Massorite

Heello there Cajun, You pose a very good question that is paradoxial. I have looked at this as well and came up with my own conclusions be them correct or not I do not know. This is one of those questions that depends on if you have a calvanistic view or not. We had a thread discussing the views a while ago,(no too long ago) I have found that each reading that contained free will within the sciptures were situational. In deut. chapter 30 It is said "CHOOSE LIFE" I forgot the verse...maybe around 17 or 18. And then we have the statement that We came to the Father" NOT OF OURSELVES!" So in these two verses we have complete contradiction. Yet they certainly differ from situations. And of course you have Paul who is talking about doing what he doesn't want to instead of what he should. We do choose to Love the Lord, We do choose to Obey Him as well And we can choose not too. Coming to the saving Grace knowledge is the mere fact If we did not have The Holy Spirit wooing us to Him we would not be with Him. My daughter Emily who is seven, I allow certain days for her to make choices, But I guide her to the correct ones previously and hope for the best, Her choices are good for her age. Then there are times she has no choice at all. She needs her mama to make them for she has not matured to that level yet. Either way The Love between us remain unconditional and free . So what you ask ..for me the answer is situational. One may say Adam had no say being created and was given the free will to Love His Father, but yet was given the free will to sin. There are more scriptures that deal with free will and plenty of other words used in relation to 'free will'. ... love ya all...patricia ( this may not give you the answer but it may give you a different perspective) Thanks Pat IN God Cajun There are actually 17 verses that speak of freewill offerings to the Lord in the old testament which include offerings of a phisical sacrifices of animals and crops and of praises and of offering ones self to the Lord for use as He see's fit.

Eric, you are correct. This is also talking about hell - Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: I GOT THE FIRE DOWN IN MY BONES! Jeremiah 20:9 "But His word was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay". In this verse Jeremiah describes what it feels like when God has put his word into your heart. It is an unquenchable supernatural fire that never goes out as long as we remain focused on God. It is that which gives one the drive that keeps us keepin on with what ever ministry God has put in our heart to do for Him in spite of all or any adversity. It is what gives us the drive to be bold in the Lord even to the point of being executed for doing so. I think that between verses 45 and 50 there are two kinds of fire being talked about here. In verses 45-48 the Lord is talking about the unquenchable fires of Gahenna/Hell. But in verse 49 the Lord says that "everyone" will be salted with fire. We have escaped the burning fires of hell but just as the verse says 'everyone" will be salted. So the Lord can not be talking about the hell fires of verses 45-48 because we will be salted also with fire because we are part of "everyone". We should take note that verse 49 also says that "every sacrifice shall be salted with salt". There are no sacrifices in hell so the word sacrifice is talking about the sacrifices of those who have given themselves over to the Lord to do what ever He has asked of them. These sacrifices are a sweet savour to the Lord. The fire in verse 49 is salt that the sacrifices are salted with in verse 49. And as verse 50 says "salt is good and have salt in your lives". Those who's salt is no longer salty have never done what the Lord wanted them to do or started to but stopped and became stagnant.

Your not alone Lynda. I get so fed up with twisted scripture, false doctrine and many assumptions. Every church I have ever gone to the pastor always says. "We should talk." But as soon as he finds out that I preach that Christmas is pagan and the bible tells us not to decorate trees, that Easter is pagan and not biblically sanctioned, that once saved always saved can not be proven using scripture or that getting ones name written in the Lambs book of life when we get saved is not written anywhere in the bible. He soon turns from being nice and warm to being cold aluft. Oh well. God wrote the book. I didn't.

Water baptism is a symbolism of a outward sign of a inward change. Its symbolic like communion is when you eat the wafer as bread and drink wine which represent the body and blood of christ. The wine and bread don't turn into blood and flesh, and baptism doesn't save or wash sins away. Well then if the bread and wine are symbolic why is the water not symbolic? The communion is for the saved and it does no good for the unsaved to partake. It is apples and oranges. So please could you answer my questions? What is the water for? Or maybe you can understansd this better. What is the symbolism of a water baptism? & Why did Christ command it?

