Joe…as you well know. Thus…the “work” of the Son of God is not yet complete…no…the Son of God “is” being revealed on the earth to reestablish the “rule of the Father” once entrusted to His Son…Adam. When the Son destroys Satan’s beast…”on the earth”…His testimony will be complete…and Christ…Head and Body will be glorified with the glory of God…moving into the next age as its ruler and then “beyond!” Tatwo…:)

Ok so that first post went over somewhat as I expected…though it got a few looks and maybe even a read. I had a sense there may not be many responses…prior to putting it out there. In any case…thank you to those who looked at it…I hope it was helpful in some way to someone. We have been living in what I call a 3:30 world for a long time now and we were trained for that in many ways. 3.5 minute songs, commercials, video segments and it has all crept into the reading genre now as well. Anyone familiar with the TL;DR To Long Didn’t Read…yeh if a document or writing or post “looks” to long…people often time will bail on the whole thing. For “Christians” it has been a useful habit for stuffing time with Lord Yahshua into a short period where it is convenient…it won’t take too long and we only have to consider the parts we like. The Lord referred to this condition in this way…”while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” So they do “see” and they do “hear” but they don’t understand. It means they only “see” and “hear” what they want to “see” and “hear” and they do not understand Truth, Him or the gospel of His kingdom. I have found that you cannot show or tell those folks anything other than what they already want to hear and believe. Their condition is that of “deaf and blind” I think anyone can understand their challenge. At the end of that first post I stated that I will post a perspective of the “world” also known as the “kosmos” or the devils ever increasing “beast” around us today. One may be surprised…so here is a brief look at the world around us today…as can be seen from virtually any vantage point one might be coming from in this world today. As I stated…here is a somewhat brief synopsis of Satan’s kosmos today…which I will call the second of the two main contexts of scripture…”the opposition to the man in the image and likeness of God”…the first being “the man in the image and likeness of God.” There is no way that if I were to engage in writing about what I see happening in our towns, cities, counties, states, nations and around the world…most could receive it. It is either too bizarre for the modern mind or the reality of it is to such an intensity…that to ignore it seems to be the best way to “live” with it. Some cannot see what is transpiring around them and their world…others bury their head and pretend it is not here and it is not real. I think that definition covers the majority of people these days…one side of ignorance or the other. Additionally I see two other groups…however they are decidedly smaller in terms of numbers…one group is those who see the looming catastrophe and are pushing back against it…the others are the sons of God who increasingly understand the Lord Yahshua’s plan in all of this due to His intimate direction. So in being in the last category via salvation and its subsequent rebirth...I am availed the opportunity to look boldly at not only what is happening…but both what has happened and what is going to happen. If you are reading this…you will make up your own mind to believe as you wish…as it should be. Let’s start with the increasingly reduced food production that is taking place…really it is an all out attack upon food production to be forthright…and its global. Connected to this is the artificial production of “lab grown” food and the incoming “insect protein.” Maybe it is the incredible attack upon the human immune system and the “sickness and death” that has been brought forth via “modern health care.” Yeh there is “significantly” increased “all cause mortality” on the earth today…with the “industrial medical/pharmaceutical complex” in charge of human health and well being. There is the economic crisis that is leading humanity towards the greatest financial collapse ever…including an increased possibility of “civil war” in some measure. Traditionally economic collapse sets off a falling domino effect of destruction leading to the most inhumane conditions and destruction. How about the current immigration process that is happening in all of the “western world”…borders open to people whose homes are being decimated by “political upheaval/civil war” to the point they need to leave or die. Fine but along with them likely comes the organized groups of militants from the countries the “west” has devastated or destroyed in some way for many years. Some of these guys are on a mission of violence…and are trained, organized, and weaponized…it’s already