mike2

May I suggest reading Romans ch 1-9

How easy would it be to put it back in at a later date?

I've been away all weekend, I am now looking at your train of thought. Is'nt it great when the Spirit leads us through something.

I took a course that recquired reading Marcus Borg. I felt the same way as you do. I continued with the reading for one reason, and that was so that I could understand the point of view of someone that trusts the words of a scholar more than that of God in the bible. I tried to keep in mind, that I not only wanted to learn more about God, but that if I am to be effective in speaking about Him, I would need to understand why others have doubts. Interestingly, the Sunday after I started this course, I was asked to read 2 Timothy 3- 4:4 Sometimes we read verses that stick to us because they are so perfect to that time in our life. To this day I thank the Lord that He made it possible for me to take that course to learn the lesson of how people can be led astray ( the writing is comparable to a legal argument). And, mostly, that He timed that Sunday reading in the manner in which He did for me, so that I would be aware, be prepared, and let His Spirit guide and protect me while I was learning. You want to talk about building trust Praise the LORD. May Gods Spirit be with you as you go forward in your education mike2

I can remember when I built my house, I had never built anything before. I had a set of plans that told me what to do. But , I had a tough time getting started, I didnt know where to start, because I was afraid I might mess it up. I remember my wife and I staring at that big hole in the ground wondering where to start, I pointed at a corner and said, 'lets start there, if its the wrong spot we'll soon know' I came to the realization that my fear of messing up, was keeping me from the journey that I wanted to take. I realized that I was going to make mistakes and probably going to have to redo something and that maybe, it might not turn out the way I had hoped. But, I'd still have have something I could call home. Lifes like that. God is not going to do it for us, but once we get started He will give us signs to help us along. And I believe all the experiences we have had, He will draw on those for us to use in His work. Your life is what it is, and as you move on, the experiences you have had, God will use them, for you and for others. But, what you desire, is not going to happen if you don't get started.....somewhere. God will guide you. Blessings mike2

Me too.

Our lives are influenced one of three ways; 1) Satan and his influence in the world 2) our will to control ourselves and our destiny 3) God and His life through Jesus Christ I think you are seeing the results of the first two. In the bible there is a guy named Jonah. I'm sure you have heard of his story, he spent 3 days in the belly of a whale. If you can imagine three days in the belly of a whale, you might see some similarities to your own situation. Jonah was helpless in his situation and all though he tried to take control of his life he could'nt. Jonah eventually ended up in the ocean and was swallowed by a whale, which we can relate to the helplessness in our lives without God in it. Good news is, Jonah called on God, God answered him and Jonah found renewed strength. Its an interesting story and many people can relate to it in their own way. When you ask Jesus into your heart and ask His forgiveness (and by the way, you'll always be doing that) NOTHING can come between you and Him. Start talking to God, invite Jesus (God as a human) into your life, accept His forgiveness for the things in your past, its there, waiting to be accepted. Stay here, keep asking questions. Jesus said that He would send us a helper. That helper is the Spirit of God. When you accept Jesus you will recieve the help of the Spirit...... and you will have a whole new understanding May God bless you, and may you recognize His love mike2

Consider this; Is it possible to love a person, but not like them ?

Gods forgiveness is always there. It doesnt depend on someone repenting. It just doesnt "kick in" until they repent. It is no good to a person unless they realize they need it, and then accept it. On the other hand, the person forgiving is able to put the incident behind them rather than stew on it and let it really bother them, sometimes to the point of illness. Consider that effect when the person being forgiven doesnt realize their transgresion, or does'nt care. They go along on their merry way, while the person that refuses to forgive and keeps getting upset every time the transgressors name is brought up, just festers. We need to forgive, if the name of someone just makes your blood boil, then you have got to find a way to forgive them.. for your own sake.

To be able to love with nothing expected in return is the essence of Christianity. Your response to Iryssa, indicates that you are learning that, through your relationship with John. The same thing has happened to me in my life, and these people, have not only become very close to me, but the relationship has taught me how to really love with no expectations other than to.....love, Its great when I am able to take that experience into other relationships, whether they are just starting or just in passing.

Stitchy, I believe you have learned about the very essence of Christianity!!

I think this, or something along this line will have something to do with the mark of the beast

Fear, ... of many things " there is no fear in love" 1 John 4:18 Love will displace fear, fear will not displace love.

You should be giving a gift from your heart and out of love. Your family has fallen into the terrible Smiths and Jonses trap, no one is ever happy in that one, and the enemy loves it. I think you have to ask yourself what is the purpose of this gift giving. I somehow think it is for selfish reasons ( or misguided values). I ran into this years ago with my wifes family, once. I no longer take part in it. I was told that one member of the family thought there should be a minimum of $60 dollars spent on a gift. How has that got anything to do with love and kindness? I now sometimes buy a gift for a relative, but only if I feel that the gift has meaning. Trust me, you aint missn' much by not taking part in this. Spend the money on your own chidren. If your families open the gifts together YOU buy gifts for your children ,with the money you would have spent otherwise. Someone might say something under their breath, but thats a lighter slap than fighting over what you have to buy someone. Do this gift giving in love or dont do it.

