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Orion last won the day on May 22
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Jesus teaches us to be wise, to have wisdom. Indeed, He commands us to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16). And we are instructed by God that "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10), and that "the fear of the LORD is to hate evil." (Proverbs 8:13). Evil is that which comes from man, i.e., pride, arrogance, the evil way, the forward mouth, the haughty look, shedding of innocent blood, etc. God is perfect and our perfect God hates the person who does evil, and will have him destroyed (Psalm 5:5-6 and Psalm 11:5-6). While God commands us to love our neighbors as our selves, and to love our enemies and pray for them, He never commands us to love evil. However, God does command us to be perfect as our Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48), and our perfect God hates the wicked evildoers. (See, Psalms 5:5-6, 11:5-6)
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what if falling church numbers is a good thing?
Orion replied to Ghostdog's topic in General Discussion
Not all who leave a "church" have left the "church". Many view "church" as a building and the pastor that preaches sermons in it. Others view "church" as corporate entity with a headquarters and satellite offices, with by-laws and standing orders, rules and regulations for members only, etc. Neither of the foregoing is the church, the ekklessia, the body of believers called out from the world into the body of Christ. Many so-called "churches" have become cults, and many more are cult-like, hanging onto the teachings of so-called "pastors" that don't teach the pure word of the Bible, but teach and preach to the current culture and teach and preach so as not to violate the 501(c)(3) tax exempt status they hold so near and dear to their hearts. No one that is part of the body of Christ, the true ekklesia, has left the body of Christ, because all that are in the body of Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and no one can pluck them out of God's hand. They may have left a 501(c)(3) entity that pretends to be representing God and pretends to be teaching and preaching God's word, but they have not left the ekklesia body of Christ. Peace -
I've been asking this question for many years and haven't got an answer yet: Where does scripture explicitly say this?
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This is exactly my point. Some entire communities will love their neighbors as themselves, but will have no faith in Yeshua. Again, take the orthodox Jewish community, the orthodox Islamic community, the orthodox Buddhist community, or any other orthodox community that loves their community at-large and their neighbors as themselves, but have absolutely no love for or faith in Yeshua. They are antichrists because they do not believe in Lord Yeshua, in spite of their love for others. Only a true believer in Yeshua will have love for God and love for his neighbor as God has commanded, because they are born again in Christ and Christ is indwelling them.
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A type, or prototype, in the Bible refers to the mention, or first mention, of a person, place, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows a future fulfillment of a person, place, or event in the New Testament. The fulfillment of a type is called 'antitype'. The Greek word for type, τύπος (typos), is the word from which we get the English word 'type'. Typos in the Greek describes a mold, example, template, figure, or warning. In Romans 5:14, we read that Adam was a type (τύπος - typos) of Him to come, (KJB uses the English word 'figure'), and Yeshua Messiah was the one who came, the antitype. What biblical types-antitypes can you cite? Peace
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Having said that, have you ever been to, or watched, a traditional Jewish wedding in Israel? If you have, you will be convinced that the outward display of love at that Jewish wedding is real and tremendous. However, none of them, neither the groom nor the bride nor the families nor the other attendees, believe in Yeshua. Therfore they are outside the will of God, and if outside the will of God they are unsaved, notwithstanding their tremendous love for one another. Do you posit that there are more ways to eternal life besides belief in Yeshua? Yes or No?
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And if someone does all of that, but does not believe in Yeshua, he is not of God and has the spirit of antichrist.
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The will of God is much more than loving others. The will of God is to believe in the Lord Yeshua (John 6:40); the will of God is to be sanctified, abstaining from sexual immorality (1 Thessalonians 4:3); the will of God is to give thanks in everything (1 Thessalonians 5:18); the will of God is to not be conformed to the world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:1-2); the will of God is that we be wise and redeem the time (Ephesians 5:15-17); the will of God is to serve others from the heart, with pure motives, as though we are serving Yeshua (Ephesians 6:5-8); and, the will of God is to submit to doing right by the governing authorities (1 Peter 2:13-16). Now, if someone does not believe in the Lord Yeshua, is living a sexually immoral life, is not giving thanks in all things, is conformed to the ways of the world, is not being transformed by the renewing of his mind, is being unwise, and not redeeming the time, is not submitting to authorities, and is not serving others from the heart with pure motives as if serving Yeshua, he is not doing the will of God. Accordingly, he will thus will be told by Yeshua to depart, and be cast into outer darkness. To be clear, if there is no belief in Yeshua, no matter how moral and thankful and obedient to authorities, and no matter how much service is done for others, and no matter how much love a person displays towards others, without belief in Yeshua they are not in the will of God. (See, John 6:40). The "spirits" in John 4:2-3 refers to people that are either born again or not born again. The "spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" are people of God because they are born again. (v.2). Those that are not born again in Christ, are those who do not confess that Christ has come in the flesh, because have they the spirit of antichrist. (v.3).
