Jedi4Yahweh

Well let her tell us how much their church has spent on directly reaching the lost. ( Missionaries, Street Evangelism, Home Evangelism, Hospital Ministry, Orphan Ministry, Elderly Evangelism, Prison Evangelism, etc..) It would be interesting to hear. Considering she says there is too much emphasis placed evangelism.

Nobody should be treating the Gospel as a business. Nobody should be out to make a profit of a ministry. I have no problem with ministries using some of the money to take care of the basic necessities. I applaud your husbands outlook. The reaching the lost is and should be the focus. This is a command not an option. If this is not the focus of a church then there is a huge spiritual problem and obedience to God. To much emphasis is placed on self rather then others. And I see nothing wrong with a church that meets the needs of the congragation....but there is a difference when Churches are building out of excess and lavishness and wants. While only a small fraction of their money goes to spreading the gospel (Street Evangelism, Home Evangelism, Missionaries, etc...) You should check and see how much money your church is spending on directly spread the gospel. This is public information. If its like most churches its less then 15%. God bless,

And that is the point I was making. I think there are some legitimate God inspired TV ministries...but my question is are they being good stewards of God's money that people send to them in good faith. Its hard to believe that when some of them are spending it on lavish things for themselves. (Expensive Cars, Expensive Homes, Jet Planes, expensive jewelry, expensive clothing.) A ministry should be viewed in the same way as a charity organization. If charities are asking for money then you notice them out buying expensive lavish items with it, then its going to throw up a red flag. I can say the same about ministries that spend hoards of money on their Church building. Is this really furthering the kingdom of God or is it about pride and competition, what is the motive behind this excessive spending. As I said, God would much rather see us worshiping out of barns and homes then in multi-million dollar building. Ministers will be held accountable for their use of God's Money.

Amen....nothing wrong with using scripture to back up what your saying. This should not be offensive to believers but encouraged. I could see a nonbeliever getting offended because they do not regard scriptures, but a believer should not.

You have misread my OP as usual. I have not judged any TV ministry? I said I don't agree with most TV ministry for the reasons stated. I didn't name anyone specific. I said ministers, wither they be TV ministers or not will be held accountable for how they use the money God sent them. They maybe good stewards of Gods money, I don't know and unqualified to Judge. God will be the judge of this. I never implied or said that all TV ministries are wrong. Reread the OP and slow down. I have noticed that you are very quick to slash out at some one just because you don't agree with them or like. If you have personal dislike or issue with someone, don't make it a public issue in these forums.

I agree with you brother, which is why I am very careful what ministries I support. I do not understand why so many folks support a ministry with a lavish lifestyle but that is between them, the ministry and God. Me? I am going to tithe to and support those ministries that I know have the right focus. Aman brother you have to plant your seed in fertile soil if you expect to see godly results. Also, we are accountable of how and who we give to.

I agree with you brother, which is why I am very careful what ministries I support. I do not understand why so many folks support a ministry with a lavish lifestyle but that is between them, the ministry and God. Me? I am going to tithe to and support those ministries that I know have the right focus. Man brother you have to plant your seed in fertile soil if you expect to see godly results.

God does not need TV to reach the world: Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they dragged Jason and certain brethren before the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; In China as we speak millions are coming to Jesus in the underground church, yet they are not allowed to publicly speak about their fatih. Its the same for many parts of Asia but TV is not the media for reaching them. Yet, the word of God is spreading like wild fire. The key is Network Evangalism.

I can't help but agree with you, forrestkc. Here's why: The Lord has led me out of a lot of things from my past. I've learned a lot in the process. Your post got me thinking (a dangerous thing! ) I've heard Joyce Meyer, and have enjoyed her messages. The Lord always blesses His word, and He promised that it would never come back to Him void. That said, I have to admit that I don't support her ministry any longer because I find the financial excess disturbing. While Scripture doesn't condemn wealth, or enjoying the fruits of your labors, its pretty clear that we are supposed to use that wealth that God gives us to help others. Jesus said "take up the cross, deny yourself, and follow Me." I understand the need for housing, food, utilities. I lived on the street for some time. I just have a really big problem with someone running a ministry or charity of any kind that's living so "high on the hog" as it were. A $100,000 car? Why? You can still get something reliable for $20,000 or less brand new! There are people in this world who would love to be able to afford an old rust-bucket of a car. A million-plus dollar house, 10,000 square feet? Why? Living in a decent, reasonably priced house would save an awful lot of money, and leave more for helping others. Maybe I "don't understand." I don't know, but I can't see Jesus living like that. Can't see the apostle Paul living that way, either, and look how his ministry turned out! Sorry if I got carried away, but having been in that place where I lived "high on the hog" in the semiconductor industry and loosing everything changes the way you see things. Until all that happened I was happy with the whole "suburban" life-style thing. Then I met someone - Jesus, and He changed a lot of my ways of thinking about things. Your right a ministry is a charity. People give to them not so they can live a lavish life style but so they can use this money to reach the lost. Yet, most of the ministries are not about reaching the lost but rather over Christian living or doctrine. If we saw a charity misusing charity money and buying themselves $100,000 cars and expensive homes we would be in a rage. Ministers, TV and non-TV, will be held accountable for how they use the money people sent them in good faith of the gospel. I encourage you to read this thread TV Evangalism???