What you are saying at the start of your post, oh so describes the hypocracy in any religion. I often wonder if the people talking as you have related are really Christians or are they just having a weak moment. The world is changing, changing in ways it has never been subjected to before, Islamic extremist and Islamic intolerances are a very clear, present day indication, of how ALL religions are going to become in the near future. It is getting worse and worse with some Christians as you have pointed out. Obviously a theocracy, one that is mandated, is really a false religion, ...you cant "force" a belief on anyone. How many times have you heard "why doesnt God show Himself and then we'll know who He is" ... well some will see it happen in Jesus' second coming. There will actually be a time when Christ will rule for 1,000 years. Everyone will know who He is. No one will be able to deny Him. Then Satan will be freed into the world again, to push his influence on man once again. This influence will be pushed on people that undeniably know Christ, and even so, some will fall away. When the people are forced into a religion, that religion will become subject to hate and resentment, we dont have to be physcologists to figure that one out. I think it is Gods intention to show that,...... after Christs reign (on this earth) --- I believe He is going to give us every opportunity possible, so man cannot make excuses for denying Him. And I dare say, watch France and England as they move towards removing religious differences, and see what happens. The only way a theocratic(?) religion will work is if everyone believes, ...not chooses... guess who spends eternity with God. One other point, I dont know how you view this, but, a true Christian, lives to a standard much higher than any law man has to live by. The reality is, laws are there as a bottom line for man to live by, and todays laws are becoming so convoluted and grey, that a Christian should consider their behaviour questionable if they are living their lives within those areas. I am not looking for a discusion on it, but some good examples would be pornography, having an affair on your spouse, smoking pot, all becoming the accepted norm in society today. You have come up with a lot of things to talk about. I think this is going to be an interesting thread I thank God you have brought up this topic.

The government is trying to keep the peace, in a way that covers everyone. Imagine what it is going to be like when the true church and its influence of love, is removed. These gatherings are only a glimpse of the hate that is going to permeate the world (not just the Muslim religion). I feel like crying when I think about it, and I often do ...(think about it) Knowing man and our poor resistance to Satan without God in our lives, God knew we would go down the road we are going. Those of us that study Gods word, know where we are headed and understand why. The government has no choice but to do what it is doing. Something doesnt have to be breathing to take on a life of its own. Which is going to happen with state control. We are close to the end times and these things are going to happen more frequently. As the yeast (hate) spreads, it is going to pick up speed. I believe the future of the world is visible, right in front of us, right now, in England and France. I am trying to spend my time living as Christ wants me to, and be bold in talking to others about who He is and what He has done. I get frustrated seeing how the hate is taking over everything, and I am seeing it becoming increasingly difficult for people to think about love rather than revenge. I wonder how the world would change, if tomorow everyone woke up, and couldnt talk

For what its worth This kind of reminds me of something I read the other day. A man was in a similar discusion. The person he was talking to said "If your God is so good,why don't you ask Him why He lets all these bad things happen" The man replied "because I am afraid if I do, He will ask me the same thing" At any rate...no matter how hard anyone or any religion tries...as evidenced in the OT WE are not going to wipe out evil...we have to resist it. There is a lot more to the stories of these killings than what most people read on the surface. Too often people ( especially non- believers) will not look deeper into the meaning of what is written. They wont even consider the possibility that it is in the bible to teach us about something. Think about it.. God doesnt take "risks".. those stories arent in the bible because God is honest and wants to be "open and transparent" they are in there for a purpose, and that is to bring us closer to him. Unless a person is willing to learn, they'll get hung up on this. Personally I think when you get into a debate over this with a non believer, that is not willing to learn and uses this as an excuse not to believe.... You arent going to have anything fruitful come from the conversation. Pray for understanding I pray you find a way to open productive communication with the person you are talking to mike2

Personally I dont think accountability should be the focus of anything, but it should be a PART of everything. Think about, who are we really accountable to. If you dont have community and trust, all based on Christs teachings and love for one another and as the primary focus, I think an accountability structure can take on a life of its own. If that happens it can become a horrible thing. I would be careful of where you put your focus and how you bring forth the accountability.

By "your family" and "his family" Do you literally mean family, or do you mean parents, or, parents and siblings, or, parents and...well everyone? You say hes worried about his family being offended. It sounds to me like he hasnt actually talked to anyone to find out if they will be? It may be as simple as asking. May I suggest not opening the bar until AFTER dinner then your fiances family wont have to worry about any drinking until some time into the after dinner celebrations

I think we should also pray for the Cuban people during the time of instability that is to come caused by the power struggles of other political parties and the corporations of the world, as they try to take advantage of the poor people in this country.

I think when a person stops asking questions like you are asking, it is a sign. I think if someone stops doubting themselves worthy of Gods forgiveness, it is a sign. It is, when you think about it, a sign of being humble. When that is gone, I believe a person can slip into self worship and put confidance in themselves.

I'm going to remeber that one!