happening in Southern California. Consider law enforcements lack of duty in so many big cities where criminals walk away without conviction…and people live in an existential fear…clearly an increase in “lawlessness.” Money has become too expensive for a large section of people in the west…who are working harder than they ever had too…those who are working…for a significantly diminished quality of life…and it is not uncommon for them to be packing increasing levels of personal and credit card debt. Many banks have failed…and it is continuing and will continue…this according to the Federal Reserve chairman…is your bank on that list? Imagine how that plays in the minds of mere men? How about housing and rents…continually rising to a point where an increasing number of folks are homeless. The whole energy scam eh? Let’s shut down the power plants that are producing the energy our economies run on…and go green…you know the renewable power of the sun and the wind. Of course I know that the sun and the wind can be harnessed to generate power…however there is neither the natural resource nor the money required to keep the earth operational at its current energy levels nor anywhere even close…yeh…that spells “significant” change for our future. Then the climate change hoax…I am not denying that “climate changes” or that it is changing…but the whole CO2 carbon dioxide emissions concern that is happening is completely absurd…the greatest deception since 2020. In order to keep the planet from raising 1.5 degrees in temperature by 2030…we need to curtail, capture and in some ways stop the production of CO2 emissions. According to the powers that be…the biggest contributor in the world of excessive carbon emission is…livestock…a significant portion of our food chain. That’s only the half of it…the mega corporations which include the biggest banks in the world have created and are implementing a process of measuring and monetizing a standard of Carbon Emissions (CE)…Carbon Intensity (CI)…Carbon Footprint (CF)...by which they intend to monitor and implement a control mechanism over humanity…oh yeh and its farther along that most realize. There is a huge effort to implement digital I.D. which includes tracking of “biometrics” and then digitally link it to a new “digital currency” of some type. Some say “Central Bank Digital Currency” while others say it will be a new form of “Crypto-currency” such as “Bitcoin.” In any case it is digital…can be tracked, traced and programmabley controlled…can anyone say “Panopticon?” This is just a brief…look at issues that humanity is dealing with globally right now…and will continue to have to deal with in increasing intensity moving forward. All these markets, industries, plans, ideas, objectives all of it is the work of the god of this world…the prince of the power of the air…the dragon, serpent, devil, Satan and his beast. He is near to obtaining global control of all that human life depends upon. I am pointing this out to whomsoever needs it as a warning…for those leaving in the rapture…keep watching and waiting…don’t however look at the rising tide of deception and suffering that is swallowing humanity whole today. So you have the God and Father of creation…who out of His eternal self…put creation in place to bring forth to Himself…a son…a man child…entirely in His image and likeness as His inheritance from the earth…which He is presently doing and going to complete…in Christ. You have the enemy of God whose storied history is ultimately to gain control of the entire earth…which he will…and this includes a number of past attempts to attack and to destroy the son of God. This epic battle is “now” people…the beast is entrenched and is increasing…the only one who can and will destroy his kingdom is…”Christ Head and Body” whom is being brought forth as you read this and will one day appear mature to the full maturity and stature of the Lord Yahshua Himself. If you have eyes to see and see….if you have ears to hear and hear…you need to understand the sound that is coming from heaven today. “See” you next time Tatwo...:)

Greetings This may go nowhere with many…I am OK with that…I am called to the maturing sons of God on the earth today. In my perusal of these forums over the years…it is more than obvious that most of the time I am simply reading another version of something that has been completely hashed over and over to the point that I get the sense...that most who are involved in that kind of banter think that is what it means to “stand” for the gospel…I too am guilty of this from time to time…I do not wish to do it ever again. If you like that…get all you want there is plenty to go around. When whatever it is that the Holy Spirit wishes to communicate to whomever He is “speaking”…it is considered the revelation of Yahshua Christ…and it is only to the sons of God. The religious