Amen brother, that was well worded. I hate hearing viscous hateful attacks on others even TV evangelist, but I love to here the truth spoken even when it hurts.

I disagree with Television Evangelism due to the fact of the enormous cost to air those kinds of shows. I think that money could have be more effectively spent supporting thousands of missionaries around the world taking the gospel to unreached areas. Second most of those shows are not about evangelism but rather about Christian living, Church doctrine and such. Most if not all are not centered on reaching lost...so if you want to learn about Christian living get your bible out and join a fellowship. Christian TV does not equal fellowship. Why waste millions of dollars, just so you hear your favorite scripture and minister. TV ministers will be held accountable by God of how they use and spend the money sent in good faith of the gospel. Including non TV ministers who build expensive glorified Church's in the name of God, while millions missionaries remain unsent and unsupported around the world. Most of the church money should be spent on evangelism and spreading of the gospel not rectifying buildings and building fitness rooms. God would much rather have people worshiping out of barns and homes rather then million dollar buildings. Do you really think God is going to pat them on the back and say nice structured build, I like the gold trimming and tassels, I watched your TV show, I like your tailored suit, while millions of unsent missionaries can't go to the fields nor truly be supported because you have to pay the electric bill or air time. He is going to say depart from me you wicked evil servant, because you were given much but in return you went wasted it on worldly things and not on harvesting souls. I have no problem for ministers asking and raising money as long as the money is going to reach the lost. I don't see this in TV ministers. Paul requested money often from Churches but I know he used it to support evangelism and building the kingdom of God not his Church building. The churches should be a training base making disciples to send to the unreached around the corner and around the world and supporting them. This is how you reach the world. ****Note: I do not want this to turn into an attack on specific ministries but a simple discussion on the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of TV evangelism Whats you thoughts??? .

I'm with you Leonard albeit not quite as passionate. Actually, my wife and I are attending a conference put on by Precepts Ministries (Kay Arthur) in a couple of weeks. We went two years ago and had the opportunity to meet and listen to Ravi Zacharias, Max Lucado and others. Did we stop paying our tithes to go? Did we stop helping others in need to go? Did we neglect our ministries to attend this conference? NO... if anything, I was encouraged to continue serving in the capacity I was called to serve. This is a bunch of junk!! This is a Mary & Martha issue. There is a time to worship and be taught (Mary at the feet of Christ) and there is a time to work (Martha in the kitchen)... "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven..." Ecc 3:1 postscript: I had to remove the link to youtube since it is against our board policy to allow links to that website. I think the discussion can go on without it. Well said brother

Hey Shanee, Good to here you found that Peace. When I first became a Christian I believed that there was no ups and downs to following Jesus. I heard people tell me that Christianity is like a roller coaster, but I brushed them off thinking they we just weak Christians. God has humbled me since, living for Jesus is a struggle. My flesh does not want to die, yet at the same time my spirit wants to live. I read in the bible where many Godly men had ups an downs. Adam, Elijah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apostles including Paul. I have learned that if we don't rely on God through prayer and faith in his word that we will continue to have ups and downs. Life is a spiritual testing ground. My must learn to use the spiritual tools that God has provided us to survive in this world. Sometime God uses our downs to teach us. I heard someone tell me that our spiritual journey is like flowering plant. If the plant gets 24hr of sunlight then it will not grow but wither away...it needs periods of darkness to grow. We are the same, we can't expect all joy there has to be periods of trials and testings for us to grow. Well nice hearing from you,

Aman I whole heartedly agree....John's Baptism was about repentance...Jesus message was of Salvation. Repentance comes before Salvation. Repentance prepares you for Salvation. How can one be saved if they are not truly repentant and sorrowful over their sins.