That's another thing that bothers me...if angels are sexless...how could they "mate" with human females? The nephilim were angels in human form. They were the ancient giant race. Angels do take on human form, as spoken of in Scripture many times. I don't agree regarding the nephilim (although I do agree anges can appear to us in a form that looks human). Here is my take on the Nephilim: The Nephilim (literally from the Hebrew verb meaning "to fall") were a group of men considered to be giants because of their physical prowess. The Nephilim were on the earth before and after the time that the "sons of God" interbred with the daughters of men in Genesis 6:2 The sense of Genesis 6 is a description of the general evil of the day. Here is my take on the meaning: 1. The "sons of God" was probably a reference to the Godly line coming from Seth. They did evil in God's sight by interbreeding with women outside the Godly line. 2. The Nephilim were a group of men that due to their physical size were able to "fall" upon others using violence. 3. The irony is that both the evil Nephilim and the "sons of God" were intermarrying and interbreeding with the same women. The offspring of the line of Seth and the duaghters of men produced children who were well thought of by the world (6:4), but not by God (6:5) 4. Genesis 6:5 says that God looked upon these events and others and saw that mankind was basically heading headlong onto evil. It should be noted some feel that the term "Sons of God" refers to demonic beings that interbred with humans. They conclude this because the term "sons of God" is frequently used for angelic beings. I have concluded that the term refers to the offspring of Seth, because of the followng: 1. Genesis 6 follows immediately on the heels of a contrast the ungodly line of Cain (Genesis 4) and the Godly line of Seth (Genesis 5) Genesis then begins with the idea that women were being born outside of the Godly line of Seth, and the offspring of Seth began to desire them. 2. In no place in scripture are angelic beings described has having the ability to reproduce. In fact Jesus indicated that angelic beings are in fact asexual in nature (Mark 12:25) 3. In Genesis 6:9-13 a new "Godly line" is established that begins with Noah. His line is now pure and undefiled. Summary 1. The Nephilim were a race of physically superior people that used their advantage to "fall" upon people. 2. The Godly line of Seth began intermarrying with women outside the Godly line. 3. The evil nephilim also began intermarrying with the same women. 4. This dissolution of the Godly line was evil in God's sight (this is a theme that will follow Israel throughout her existance), but produced offspring that were well thought of by the current populace. 5. Because of this, God determined to judge the world by wiping out humanity except for those who belonged to the new Godly line beginning with Noah To answer the original question. Demons are angels who rebelled with Satan Ok EricH prove it scripturally. Where in the bible does it say that those giants were men? The true Hebrew meaning for the word giants is "fallen ones". Better yet where in the bible does it say that those giants were the sons of Seth. There are no probablies in the bible. It either is or it is not. A probably is always an assumption which leads to false teaching and misguides the biblical student. Where are the scriptures that prove your summary statements 1-5. Here are some arguments to what you are saying. At no time before or after the flood has God ever destroyed or threatened to destroy the human race for the sin of mixed marriages. Today we have by far more mixed marriages then ever before in the history of the human race and God is not threatening to destroy for that sin which in the eyes of God is not a sin. He considers it a foolish thing to be unevenly yoked but it is not listed as a sin that will send one to hell let alone destroy the earth for it. If the Sons of God speak of the sons of Seth then only the sons of Seth engaged in mixed marriages and not the daughters and only the daughters of Cain were involved and not the sons. Your belief also implies that only the sons of Seth were Godly and only the daughters of Cain were evil. So where is that written in the bible? If only the sons of Seth were the only Godly men on the earth then why was there only eight righteous souls from only one family left on earth to board the Ark/ In Gen 4:26 it says that to Seth was born a son who's name was Enos. Enos was his first born and his name means "weak, mortal, frail or incurable which tells us that there was something very wrong with even the first born of Seth." And directly after Enos's name in the same verse the Bible says "then men began to call upon the name of the Lord" If you were to trace the descendants of Cain you will find that the blood line of Cain dribbled down to nothing long before the flood ever came. When men began to call upon the name of God it was not a good thing because there was no reason to call upon the name of the Lord. Everybody on earth knew who He was. The research of the day says that men began to call that which was not God as if it were God. Others believe that men began to call themselves God as if they were God. According to the biblical record of the blood line of Seth all the males on the earth should have been the Godly men at the time of the flood and since the blood line of Cain was non existent at the time of the flood there were no evil daughters of Cain to marry. Another question here is who did Adam call upon or Abel or Seth and what about Cain. Whose name did he call upon? As evil as he was he still knew who his God was. In the book of Job 38:7 the bible says that "all" (pre satanic fall because the word ALL is used) the sons of God shouted for joy WHEN God laid the foundations of the earth". This verse speaks of a time before the six days when God created the earth. Lets face it EricH. The concept of the fallen angels being the sons of Seth quit simply doesn't line up with the word of God. It is a false teaching designed by satan to deceive those who are willing to be deceived by him.