and worldly cannot receive it because they do not have eyes to see and see…nor do they have ears to hear and hear…so…neither do they understand. This is simply because when one is in that place they are “blind and deaf”…I am not reaching for them. They already believe what they believe nothing can change that and the Lord and scripture tells us that very thing. Granted…the Father is still reaching for the infants, children, and the carnal…but that is not what I am talking about or who I am talking too here. No…I am talking about a Father who is raising up a son from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. A corporate son known as the Body of Christ which is coming forth today and one day soon will be mature to the full stature that belongs to the Lord Yahshua Christ…its Head…and will be revealed to a creation longing for His appearance. There is wisdom for our day coming in the form of the revealed mysteries hidden in God from ages past…both that which was prophesied in antiquity and that which has never been revealed in creation before. Even now the heavens are “pregnant” with the intentions of the Lord to be rolled out upon the earth. There is a more sure word of prophecy available to the sons of God today in regards to the end of the age we are living in. A light for our prophetic pathway…primarily the light is to show us the sure foundation upon which we are established and where our Lord is taking us. Additionally as the Lord Himself increasingly appears in His temple…on earth today…things that have been hidden in darkness are beginning to appear as well. It is something like when Lake Mead was drying up over the last couple of years…it began to reveal things that had sunk to the bottom of the lake…including bodies. The Kingdom of God and the Kosmos of Satan is being exposed. I am not trying to get anyone to believe me or disagree with me for that matter…the truth is I don’t really care if people disagree with me or not. I am only presenting what I have been given to those called to receive it. I am open for discussion and learning not another dead work. If I am done here…I am done and will cease. Most believers and the religious really do not comprehend the reason our God and Father established creation in the first place. Simply put…He established creation to abundantly support His son…five days to establish creation and on the sixth day He brought forth into a plush and abundant creation…His son Adam…thus initiating the process of bringing forth “a man in the image and likeness God” Himself. Adam himself was not that man…though on earth he was the initial model in what would be produced over the millennia. Our God and Father of creation sees the end from before the beginning…He obviously knows how this is all supposed to play out…according to His will…which He is sharing with His sons today. The purpose for the created heavens and earth was to bring forth a man in the image and likeness of God…and your probably thinking that it was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ…however…He was the pattern Son…He is the one for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, and He is focused on bringing many sons to glory of God through their sufferings in the flesh…exactly like the only begotten Son in whom the Father was well pleased…Himself. So yes of course He is included in the process of the Father bringing forth the corporate son…the Body and Bride of Christ, the temple on earth and in heaven in which the eternal Spirit of the Living God dwells. The pattern Son Yahshua…is the Head into which the Body is being fit…that is what the Lord Yahshua is revealing of Himself to the sons of God on earth today…in their peculiar and unique eternal purpose in His Body…they are being loved raised and trained to bring back the righteous holy standard of God this world has rejected. That I submit…is the primary theme of all the scriptures Genesis through Revelation…the Father bringing forth in His image and likeness…who He is…into creation in the form of a son…this is so humanity can interact directly with the Father…spirit to Spirit…thereby being reconciled back to God. The secondary theme of scripture is “the opposition to the man in the image and likeness of God.” Satan of course…the devil, serpent, dragon as he is labeled. Since the Garden of Eden this serpent has been perfecting his craft of deceiving the souls of men via lust and pride which is what his “world” or “kosmos” is built upon. It is time now…today…for the called sons of God to come into a deeper understanding of these two primary themes threaded throughout all of scripture. The mature sons of God will be squaring off with the mature son of Satan to end this age…and the judgment is for the saints...we have already seen this proclaimed. Next I will post a perspective of the “world” also known as the “kosmos” or the devils ever increasing “beast” around us today. One may be surprised… Tatwo...:)

