Bruce_Leiter

To whom did Jesus teach us to pray? The Father! It is through Jesus by the Spirit's power that we pray. That's the biblical pattern. Remember that the Father is our Source, Jesus is his Agent, and the Holy Spirit makes it all happen in our lives directly. He is our Friend, but he's also the one who disciplines us with his Word .

I've never been able to memorize anything word-for-word. Why do I have to? Instead, at 82 years old, I have adopted the practice of reading through the whole Bible a chapter or two a day. I have done it many times. Instead of spouting verses, I summarize the Scriptures for people. After all, we are called to witness, not necessarily to evangelize, people. Evangelism is a spiritual gift for some Christians, but we are all called to share what God is doing in our lives with our testimonies (Acts 1:8).

"Predestination?" No, that is not why children go to heaven when they die. Yes, GOD does know who will and will not accept Christ as their Savior. But that is foreknowledge on the part of GOD, not predestination. Scripture teaches us, in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified." First come the foreknowledge, then the predestination. The reason that children go to heaven is because until they understand the law and the sin nature, they, because of GOD's Justice, are not held responsible and therefore have not sinned in the eyes of GOD. God is love and His concern for children is evident in Matthew 18:14 where Jesus says, “Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.” People go to hell because they choose in willful rebellion and unbelief to reject God and His grace. Children are incapable of this kind of conscious rejection of God. Where such rebellion and willful disobedience is absent, God is gracious to receive. The whole question hinges on the meaning of the word "foreknew." Is it mere knowing ahead of time or something else? Do a word-study of the word "know" in the Bible, when it involves two persons, and you'll discover that it means much more than foreknowledge. Adam "knew" Eve, and they had a child. It involves an intimate, loving relationship. As a result, "foreknew" really means "loved ahead of time," which is combined with predestined, called, justified, and glorified in Romans 8:28-30. This conclusion involves the Bible's definition rather than our culture's meaning. I don't know whether all children who die go to heaven. I leave that decision in God's hands. I do know that according to Psalm 51 and Ephesians 2:1-3, we are all born in sin and that some unborn babies are given the new birth in the womb (Jeremiah and John the Baptist).

Dear Christian friends, does no one on this forum have the ability to summarize their ideas and then adding a couple references instead of piling words upon words?

I don't hear an inner voice, but since God has made me a published author of fourteen books, he gives me ideas every day about the direction of my writing and the books he wants me to write. Of course, I always make sure that those ideas are compatible with God's Word and its teachings.

I notice. And it's much appreciated. Because ours are, and we are his descendants. We are eukaryotes, animals, mammals, primates, hominids, and finally humans. The latest version of humans. Our cells, DNA, biochemistry, and anatomy all show our kinship to other living things. That's how God made us. But then, he made us living souls, like Him. And that made all the difference. There's a clue in the fact that evolutionary processes are more efficient at solving complex problems than design can do. Engineers have started copying God's way to solve many such problems. The tools are called "genetic algorithms" and they use random changes and natural selection to hone in on optimal solutions. God, as usual, knew what He was doing. Yep. That living soul, given directly by God to each of us. And one other thing. As God mentioned in Genesis, Adam became like him, able to know good and evil. And thereby potentially capable of fellowship with Him. But being unable to be truly good, we could not become what we were potentially to be. Someone had to pay for that sin. That's why a Savior was needed. Barbarian, how do you interpret the following verses about God's creation of Adam? Is he a special creation, or is he descended from animals? Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. ... Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Gen 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, Gen 2:6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Of course, I interpret them to say that God made Adam as his special creature, not a descendant of ape-like creatures. What do you say about these verses?

My advice is that you don't send this explanation to them. It's too long for them to read, and you don't need to explain to them your actions, do you? Just do what you want to to inform them, and it's their responsibility how they take it. Period. Just my one-cent worth.

I have 150 favorite Psalms, depending on what topic I want to relate to.

