Iryssa

I just have one or two things to add: With the current economic crisis, it is important to realize that she might not be far off in her asessment. On the other hand, T.J. has a good point: that degree is not a guarantee either. I guess I'm saying you should be prepared for the possibility that good jobs may be quite scarce in the near future...but if you feel God leading you to do something (get married, move to another state, apply for a certain job, etc.) trust in Him! I think this is a wise statment. Whatever people think of you and/or people your age, I do think it's great that you realize this and are grabbing the bull by the horns, so to speak.

Yes, because as Ovedya pointed out, none of us knows what He looks like. We walk by faith, not by sight. That is not God that you see when you look at that picture. And when someone uses that image as a way to remember Christ, they're not remembering Christ, because that's not Him. What they are doing is giving praise and honor to a false god. A god that is made up of paper, stone, plastic, whatever was used to construct that image. They may not be actually bowing down to that image, but when they use that image in their worship time, they are technically worshipping that image and not God. Now many will accuse me of legalism here, but let me ask you, how legalistic is it to say I committed adultry just because I had impure thoughts of someone of the opposite sex? Or that I'm guilty of murder because I hated someone? Those are clues as to what the Father expects of us. John 4 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

It is if that visual reminder is not an actual depiction of God. Hmmm,...It easy to know the answer to this...Its WHY you burn the candle...or incense....If youre doing it to please God, theres nothing wrong with it......When you sing in church..or in the shower...or wherever....Doesnt it sound better with musical instruments?...God likes it with or without the musical instruments, but the added instruments just make it more interesting, right?...Nothing sinful here...I dont think burning a candle in honor of a deceased parent, or with a prayer session is gonna send you to hell, thats for sure....Honoring someone is not the same as worshipping God...Honoring means showing respect...worshipping means,...well,...you know what it means..It means putting God Higher than anything else! Oh yeh,...Candles for churches used to be made from beeswax( for whatever thats worth!) your friend, john The topic is burning candles next to a picture of Christ. I don't have a problem with the candles, it's the pictures. So, regardless of what's in the person's heart, you have a problem with there simply being a picture there AT ALL?

*laugh* I didn't even think to check the date! Looks like we have another resurrected thread...

Yeah, my friend from college is the first person I saw use that technique. It's something that's really good for rescued dogs, I think (like hers was)...the ones that are timid and afraid and need to have the kind of constant attention from a "pack leader" they can learn to trust. My parents have also used it on their high-need Dobermann, who was neutered a bit late and still has a big head, wanting to be dominant all the time. Seems to have worked in those situations, anyway.

I think it's a mistake to focus on the makeup in this situation. Whatever your personal beliefs about girls wearing makeup is, I think the REAL concern should be WHY she wears it, WHY she dresses like she does, etc. Pre-teen and teenage girls these days face A LOT of peer pressure and deal with a LOT of self-esteem issues. Add to that the stresses (often imposed by adults) of needing to attain certain grades in school while excelling at extracurricular activities AND maintaining relationships...well, basically, it's a recipe for an extreme amount of stress that even we as adults can barely comprehend (for one thing, fully developed adult brains are better equipped to cope with pressures and the stress they cause). Sexual abuse would almost certainly amplify self-esteem issues, and many girls deal wtih this by doing things like applying too much makeup and dressing in clothes which draw sexual attention to themselves. Anyway, my point is, I think what she really needs now, more than a no-makeup rule (which would treat a symptom but not bring a cure), is someone to come alongside her, to pray for her, to be someone she can trust and open up to, and to gently guide her as she faces all the issues girls her age must face.

I'm glad you're finding peace I wanted to assure you, though, that your salvation was ALWAYS secure. Christ's blood covered that sin even before you came to this place. There is only one unforgivable sin, and that was not it. Think of all the times we've sinned without remembering to ask forgiveness...does that nullify our salvation? Certainly not! And I don't think you were in a place of committing willful sin, because your heart was troubled enough by this to ask for help. Anyway, I pray for your continued healing and an ever stronger relationship with our Lord.