Conclusion and part 4 “And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.” (Dan 2:44 NKJV) “In the days of these kings”…is when all of this is to have it genesis…first century as I see it. It was in these days that the “kingdom of God” (Stone) came to the earth as the “Son of God…Yahshua Christ” He brought the Spirit kingdom to earth and established it…in Himself…as the first born of many sons. Hence its earthly genesis…it will continue over at least the next two thousand years to grow in authority and power. The Son of God…the pattern Son…the archetypical Son…who brings forth many sons to God…these are they who are led by the Spirit of God…those which the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of…those sons of God through faith in Yahshua Christ…the ones who are predestined to adoption as sons to Himself…those sons whom the Father chastens because He deals with them as sons…yeh that Son of God and those sons of God in Him…yeh we are getting a picture of the completed Christ here. After all…isn’t that who Daniel saw above the waters? Isn’t that who Ezekiel encountered as wheels within a wheel? Isn’t that who John described as the four living creatures? Rarely do I encounter anyone who realizes these truths…and less who even care. People often forget that all scripture was given to reveal in some way our Fathers single desire in the establishing of creation…the heavens and the earth…which was to bring forth a man in the image and likeness of Himself…our Father wants to be known, seen and experienced in His creation…first there was Adam…he failed…then there was the Lord Yahshua Christ who did not fail…however God was not done there…no…He is going to bring forth that which He set out to bring forth…Father new the end of all matters before any of it began. In these last days of creation…the Lord Yahshua Christ is raising up and bringing forth the completed desire of His Father…a “fully mature son” brought forth by His Holy Spirit…from every tribe, tongue, people and nation…the Body of Christ. The Lord Yahshua Christ is it Head and His Body is to be fully proportional to its Head…measuring up to the full stature of Yahshua Himself. That “Mature Man…the Son of God…Head and Body” is who Daniel, Ezekiel and John encountered…the completed and perfected Son of God…God knew His people in advance, before creation was put into existence and He chose them to become like His Son, that is why His Son would be known as the firstborn among many brothers. That is why I say we were not put here to argue and debate about scripture…but rather to learn from the Holy Spirit the meaning of scripture which testifies of the Lord Yahshua Christ…and to grow up into our divinely intentioned calling or the purpose for which we were predestined to live out…as the sons of God. Tatwo…

Part 3 “Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.” (Dan 2:41 NKJV) The “division” of this “kingdom” is that…it is part “iron” and part “clay” different substances. However this kingdom’s “strength” is the iron…iron…in Daniel…is often referred to as idols and false gods…and the devouring teeth of the beast…evil. So “iron” here in Daniel, is certainly in reference to rule…while “clay” is likely a reference to “men or man including Israel” simply because this is probably occurring during the first century under Roman oppression? Rome symbolized by the iron…Israel and perhaps including man in general…as symbolized by what was once noted as potter’s clay. Now…with the proximity of the “clay – Israel/man” to the “iron - Satan”…and their being in the same context…in the same “image”…I see both of them existing as evil…with Satan/beast “influencing or ruling - iron” over the “potter’s clay” Israel/man…which may indicate that initially it is yet “fashionable by hands” if you will…into something intentional for the beasts plans…I say that because it is all to be destroyed. Interestingly this “potter’s clay” appears to have become “fired or baked” at some point…because it is now “ceramic”…this looks to indicate that is had been “shaped into a form” and then “baked” to a more permanent non malleable brittle hardness…that is breakable and can be and “is” crushed. So I see the “beast/Rome” ruling over Israel/humanity while molding it into its desired form…and then baking it into a hardened “vessel” for use by the devil. “And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.” (Dan 2:42 NKJV) These “toes” being included as part of the feet…perhaps indicate a number…10…beings who are comprised of part iron and part clay…human and demonic…who perhaps represent the ruling element of the feet of this “image.” In which the “clay” element is now becoming the baked “ceramic”…and this through the rule of “Rome - iron” combined with rulers of “Israel – clay” and formed or hardened into the “vessel” shall we say…representing the beasts desire or vision and to be used for the beasts purposes…remember this whole image is ultimately reduced to what can be blown away in the wind. “As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.” (Dan 2:43 NKJV) This alerts me to the idea that the first “they” in vs. 43 “they will mingle with the seed of men” is referencing beings clothed upon in spiritual darkness…identified as “iron” in these passages…whose character is that of “iron” which is described as unbending, inflexible, merciless, ruthless, destructive and murderous…which produces fear in humans to cause them obey. These demonic personages will “mingle, meddle or interact” with humanity…Israel. Of course…a jealous Satan in his bid to become the heir to the throne of God along with his cohorts…attempts to convince Israel that he is their god…via a rule of fear…and it works unto Israel’s destruction save a remnant. That is until the “stone” cut off the mountain comes smashing down upon these toes and feet…thereby progressively destroying this mixture of…“iron and now hardened clays”…ability to rule by fear…over some. Vs. 43b “they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another” this “mingling” looks to be an attempt at “blending” two disparaging “elements or materials…iron and clay” or the rulers and the ruled over. Both of which are listed as an existent element in this “satanic image” which creates “instability” in the feet no less…in other words…the basis of this kingdom’s stability…and is most assuredly comprised of evil spirits. Sounds like a mess… End part 3

Part 2 “You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.” (Dan 2:34-35 NKJV) I see a process if you will…that begins with a “mountain” in which a “stone” is cut out of (vs.45) so it is a “rock” that at one time was…a “part” of an existing “mountain”…and then after the “cutting out” from the “mountain” is complete…a kingdom…now being totally “separated” from the original “mountain”…it is then hurled at the statue…a kingdom…hitting it precisely at its feet…breaking them in pieces. Of course vs. 35 is pointing to the “ultimate and final” outcome of the stone [the kingdom of God] that hits the feet of the statue [the kingdom of Satan] where the statue is ultimately obliterated. This is a picture of the utter vanquishing of darkness…from which emerges the rule of Christ in creation…which now in itself has become a “great mountain”…Mount Zion. I would suggest…this a process over time…as I stated earlier…in view. The “stone” which struck the feet of the statue thereby crushing “them to dust” and then emerging victorious…all occurs over a time frame, from…well…Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar’s day…rolling out until the Lord Yahshua steps out behind the veil and crushes everything evil but the devil…whom gets locked up for a spell. Charlie…the concept of the “stone” which is cut out without hands coming from “one mountain”…then proceeds to grow into a “second mountain” and that one becomes a “great mountain” that fills the whole earth…figures into this scenario maybe more than you have accounted for…I would suggest. Moving on…"You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.” (Dan 2:34 NASB) The actual wording there is more along the lines of “crushing, smashing, pulverizing” those feet into dust Charlie…don’t you think it is an unnecessary stretch to see this as a “separating”…like the “iron” is over there and the “clay” is over here…neatly separated…if that is what you are saying? It does not appear that this is the language used there. Here is why I am suggesting this…the word “crushed, broke…break into pieces” used in Daniel 2:34 and in Daniel typically I might add…is the Hebrew word…H1855 “deqaq” denoting “to be shattered…fall to pieces…crush.” It is also referenced by its root word H1854 “daqaq” which means to “crush…pulverize…ground to powder…to make very fine.” An example of this idea is found in Exodus 32:20 where Moses “ground the molten or golden calf to powder.” The same can be seen in Deuteronomy 9:21…”grinding it very small until it was as fine as dust.” The “Separating or dividing” of the iron and clay verses the “pulverizing or powderizing” of the same…does not seem to relay the integrity of the passage in vs. 34 and it seems that a more accurate definition…is similar to the one found in vs. 35 which actually references that which is being entirely reduced to the place where it can at some point be carried away by the wind… The “feet” which commonly includes the “toes” as I see it…are both a stabilizer and transport mechanism…for this “image.” It makes sense that the Lord targets this “image…statue…beast” at its point of stability and transport…think “tackle”…in football. In His successful disabling of this image in some fashion…or perhaps better said the “power” that this dark kingdom wields, ability to continue as it has…He has forced Satan’s kingdom to have to take an alternative route to maintain and continue on…which it will. So no…I do not agree that vs. 34 is a mere “separating of iron and clay”…I see it as a “grinding to a fine dust or powder” like it says…presenting us with what begins as an attack upon the power of Satan culminating ultimately in an utterly devastating destruction upon the image or better stated…the plan of the devil. That “stone” took the devils ultimate power and authority…forcefully and without question…remember? End of part 2