None of this discussion is very productive, since the phrases used in the passage are used in opposite ways in other contexts. I think we will have to wait until we're in heaven before we know the answer and maybe not even then. I'll be seeing you then.

Yes. I see you have mentioned Romans 1:20, which is particularly applicable to this point. Well said. Man is a special creation of God, but not in his body, which comes from the Earth like that of other animals. It's that living soul, given immediately by God to each of us, that makes us a special creation. Only after Adam was formed from the Earth, did God then make him a special creation. The issue is that when creation and scripture seem to contradict each other, we have misunderstood one or both of them. And either is equally likely. Given the widely divergent opinions of Christians once one moves beyond the basic doctrines of the creeds, it clearly happens a lot. Fortunately, most of it has no affect on one's salvation. Barbarian, I don't argue with people but do discuss matters without anger. At the age of 82, I find it stimulating. Why do you assume that Adam's body was like the "other animals"? There are similarities with chimps, of course; but another assumption--a more biblical one, I think--is that the similarities have come about because animals and humans have the same Creator, an idea from my college biology professor. Furthermore, what makes us humans special creations is that God makes us able to relate with him on a personal level. The Bible assumes that each human is a unity, not having different, separate parts of our personalities. For me, the Bible's assumptions trump science's ones every day.

Diamond, what do you say to Psalm 19, which says that God reveals himself in two ways, through his creation (verses 1-6) and through his Word, the Bible (verses 7-14)? Your theory of using both science and the Bible sounds fine until there is a conflict. For example, the Bible in Genesis 1 and 2 says that Adam was a special creation of God, whereas evolution says that humans are descended from ape-like ancestors. Here, we need to choose. John Calvin chose the Bible, and I agree with him. He said that the Bible is the lens through which we interpret the universe. That's the point of Psalm 19 and Genesis 1 and 2. It's also Paul's point in Romans 1:18-23 that humans' basic sin was rejection of their Creator: Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things (ESV). I'd be interested in your response to my question as a fellow Christian.

The genealogy from Adam to Noah is in Genesis 5: Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Gen 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.... Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.... Gen 5:30 Lamech lived after he fathered Noah 595 years and had other sons and daughters. Gen 5:31 Thus all the days of Lamech were 777 years, and he died.... Then comes 6:1-4 (you realize, of course, that there were no chapter divisions in the original Hebrew): Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown (English Standard Version). It's obvious to me here that the "likeness of God" in 5:1 is equal in meaning to "sons of God" in 6:2, thus carrying through the genealogy of chapter five. Cain's genealogy is in chapter four: Gen 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Gen 4:17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.... Gen 4:23 Lamech said to his wives: “Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; you wives of Lamech, listen to what I say: I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. Gen 4:24 If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is seventy-sevenfold.” The evil of Cain's genealogy is emphasized, because the evil Lamech here is the last man mentioned until chapter six. Notice that the previous two chapters are the context of 6:1-4 and help us explain it.

DeighAnn, I can see how God inspired Moses to say that the descendants of Seth can be called the "sons of God," because Doctor Luke does so: "Luke 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God" in his genealogy.

Dear friend, your topic heading sent me immediately to John 17. Jesus' prayer to the Father says in part in that chapter: Joh 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth (ESV). Notice that Jesus prays for his disciples and, by application, for us that we be filled with God's joy (verse 13 and Philippians 4:3), God's words (verse 14), be separate from the values and ideas of the culture around us and the devil's lies and influences (verse 15), be more and more holy (verse 17), and be God's witnesses and positive influences in the culture (verse 15a, 18). Thus, we are to be "in the world but not of it."

Jayne, dear fellow Christian, I will answer your points, one by one: (1) Notice the context of your Jude quote, and remember that context is very important in interpreting Scripture: Jud 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jud 1:8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones (ESV). What was those angels' sin? Not sexual sin but rebellion--the sin described in verses 5 and, especially, verse 8--basically, self-centeredness. (2) Please don't argue from the Scripture's silence, what Jesus didn't say. (3) You're making assumptions about the purpose of God's plan, which is often hidden from us. (4) You might do a word-study of the word "seed" in the KJV; it is roughly equivalent to the word "descendant," most obviously referring to Jesus as Adam's (Noah's, Abraham's) Seed, who was the only One who could defeat Satan. This all being said, we discuss a very minor passage in Scripture that is hard to understand. I think that we can agree to disagree and learn better ways to interpret the Bible from each other. Your brother in Jesus' victory, Bruce_Leiter.