Wow...that was disturbing but real.

Yes, this is a very heated issue in todays society. I am not sure at all how those Scriptures should be understood. Some say that women should not teach but be silen andt some say that its was simple addressed to the Corinthian church not for other churches but this wrong because Titus was instructed to carry this to many churches. 1Ti 2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (12) But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. (13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve. On the other hand I see scriptures such as this: Php 4:3 And I also beg you, true yoke-fellow, help those women who labored in the gospel with me and with Clement, and others of my fellow-laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life. Women holding ministry positions: Luk 2:36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in many days, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity. Act 21:9 And he had four daughters, virgins, who were prophets. Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant (minister) of the church that is at Cenchreae: So to be honest I think women need to find a Godly balance of being Submissive and Laborers of the Gospel.

This was pulled from : http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4). "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60). "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73). "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34). "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22) "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37) The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123). "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37) Allah himself is really the one slaying them: "It is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself." (Koran 8:17; cp. Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190) Allah "will punish them by our hands..." (Koran 9:14). Jihad is mandatory. "Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (Koran 9:38-39). "And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors..." (Surah An-Nisa 4:75) "Believers, when you encounter the armies of the infidels do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons, or to join another band he shall incur the wrath of Allah and Hell shall be his home: an evil fate." (Koran 8:12-17) Whats your take on this. If your muslim and you follow the koran then you must believe in violence on the non-muslim. Jedi-diah

I was reading the scriptures this morning and I read this passage: Act 17:6 ....they drew Jason and certain brothers before the city judges, crying, These who have turned the world upside down have come here too, Now I am wondering why the gospel is not like this today. Why isn't the Gospel making waves in countries like the US, England and Canada. I do know in other countries such as China, North Korea, India, and many other dark parts of the world the Gospel is flourishing and many souls are coming to Christ by the multitudes. The underground church is massive and is unstoppable and they are turning their world upside down and at the same time enduring much persecution. So, What happened to this fire that once was in early america and england, where fire poured from the alters of Churches and the streets were filled with the gospel. We have become harden to the gospel and truth. The gospel to us is just every day meaningless ritoric. We have made our own version of the gospel. We have become a form of Godliness but we deny the power and truth of it. We say with our lips that we love God but our mouths and our actions say we hate him. We say the we believe God but then deny everything he says to be true. We think we are followers of Christ but the truth is we follow lies, lust and money. The churches in america are nothing more then a dead-religion-feel-good social clubs, where the Spirit of God is not allowed. What happened to evangalism, praying all night, weeping and fasting before God, and thirsting for his presence. The house of worship has become a den of unrepenting liars, haters, and thieves. The gospel has been choked out by the thorns and weeds that we love. We love sin more then God, wickedness more then righteousness. God have mercy on us all and may he turn our hearts in the right direction.

Does anybody have a clue what this guy is talking about? Read Romans 5, and I think it will become clearer for you. I'd be glad to give you more details if you like, but en breve': The 'beast' is your lower, unregenerate nature, which lived, and controlled you before you came to Christ. Now you are a NEW CREATURE, and Romans 5 tells us that the 'old man' of sin is TRULY DEAD. Yet often we hear many Christians talk about how the 'old man' is "trying to come up out of the grave and lead them into temptation. To me this sounds like the passage in Revelation where everyone is 'wondering' at the beast who received the deadly wound, but is still living (chapter 12 of Revelation, I think....). And I say to you the 'false prophet' (The Greek words mean "Forth-teller of lies") of Revelation (the one the Bible says 'gives power to the image of the beast'), is US, when we begin confessing--contrary to the Word of God--that the old man is alive and fighting us. WE OURSELVES empower him, we bring him to life by our own 'forth-telling of lies'! I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. I dont think Danial or Revelation was speaking about our flesh as being the Beast. Even thought it is kind of beastly. I believe he was speaking about an evil and wicked individual in the last days. This is pretty clear in scripture. I dont see how you come up with America as the False Prophet. This is way out there in lala land for me...bro. And for the life of me, I cannot see where you got the idea that I said America is the False Prophet?????? I never said anything of the sort. Oh when you said "US" I thought you meant United States. Still I dont see how you came to the conclusion...it still seems kind of out there.