HUH? Salvation brings us alive in Christ not baptism. You can be baptized all day long and all you will get is wet, it does nothing to save us from our sins! That is true. You can also be saved all day long but with the follow through of baptism ones soul never gets cleansed of old sin. Committing ones life to Christ is only the first step down the road to salvation. The next step is to begin to obey Christ and Christ tells us to be baptized after we except Him as our Lord and Saviour. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit will not nor can it inhabit a soul which is filled with the ugly dirtiness of sin and it is only after we are cleansed that we can feel alive in Christ. When I was saved it wasn't until after I came up out of that water that I felt the presents of Christ within me and it hit me like a tone of bricks. Obedience is where it is at. One is no good without the other. After recieving Christ if one refuses to be baptized it is a sin of pride. Holy Moly The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it? What does your name mean?

HUH? Salvation brings us alive in Christ not baptism. You can be baptized all day long and all you will get is wet, it does nothing to save us from our sins! That is true. You can also be saved all day long but with the follow through of baptism ones soul never gets cleansed of old sin. Committing ones life to Christ is only the first step down the road to salvation. The next step is to begin to obey Christ and Christ tells us to be baptized after we except Him as our Lord and Saviour. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit will not nor can it inhabit a soul which is filled with the ugly dirtiness of sin and it is only after we are cleansed that we can feel alive in Christ. When I was saved it wasn't until after I came up out of that water that I felt the presents of Christ within me and it hit me like a tone of bricks. Obedience is where it is at. One is no good without the other. After recieving Christ if one refuses to be baptized it is a sin of pride. Holy Moly The water represants the Blood of Christ. If baptism does nothing what is it good for and why did Christ command it?

HUH? Salvation brings us alive in Christ not baptism. You can be baptized all day long and all you will get is wet, it does nothing to save us from our sins! That is true. You can also be saved all day long but with the follow through of baptism ones soul never gets cleansed of old sin. Committing ones life to Christ is only the first step down the road to salvation. The next step is to begin to obey Christ and Christ tells us to be baptized after we except Him as our Lord and Saviour. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit will not nor can it inhabit a soul which is filled with the ugly dirtiness of sin and it is only after we are cleansed that we can feel alive in Christ. When I was saved it wasn't until after I came up out of that water that I felt the presents of Christ within me and it hit me like a tone of bricks. Obedience is where it is at. One is no good without the other. After recieving Christ if one refuses to be baptized it is a sin of pride.

Baptism brings us from being dead to Christ to being alive in Christ. The argument in this verse is this. What good is it to be baptized if we are going to remain dead IE To continue to live a life of unrepented sin which means the baptizee would still be dead to Christ even after baptism which would be wasted effort.

Put up a big cross in your front yard. Paint it bright white and put a spot light on it while you are playing Christain music and dress like Moses.

