Robtay7123

I appreciate the amount of time it took you to write that. I don't have that much free time. I may respond at a later date with a different view. I don't think it would come as a shock to you that I believe you are misusing certain verses and incorrect in your interpretation. However, maybe we can discuss this further. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I pray God's Blessing on you. Until I can respond more thoroughly, Peace be upon you my Brother In Christ. Amen.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't believe that Moses law applies to the church. A close look at Acts 15 ( that very subject is what that chapter is about ) and Romans 14, give clear indication that the church was not to be bound by Jewish laws. Also Hebrews 8 seems to do away with Moses law. The apostles even broke their laws, like Peter staying in a Gentile home of someone who had dead animals. Jesus even changed the passover meal to be about him. Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law. HOWEVER, I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws. I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. Anyway, I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free. God Bless.

I'm not sure what you mean by obedience to the Torah. You don't mean telling gentiles to follow Moses law do you?

I think you missed my point. I WASN'T saying that the church or bride doesn't suffer. I was saying that we are not the object of God's wrath, which is what the purpose of the tribulation really is. They are clearly judgements by God himself, not simply the normal suffering of living in a fallen world. Our judgement for sin took place at the cross. God can't judge us now that we have already been judged righteousness. The bride CANNOT go through the specific judgements God has saved for the ungodly, but yes, we will ensure suffering caused by Satan and man until we are glorified. Hopefully that didn't sound too argumentative. It wasn't supposed to. God Bless you.

Of course the apostles were part of the bride. Every saved person since the Holy Spirit came to mankind is part of the bride. HOWEVER there is a big difference between the general persecution by the world on Christians, and the divine judgement on the ungodly, which is what Revelation is talking about. Also, I would say the wrath starts with the breaking of the first seal. The judgements are all connected. You can't just say the wrath doesn't happen until you see the word. The action speaks for itself. Most commentators and scholars agree that the tribulation will be 7 years. This is based on the 70th week of Daniel and the 7 year pact with Israel. However even if the tribulation was only 3.5 years, it wouldn't change anything. True, Lot and Noah were both protected. God didn't let his judgement hurt them. So another possibility could exist. If God were to allow his bride to be in the world during the most intense period of judgement in history, he would have to supernaturally protect her from harm. The bride is innocent. God CANNOT judge her. Does it make sense to you that the bride would be forced to witness the horrors brought on the world? That doesn't sound like the loving God I read about in scripture. Finally, I'm glad you don't dismiss the rapture, even though you call it a different name. I think the word rapture has become an unnecessary stumbling block by believers who wish to nitpick and argue instead of build up and edify. Rapture is a proper word to use. It comes from the Latin and is an English translation word. But it means to " snatch up " which is what I see in the 1 Thessalonians passage.

That's not the same thing. General persecution in this life is not the same thing as God's judgement in the ungodly. The tribulation is specifically a period of judgement by God himself on the world. It goes against everything about the loving merciful character of Jesus to put his perfect sinless bride through that. It doesn't make sense.

That's a very interesting point. But I have another that you might want to consider. The church is the bride of Christ. Christ loves his bride. Do you really think he would allow his bride to suffer, or would he completely protect his bride? Also, the whole point of the tribulation is to judge those on the earth. It may doesn't make sense that his faithful sheep would be in the same boat as the objects of his rage. There must be a distinction. I am curious though. Do you deny the Rapture completely, or just a pre-trib Rapture? No judgement, just curiosity.

I would agree with you if I only looked at the passage you are quoting. However the new heavens and especially the new earth are mentioned in at least 20 books of the Bible. Also, the heavens and earth fleeing away refers to a complete transformation or new teraforming of the landscape of the earth for the new millennial kingdom.

The book of Revelation shows 2 different objects from space that will hit the earth. However neither of these events "ends" life on earth. The book of Revelation clearly shows life continues after every single judgement, even the impacts with earth. Life on earth will never end. It is eternal.

It should be pretty obvious why there are always people trying to predict the end of the world. Simply, it makes them lots of money. These guys know that what they say is false. If they really thought the world would end in a few years, making millions would not be the first thing on their list. Therefore, they know there are enough gullible people in world to spout their stories and make their money.

These are very simple questions to answer. The answer to every single one of them is YES. If you need scripture for any of them, please let me know. God Bless.

I guess I'm confused. The shroud IS a burial cloth. That's what is mentioned in John. Are you saying it can't be the shroud because it mentions 2 cloths instead of 1? Because 1 is the 2 would still be the shroud. Besides this, there are dozens of evidences that prove the authenticity of the shroud. It is not a fake because we couldn't even duplicate it with our modern technology.

Abortion is murder, period. You can't justify killing a baby no matter what. I understand there are circumstances that children should not grow up in, but the right to live and make their own choices is their sovereign right by God. No one has the right to take that away from them. HOWEVER, I want to make a point that nearly always gets overlooked in pretty much every abortion debate. That is this. We NEED to show compassion for women who have gone through abortion. Some women were pressured into it and had no real say. Others thought it was no big deal at the time, but now feel guilty and regret their decision. Others may feel like it was the only choice in the life circumstance they were in. I am not condoning abortion, no matter what. BUT I am saying that scared and confused women had reasons for doing what they did. Jesus still loves those women as much as the babies they had, and he would want us to reach out to them in love and compassion, not judgement and hate. So the next time you run into a woman who has endured such a terrible ordeal, show the love of Christ. Amen?

I don't think the modern church is anywhere close to the New Testament church, except where Paul has to speak harshly of the rampant sin in the church. The church today is very political and changes its position so as not to offend. We in America have a pretty disobedient and cowardly church. Fortunately, Jesus won't judge us based on which church we attend, but on whether we know him and have received his wonderful free gift of salvation. Amen.

The shroud IS in the Bible. John 20:5-7

Verses like Revelation 3:10 where Jesus promises to keep the faithful " from " the hour of trial ( you can only be kept from something if you are not involved in it ) and the example of Lot, where the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah COULDN'T occur until LOT was taken to safety.

Of course there was. Obviously not at first, but we know that Adam and Eve had LOTS of children. So many that cities were built in their lifetime. Can you imagine how many kids a couple could have in 900 years? Wow.

That my friend is a very difficult question. I imagine it will be difficult to talk to many of them. The popular ones will likely have millions of people waiting to talk to them. Luckily we have all eternity. However the one I look forward to the most would be the Apostle Paul. Then maybe Adam.

There can only be 1 first resurrection. However there are multiple resurrection in scripture, especially if you count the individual ones that many people in the Bible experienced.

Every single redeemed person in all of history will populate the earth during the Millennium. I look forward to talking with the great saints and prophets of old.

The verse I keep in my mind is Roman's 8:18. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. This tells us that no matter how huge our problems seem in this life, they are very small in light of eternity. Living with an eternal mindset has definitely helped me see that all of the problems in my life are simply minor inconveniences.