Where do you infer that from? I've never heard of marriage being a promise to the 'community'. I only know it as a promise to God and to your spouse, no more, no less. The Christian community is important to every aspect of Christian life. Again, no single verse sets this out as succinctly as it seems you would like, but it is evidenced throughout scripture, particularly in the Epistles. For instance: "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." Eph. 5:3 Here we can see that it is important for the individual members of the Body of Christ to uphold proper standards of Christian living for the good of the Church and the witness of the Church. I think it's easy to see how this would apply, since when you marry you are basically commiting to uphold the sanctity of the marriage bed in the eyes of God, and (by default) in the eyes of the people around you. For example, if you were to marry and then divorce because you were cheating on your wife, you're not just letting down your former spouse and God, but you're damaging the witness of the Church as a whole, because you are showing to the world that Christians don't live much differently than they do. Also, there may be members of the Body who look up to you as an example, particularly younger members, and you may disappoint them with such an action. Everything we do touches others in some way, especially within the Body of Christ, as it says in 1 Cor. 12:26: "If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it." On that page I linked to before it says this: "All members of this Church, in fulfilling the obligations of the People of God, share according to their circumstances in the obligation to uphold Christian standards of marriage in human society." especially by care for their own families..." As someone who has seen the divorce of close family members who were involved in their church literally from the day the shovel was put in the ground to build it, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the whole Christian community surrounding such an incident is affected by it. There is disappointment, anger, and sadness which touches all those involved. So yes, I would certainly say that a marriage involves God, the couple, AND the community. I think you need to examine the reasons why you "question all this tradition and extra-biblical doctrine hubbub." I don't think it's bad to question (on the contrary!), but I do think it's unfortunate that as Evangelicals we often discount tradition simply because it's traditional. The reality of it is that many of the traditions still upheld by the church (such as the marriage ceremony, including its traditional format) DO have their roots in a proper understanding of Scripture as a whole. As I said before, there is no single passage in the Bible which describes for us how a marriage ceremony should go. HOWEVER, the traditional marriage ceremony is set up in such a way as to draw attention to those characteristics of marriage that are important to God. Those characteristics are evidenced in passages such as the ones I gave you in my last post. As far as struggling with self-control...I think in this case that's probably not a reason for you to hold off on marriage. I mean, if you were talking about struggling to control the urge to punch your intended when you disagree with her, that would be another story...but struggling to not have sex with her? I think marrying her is actually the best way to make that problem a non-issue when you've already determined that she's the one and you two have discussed marriage (which you say you have). I DO think that Paul was offering a remedy in 1 Corinthians...it doesn't mean he was saying to just go out and marry the first girl you see on the streets whose pants you want to get into. Rather, I think it was intended for situations much like yours! Should you do it using a traditional church ceremony before getting into bed with this woman? I think so. I mean, would a godly relative of yours consider it decent to do otherwise? Would the members of your church? Would a seeker in your church? These may not seem like important questions in face of questions like "is this way of doing it specifically prescribed in the Bible?" but I think they are. Because what IS prescribed in the Bible is for us to take into account our witness, and to take into account the example we set before our brethren, and to live at peace with one another, and to honour our father and mother (an important consideration if either of you have parents who would frown upon anything but abstaining until a marriage ceremony was completed in all legality). Personally I find those things reason enough. One final thought to ponder: insomuch as marriage is an important representation of Christ's union with the Body, how important is it, therefore, for us to be considered blameless in the eyes of others with regards to the manner of our union?

Different words, same meaning. If the picture isn't involved, why was it even mentioned? Um, because it's there. Having a visual reminder is not the same thing as idol worship.

I think you want to get away from that practice. As someone stated, it is a form of idol worship. Is she worshipping the candle? That would be idolatry. She's asking about burning a candle to a false image, which would be idolatry. Where did she say she was burning the candle TO the image? I'm sorry, I can't find that in her post.