Ok so this is in part my own exegesis coupled in part with a “sort” of response to what I have read from you…of these verses. “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. (32) This image's head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, (33) its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.” Dan 2:31-33 NKJV The vision of a statue…awesome…and then its description…I am sure the toes were included here. “You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.” Dan 2:34 NKJV While Nebuchadnezzar was “watching” in the dream…he saw the “Stone – Rock – kingdom of God…cut out” separated…divided…”without hands”…in other words by the Spirit of God…from the “mountain”…2:45 It is very likely that we are being presented with the revealing of the separating of the two covenants here. The reference to “without hands” is a direct reference to the seed of the Father…Spirit…in regards to the conception of the Lord Yahshua Christ…without doubt. A firm understanding of what is in view for the term “mountain”…is helpful…the question to be asked is…from what “mountain” is this “stone” being cut? It is perhaps portraying the rejection of Christ Yahshua by Israel…and Gods kingdom emerges as a result…and as such I am going to suggest that it appears to be in reference to “Mount Sinai”…here is my reasoning. Paul tells us in Galatians 4:24b - 25 [Emphasis mine]…”For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, [Ishmael] which is Hagar— (25) for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children” [likening Jerusalem/Israel to the slave Hagar and her slave son Ishmael…yet in Paul’s day] What I am suggesting here…simply put is…the “mountain” specified in Daniel 2:45…from which the “stone” of Daniel 2:34 was “cut out…without hands”…is…in the days of the fulfillment of “this prophecy”…which was occurring during the days of Paul…[early/mid first century]…”Mount Sinai.” Which is likely why we see the corresponding reference to the “Jerusalem which now is”…at that time. Meaning in the days of “this prophecies” fulfillment…it looks to be presenting us with the separation or dividing of the two Covenants at that time…which we know is a fact. Jerusalem being the “centerpiece” of Israel…makes Israel the “mountain” as in “Mt Sinai” from which the “stone – kingdom of God” was “cut”…separated from…”without hands”…which speaks of the work of the Spirit of God. This looks like the separation of Christ (Spirit) and Israel (Natural) to me…the fulfillment of the “Old Covenant” and the implementation of the “New Covenant” in the Lord Yahshua’s’ blood and Spirit. The kingdom of God on the earth goes from “natural nation and people…Israel only”…to the initiating of the ”spiritual nation and people…every tribe, tongue, people and nation…in the kingdom of God or in Christ”…which as we know only increases from there. The scourge and subsequent crucifixion of our Lord was never to be seen as a defeat…but rather an initiating victory in that…it brought the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon humanity…and from that came the initial emergence on the earth of the “Body of Christ…and the kingdom of God” which will one day be the only kingdom left as Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel “saw.” This is something that if understood by the god behind or inspiring those “dark kingdoms”…the ones represented in that “statue”…would have caused him to refrain from crucifying the Lord of glory as we are told. A Further thought in this line of thinking is…the “without hands” reference…which is reminiscent of the fact that God dwells only in a temple made “without hands”…and the separation or removal of the body of the sin by a “circumcision” made “without hands”…both of these indicating references to the unilateral work of the Spirit of God. This stone then…strikes the feet of this “image”…breaking them in pieces. Simply put…the Lord Yahshua Christ brings “His Spirit kingdom into creation in Himself”…and initiates the process of His ever expanding kingdom in the heavens and on the earth…thereby initiating the destruction of the “natural, fleshly, carnal” kingdoms of Satan and man…including Israel which is in bondage with her slave children. End part 1