Canada has a lower infant mortality rate than we do, much lower instances of preventable diseases than we have, and a longer life expectancy than we have. Ask most Canadians if despite the problems in their system would they trade theirs for ours. Believe me Goverment Health Care is not a good thing. Have you ever been to a VA hospital. If so, you wouldn't want to go back. Its goverment run and its poor quality health care. Also, The Doctors and Nurses have a totally differant mentality, they dont care if you dont like them or their serves because you dont have any other options. This is same problem you have in Canada's healthcare they get your money if you use them or not, what other options do you have; They dont care if you have to wait 6 months to see the doctor for a back injury.

Does anybody have a clue what this guy is talking about? Read Romans 5, and I think it will become clearer for you. I'd be glad to give you more details if you like, but en breve': The 'beast' is your lower, unregenerate nature, which lived, and controlled you before you came to Christ. Now you are a NEW CREATURE, and Romans 5 tells us that the 'old man' of sin is TRULY DEAD. Yet often we hear many Christians talk about how the 'old man' is "trying to come up out of the grave and lead them into temptation. To me this sounds like the passage in Revelation where everyone is 'wondering' at the beast who received the deadly wound, but is still living (chapter 12 of Revelation, I think....). And I say to you the 'false prophet' (The Greek words mean "Forth-teller of lies") of Revelation (the one the Bible says 'gives power to the image of the beast'), is US, when we begin confessing--contrary to the Word of God--that the old man is alive and fighting us. WE OURSELVES empower him, we bring him to life by our own 'forth-telling of lies'! I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. I dont think Danial or Revelation was speaking about our flesh as being the Beast. Even thought it is kind of beastly. I believe he was speaking about an evil and wicked individual in the last days. This is pretty clear in scripture. I dont see how you come up with America as the False Prophet. This is way out there in lala land for me...bro.

Thats very well soft spoken of a deceitful propagandist. Who makes his fortune on lies.

yeah that is some good scripture...but I am not sure if it clears the question if there was death of animals prior to adam's sin. I believe there was because God told Adam that plants and animals were for food, which was pior to sin. Therefore there must have been death of plants and animals. I wonder if there are any other scriptures that cover this. Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to all birds of the heavens, and to every creeper on the earth which has in it a living soul, every green plant is for food. And it was so. Maybe we should start a new tread since this is off of subject.

This means that dinosaurs died before Adam sinned. According to the Bible death and disease were the result of man's sin. So now you have death before sin, which is totally contradictory to the Bible. Does the bible say that Adam sin is the result of other species death? I am not disagreeing with you, and think you have a vaild point, but do you have any scriptures that back up that adam's sin resulted in the death of other species. Maybe Adams sin resulted in mans death only not other animals. Death was passed down through the genes how could have Adams sin effected other species since they are not of the same blood, genes or species.

The earth is at the most, only 10.000 years old; therefore their theory is wrong at it's foundation and doesn't bother me in the least. Second Jesus clearly teaches that no one knows what day he will return, so we know for sure now it won't be Dec 21, 2012. Actually if we, hold to the 1 day equals 1 thousand years then it was 6 thousand years for creation (also this is if you dont agree to the "gap theory"). Then you have to add on the day of rest. We have 7000 years right there. This is just creation and the day of rest. Now include the years up until Christ, then the 2000 years that we have... and we will see the earth is not only 10,000 years old. But this mystery as well as many others will be revealed when God permits. Paul's analogy that a day is like a thousand years does not acutally mean a literal thousand years. I dont think Paul acutally meant one day equals one thousand years in God time. It just means a day to God is nothing compared to what a day is to us. The bible also compares the life of man like a vapor to God. Now how long does a vapor last? A few seconds So does this mean that the average age of a men is eqaul and literal to a few seconds to God. NO. Those mathamtical equations are not parallel. Compared to eternity a day or a life time is nothing compared to eternity in Gods eyes. That is what paul was hinting at. Now is the earth literally a few thousand yrs old? I dont know Has the earth been here for millions of yrs? I dont know I know that man has only been here for around 6,000yrs starting with Adam according to the bible, but not sure about the earth. If you read in Genesis there was an evolutionary process. First the water, next land, next water animals, next the land animals, next the birds, then when that process was complete God planted Adam in the Garden of Eden. To me this sounds like an evolutionary process. There many evolutionary examples in animals and plants. With that said I dont belive Adam and Eve evolved, even though they did come from earth. How else do you explain that all the dinosaurs buried under millions of years of lays of earth. This proccess could have taken millions of years. Remember time is not a factor to God. A millions of years to us could be like a day to God.