Do you have to use clips to hold it in place? When I was in highschool before they banned things like that (for fear that they meant gang affiliation) and when the style was popular, I always had to either clip it in place or tie it so tight it would practically give me a face lift if it was pulled back. Otherwise it always just slipped off.

Definitely sounds like trauma to me. Apart from what Biblicist said, I guess I just have to add that she'll need to be REALLY persistent. Has she started walking around with the dog "on umbilical" through the house and stuff? Basically, "on umbilical" means you take the leash, wrap it once around your waist, slip the clasp end through the handhold end then clip the leash to the dog. This encourages the dog to get to know master and house, as well as teaches the dog that master determines where she goes, not the other way around. Once she's familiar and comfortable with your granddaughter leading her this way, it might be beneficial for her to take the dog around the yard like this, letting her get to know it, but also not letting the dog decide where to go. Cesar Milan has some videos on his website here, some of which may be helpful (and I recommend catching full episodes). One I found in Season 1, titled "Kane Overcomes His Fear of Shiny Floors" that may help demonstrate the persistence and firmness needed by the master (the dog's pack leader!) to help a dog overcome a fear.

I think you want to get away from that practice. As someone stated, it is a form of idol worship. Is she worshipping the candle? That would be idolatry.

snood? Snood. Gesundheit.

This was a pretty interesting discussion on the subject...it largely had to do with commonlaw marriages, but there's other info in there too, as well as LadyRaven's personal experience shared (hope she doesn't mind me linking that, but I really did appreciate hearing from someone who'd been down that road in that discussion). I also wanted to highlight the importance of the community--especially the church family--in response to this part: Because the promise we make in marriage is not JUST to God and one-another (though those are obviously no less important parts), it is to the community as well. That's why I like the Anglican (Episcopal) forms so much, actually: before my husband and I got married, our church published the Banns of Marriage, meaning the lay-minister or ordained minister leading the service told the congregation that we intended to marry, and gave the church the chance to voice any objections (they had none, obviously, since we're now married ) as well as the chance to help us prepare. The banns were published for three Sundays before our marriage. It's a tradition that started (this is what I heard, anyway) to ensure that people weren't making multiple little families all over the country in a time before marital records could be easily accessed by computer while at the Registry to get a marriage license. Anyway, I think it demonstrates the fact that the community is important to a couple intending marriage for the good of the couple. I realize you asked for scripture, and I think Cobalt had some good ones...the problem is that there is no formula for a marriage ceremony in scripture. We can make inferences about how it should go based on what God has told us is important to Him in a marriage, but that's pretty much it. I'm sure you've already read these, but here are some scriptures from which such inferences can be made: Gen. 2:18-24 ; Mark 10:6-9 1 Cor. 13 Eph. 5:21-33 1 Cor. 7 In researching this, I came across this document (I think we were supposed to actually go through it before getting married in an Anglican ceremony, but our engagement was pretty short and there were no marriage workshops being offered by a nearby Anglican church in that time period). I encourage you to read page 16. It really goes through the "whys" of the ways of the traditional marriage ceremony in the church (and in preparation for the ceremony and accountability thereafter), including scriptural references. It's actually a pretty interesting handout overall. There's an annoying bit in there about same-sex marriages, because the Anglican Church of Canada is currently divided on that issue (seriously divided...you can find "Essentials" churches, like the one I go to, which know how clear-cut the issue is Biblically and are not for it at all, and then there are the other churches which often embrace not only that but a certain kind of universalism) I have a big beef there obviously...but that's a whole other discussion. You can pretty much just ignore that chapter. I'm pretty sure it was a later addition to the program anyway. The part I think is really relevant is on page 16. And just for interest sake, here's a really neat explanation of the Jewish wedding ceremony.

snood? Snood.

I'm just bumping this because I feel like I killed the thread somehow.

Is it a nanny program? Because I've used one called K9 web protection that's totally free. Worked great for me! Never used Safe Eyes, though.