That's another thing that bothers me...if angels are sexless...how could they "mate" with human females? Were in the bible does it say that fallen angels are sexless? And were in the bible does it say that fallen angels/demons can't fly? If we were made in the image of God, IE to look like him both spiritually and physically then God has sexual organs just like we do because He made us to look like Him. In The book of Jude it says that the angels who were disobedient in the days of Noah, kept not there own estate (Heavenly body) and left there own habitation(heavenly abode/house or residence). To suppose that satan was cast down to earth from heaven never to return is a misconception. In the book of Job in both the first and the second chapters the bible says that the angels presented themselves before the Lord and satan was among them. The only place were the angels go to present themselves before the Lord is before the throne of God when He is sitting in it. Which means that satan still has limited access to heaven. After all his job is to accuse the people of God, to God which means that satan does have a place in heaven even if it is for a bad reason The war in heaven spoken of in the book of Revelation is still yet future because it say that once satan and his angels are cast down to earth there will be no place found for them in heaven So what do you think?

Great falls, Jesus is our Lord and savior, and always leads by example, when He told His disciples to do something it was not beyond Himself to do the same: John 14:4-6: 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 13:4-5: 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. luke 17:3-4: 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. If Jesus told His disciples to forgive when trespassed against, if the transgresser asked forgiveness, and He leads by example. then He will do the same. There is also the parable concerning the prodical son you can read this in : Luke 15:11-24: 11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Note the words alive again in Red also you can read a more detailed discription of Luke 17 if you read all of Luke 18. Just repent ( feel sorry turn away from your sin), go to church read your bible daily, worship the Lord, and pray to Him daily. and get rid of unchristian influences in your life. Let us know what happens. I'll be praying for ya Your brother in Christ Spiritman Brother. I am ready to tell you something now. I went into the Church tonight with doubts filled in my head. When they began singing the devil put thoughts in my head such as "This is ridiculous", "Why don't you just walk out now?", "God is not good", and all sorts of awful thoughts. satan had never attacked me so strongly. I was feeling so lost and hopeless. Suddenly I saw a lady at the altar, she was kneeled down, and the pastors of the Church were praying with her to, and her soul was won to God. Let me tell you that all my life I have been such a shy person, but God gave me the courage to walk in front of the Church, and I kneeled down, there was prayer and shouting, I was crying uncontrollably and shaking, but I did not care who saw me. I even got up in front of the Church and testified. Something I would never have been able to do without truly knowing that God was my savior. He gave me strength. I sat in that Church maybe a few hours afterwards, and I felt so secure, and peaceful. I was hugging or shaking hands everyone near me. I had never been so full of joy. I feel like telling the world what God has done for me. I feel like praying for random people walking along the street. As soon as I walked out of that Church, satan was once again attacking harder than ever. Both in my mind and physically. I don't have much of an appetite and I am having some bad physical pain/nausea in my stomach area. I need your prayers. Pray that I will be able to defeat satan with God's power, and that I will have peace in my mind. Pray. Thanks. Hi Great falls, The fact that the devil is after you, and trying so hard means that your still a child of God. Satan usually doesn't bother people who are already His. Satan even tried this with Jesus Himself, in the desert when He (Jesus) was tempeted for 40 days and 40 nights. Remember Jesus is the model of how to respond; lets look at this scripture to see what Jesus did. Matthew 4:1-11: 1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. How did Jesus respond to satan in Matthew 4-1-11; He quoted the scriptures back to satan, what was satans response, Satan kept trying for a while to get Jesus to fall, but Jesus just kept quoting scriputure to Him. The devil just got fed up and left. James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. continue to resist if satan tries to fill your head with ungodly thoughts quote the scripture to him, say to him it is written, it might be a little painful at first, but it's like lifting weights work throught the pain and then there is gain. trust me on this I've had battles that have taken months, I just kept quoting scriptures. One thing to remember is that satan will come back and attempt to tempt you again. that's the nature of the spiritual battle. it will continue till we go home to be with the Lord. you are in my prayers, and keep on being prayed up in church let them anoint you with oil and be prayed for as much as possible. God Bless Spiritman Hay Great Falls. These people who claim to have spent time in hell or talk to the dead have the spirits of demons inside of them and are the tools of satan. So with that in mind we should consider what satan is. He is a thief, he bring destruction to those living in this world without Jesus inside of them and most of all he is the one who tells lies. Which means that these people who make these claims are making lies to deceive those who would be deceived. Don't be afraid. If Jesus is within you, you have no fear of burning in hell. All you have to do is continue down the path you are traveling. We Fall Down We Get Up. Be Blessed