I recommend What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography (Amazon).

Fellow believers, one very good principle of biblical interpretation is to study the CONTEXT of any passage. When we consider Genesis 6:1-4 (Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown [English Standard Version]), the previous chapters give us the clues we need to know who the "sons of God" and the "daughters of man" seem to be. Moses traces two genealogical lines from Adam, one through Seth, including Enoch, and the other through Cain, including Lamech. I know we often skip genealogies; but, in this case, they are important for our interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4. (You realize, of course, that the chapter divisions were never in the original manuscripts.) Anyway, this understanding makes what I think is the best interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 that the sons of God are the believing line from Seth, and the daughters of men are the unbelieving line from Cain. The mixture of unbelievers and believers resulted in the earth's corruption that brought on the Great Flood. God gave Noah 120 years to build the Ark and preach the Good News about how the people could escape destruction. Sadly, people didn't listen.

Does your author ever get to verses 18-20, which describe the ties that our needed prayers provide to hold the armor on our bodies, so to speak? Persistent prayer by way of Jesus' victory is the key to winning the warfare against the devil and the demons (for example, 1 Thessalonians 5:17--pray all the time). I comment in brotherly love that you stated at the beginning that your spirit agreed with this author's writings. My suggestion is that you consider studying the Bible itself more than authors who talk about the Bible. I find such study to be much more fulfilling. My other suggestion is that you find a Bible-study group of Christians who are willing to discuss and stick closely with the Bible, perhaps in the church that you attend.

The debate on all the networks tonight at 9 PM ET for an hour-and-a-half ought to be interesting to inform us of the candidates' views.

Fellow believers, the Bible isn't always literal. Look at the Book of Revelation, especially chapter 12. Revelation doesn't often explain its symbolism, but that chapter does. The dragon stands for Satan, of course, and the stars are his demons, fallen angels. The difference is that we know which parts are literal (the history) and which, figurative, by the context of the verses around the verse in question as well as the whole book and the Bible. For example, when Jesus says that he is the Bread of life and that we should eat him in John 6, we need to study the rest of the Gospel of John. All of Jesus' "I AM" claims are figurative, for example, the good Shepherd (he was a Carpenter), the Door to the sheep pen, the Bread of life, and the Light of the world. However, all of his claims say that he is the "I AM" of Moses' burning bush in Exodus 3 and 4 and David's divine Shepherd in Psalm 23, precious spiritual truths that feed our faith.

Fellow believers, Adam and Eve's sin was, as I have come to understand it because I'm part of it too, self-centeredness in rebelling against God that blinded them to any desire to obey him. On the other hand, Jesus' death to sin and resurrection to new life enables us to make spiritual progress to be more like him.

Fellow believer, in my varied and long experience as a teacher and then a pastor, I have observed many unbelievers who neglect the gift of salvation. In churches, there is a lot of passive neglect of Jesus' saving power. People don't want to change, even when God calls us to. They want an "easy" religion instead of a full commitment to Jesus.

Yes, you're right that it appears in other places. I copied it to one that I thought would get more responses and in which it would be more appropriate. The other places were where I responded to people's responses. I'm still getting used to your forum system. Your brother in Christ, Bruce.

My Summary: 1. LAUNCHED, that is, created. 2. LOST, when we fell into sinful rebellion. 3. LOVED through Jesus Christ from the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit as our one God. 4. LANDED on the solid Rock, Jesus. 5. LOVING him and others, as we live for him in the Spirit's power. What do you think? How might it be improved or replaced? Why?

In one word, you are right--REVEAL!