I think lowering stress levels is a big one. I've always found that the more stressed I am, the worse my dreams are. Also, not getting enough sleep (that itself may be caused by stress, of course) can cause nightmares. If having nightmares seems to be a chronic problem for you, I would actually bring it up at your yearly physical with your doc. This article has some interesting information about medical causes of nightmares. Anyway, I have had some pretty sweet dreams. Just last night I had one about bathing my son...we were both laughing and playing with the water, having a good time. Mostly my dreams have been pretty mundane lately, though. I even had one where all I did was change a diaper.

Totally agree. I also think as evangelicals we underestimate how closely tied our bodies and souls are while we're alive. We often think of or bodies as evil, but they themselves are not; our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit! Things like kneeling for prayer or having visual reminders or other things which involve our senses in our worship can be very beneficial. Of course there are those who would make idols out of such things, but you can make an idol out of just about anything (even the computer you're sitting at right now!) so I don't think that's a good enough reason to write this kind of practice off entirely. If it's beneficial, I say "why not?"

Just remember, you moving may seem like a sacrifice right now, but if it's for the sake of the woman you love, it's worth it! Just something to think about anyway...if there are other reasons why her moving would work better logically, then by all means stick to that. But all things being equal, I think it's worth considering. After all, marriage as a whole isn't about doing what we prefer and just hoping one's spouse tags along (or gets dragged along)...yielding to one another in love makes a world of difference. Also, moving is usually harder on women. I'm not sure I could explain that last bit without writing an essay, but if you're curious, there's a couple Focus on the Family broadcasts (part 1 here and part 2 here) that go into it.

I think it's not surprising in the least. The world hated Christ first, after all. If it's any encouragement, Veggie Tales is on the Saturday morning cartoon lineup!

What about seeing if there's an older couple or something from your church willing to rent her a room for a couple months? Some students rent rooms like that throughout the whole school year. Is there a reason why it's not an option for you to move closer to her? Also why is it so iffy for her to take your apartment while you live with your mom if you were planning on getting married soon after this proposed move? Sounds to me like that would be a MUCH better option for a Christian couple than you living together, even if it was for the purpose of marriage.

Mostly right now I'm thankful for antinauseants...if it weren't for them, I'd have spent the whole day puking. I'm also thankful for my husband, and that he works for my father and was therefore able to stay home with my son and I to help us while we've been sick (we both caught some gross stomach bug). Hopefully I can feel well enough soon to do something special for him to thank him...maybe once I know I'm not contagious I'll make him his favourite cookies (and bring some to my dad to thank him for giving my husband the day off, too). Also, God's been providing in a lot of ways over the last couple weeks. He's so Awesome.

*nods* from my understanding, the Hebrew culture actually has some of the earliest examples of respect for women...to just about all the cultures around them women were little more than sex objects and baby-making-machines. I agree...I wish more couples could learn to argue properly. Frankly, I think it's silly to expect that a couple will NEVER disagree or argue, and I don't think it's the disagreements and arguments that are bad, it's the way people disrespect one another, taking cheap shots at eachother and making the argument about getting their own way rather than trying for what's best for the family. But that's another topic in itself Anyway, I imagine there was marriage for love, but I guess the expectations were different back then. In our western society, we expect that love and marriage come together using a pattern of sparks flying, intense romance, intensely romantic marriage, then living (mostly) happily ever after. And of course, to the world (and most unfortunately, even some Christians), there's the "but if the spark dies there's always divorce" tagged on to the end of that...but anyway, I think the expectation back then (at least among the Hebrew people...I can't speak for cultures that seriously oppressed their women) was probably that whether love was there to begin with or not, they would cultivate it, build it up out of being eachother's helpmeet, and out of respect. That's my point of view, anyway...I get that mostly from my limited knowledge of the OT's cultural context and Francine Rivers novellas (granted, I think Francine Rivers does pretty good research)