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By "Israel", do you mean the Zionist antichrist political State, or do you mean the "Israel of God"?
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I understand what you are arguing, but your argument does not line up with scripture. If a person does not confess that Yeshua Messiah has come in the flesh, that person has the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:2). Nowhere does the scripture say or intimate that all a person has to do to be saved is to love others. A person must be born again and receive Yeshua as Savior. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12). As I've argued previously, many people love others but reject Yeshua. In fact, many people that love others, only truly love others of the same belief system. You must be born again, otherwise you are antichrist. (1 John 5:12).
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I agree that there are many that feign faith in God, but not all who reject God (atheists) feign love for others. Steve Jobs was an atheist, but I believe Steve Jobs truly loved his wife and others. Are you suggesting that atheists who truly love others, but reject God, are saved? Or are you suggesting that atheists, i.e., those who outright reject God, cannot truly love others?
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Good afternoon. I agree that the children of God will love. But It's good to keep in mind who the children of God are, and to whom it is that John is writing: those that are born again in Christ. Now, antichrists can be atheists, but antichrists can also be religious zealots, and atheists and religious zealots can have, and can show that they have, tremendous love for others. Furthermore, antichrists can be anyone that says they know God, but they themselves are not known by God because they are not children of God; they reject the only begotten Son of God Messiah Yeshua. These can be zealously religious Muslims, and Jews, and Hindus, et al. And even though the religiously zealous love others with tremendous love, that love alone does not qualify them as children of God. They must be born again. And if they are not born again children of God, they are condemned. They must be born again in Christ. It is a fundamental truth that only those that are born again of the Spirit are in Christ and children of God. (Romans 8:11, 14). And the standard by which God see us as His children is not just in loving our neighbor as ourselves; it is in loving God, and loving others, and loving even our enemies, blessing them that curse us, doing good to them that hate us, and praying for them that despitefully use and persecute us. (Matthew 5:44). This sort of love (agapé) is God's perfect standard. (Matthew 5:48). I ask rhetorically: can any of us claim that we always live and love with agapé, and that God's perfect standard of love is always reflected in us? However, because we are born again in Christ, we thank God for His sacrifice on our behalf, for His atonement, for Him reconciling me to Himself and for imputing my imperfections and sins to Himself, and imputing His perfect righteousness to me. No doubt, even though we are born again in Christ, we will fall short of His perfect standard of agapé, but because we have received Him and been born again from Above, we have been received by the Father as a son to the Him. (Romans 8:14;. 2 Corinthians 6:18; Galatians 4:5; Hebrews 12:6,7; 1 John 3:1, 2). Yeshua said, "he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me." (Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48). This is an exclusive statement of the Lord. And speaking to the Pharisees that rejected Him, after stating that those that walk in darkness do not follow Him, Yeshua said "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have know my Father also." (John 8:19; see, also, John 14:7, and 14:9 "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father"). So, John is echoing the teachings of Jesus as it relates to loving others, but he is writing to believers born again in Christ. Anyone who is not born again, is an antichrist because they have not received the Lord. 1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father; he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father.
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When I read Paul's writings generally, and 1 Corinthians specifically, and think of the story of #3 brick layer/cathedral builder, I see that they both have in common, and they both understand, that they know they are blessed to be called out and to be doing what they are doing (Paul in proclaiming the gospel and the #3 bricklayer building a cathedral to God almighty). The two also know that what they are doing they do not for themselves but for the glory of God. Peter writes that we who are in Christ must always be ready to give a defense (apologia) for the hope we have in Christ. The word "apologia" does not simply mean to give a reactive defense to our faith when under attack, though it encompasses that, but it also means to be proactive in sharing the good news of our Blessed Hope and Savior to those who are still in darkness, as well as to our brothers and sisters in Christ, edifying always in truth and in love, and always for the glory of God, because we know what Paul knew, what Job knew, what the #3 bricklayer knew: our Redeemer lives. Peace
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Quite right. Perhaps not the best analogy, but I'm reminded of a story told of 17th century British architect Christopher Wren visiting workers at the rebuilding of St. Paul's Cathedral. Wren, in cognito, asked three of these workers what their jobs were. The first replied, "I am cutting rocks and laying bricks to feed my family." The second replied, "I am a stone mason and bricklayer, and I'm building a wall in furtherance of my occupation." The third replied, "I am a cathedral builder, hired by architect Christopher Wren, and I am helping Mr. Wren rebuild this great cathedral to honor and glorify God Almighty." May we all be as passionate as Paul and the cathedral builder in sharing the gospel. Amen Peace
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Paul is speaking hyperbolically to demonstrate to the believers at Corinth the seriousness of the gospel, and that, regardless of the liberty believers have in Christ, the gospel message is to be taught with uncompromising zeal and humility, regardless of the false beliefs of those with whom the gospel is shared. (1 Cor. 1:22-23, 10:32). Peace