I fully understand your understanding. But that unrepentant sinner cannot have an eternity unless he has life, an existance, immortality. He cannot be dust which is the condemnation of man due to Adam. If you want to hold to this position, then show theologically, how you can have a pile of dust being revived to life in order for that person to stand in judgment and then live for an eternity in hell. That is where your view does not align with itself, let alone scripture. Yes, spiritual death. A spiritual separation from God, but not in non-existance. He will have life, existance in hell. yes, he died both deaths immediately. His sin, is a spiritual separation from God, all sin has that characteristic. But he also suffered the condementation that was promised if he did sin, he also died physically. He became mortal which he was not before he sinned. It is this mortality that is inherited, is passed on. We do not inherit sin, or guilt and anything from Adam, except that consequence of his one sin, death. yes, spritually, and permanently because there was no reason for God to have union with man if man was simply going to die after a few years. Man was not created to die. Yes, it is, that is precisely why Christ needed to restore man nature back to life. Man needed life. Existance. A pile of dust does not have life, is not connected to God. Unless you can also theologically rationalize that life exists in dust. If so, then why would God need to give life to it when he created Adam? It is the ONLY thing that makes sense. God created Adam from the dust of the earth, THEN BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM. So dust does not have life as you seem to want to say. Christ came PRIMARILY, to restore mankind to life. That is what all the texts I quoted are saying. Man, a human being must have life, existance in order to endure a judgement and live eternally in a spiritual death. You cannot even speak of spiritual death unless one has life. Spiritually dead, not physically dead. They might desire to not have been redeemed and preserved from destruction, but God was not going to allow Satan to have dominion over His creation. God was not willing that any person, bearing His Image would be destroyed. That is the ONLY thing it does mean - PHYSICAL LIFE. Christ arose from the dead, physical resurrection, so that having borne our fallen natures, restored them to life, physical life, eternal, immortal life. Ok larryt I am going to try this one more time. MATTHEW 18:8 "Wherefore if your hand or your feet offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from you; it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather then having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire" Now the words "EVERLASTING" are talking about someone who's hands and feet would burn with them if they were cast into "EVERLASTING FIRE" which speaks of a period of time that is EVERLASTING IE FOREVER, NEVERENDING, PERPETUAL, and lastly it speaks of a period of time that is eternal. Rather then answer my questions the last time I asked you something you saw fit to try and insult me. So here is another question for you. What does "everlasting fire" speak of in that verse?

Take note that this has to happen befrore the mark of the beast comes about. The mark could be just about anything that would show a persons allegience to the beast (dragon). I don't see any reason to worry about it until the first beast raises it's ugly head. We just need a place to hide with three and a half years of food, water, paper towels and toilet paper and just skip out on it all. You are right, of course. This comes before the bit about the MOB, in the Bible. But do we necessarily have to take this as meaning that the beast will rule and become the antichrist before imposing the MOB? Anyway, quite apart from this and assuming that the antichrist has to be in a ruling position (or it may not be obvious to the people on the earth that the "beast" does actually exist as such and fulfills what was foretold in Rev. 13) I think it is pretty obvious that the beast will use what is already in place to impose his mark. Why should we make it easy for him? I did not ever say that I thought anything specific was actually the MOB. I don't know what form the MOB will take (if I have to guess I rather favour the ID card, it seems the most likely option from my point of view, now, but I MOST CERTAINLY could be wrong about that). However, I believe that we should take great care not to embrace any system that makes things easier for the eventual reign of the beast, anything that might - just might - be a lead-up to the MOB. I am saying also that we should have no trust in something that is entirely "of this world". We should put all our faith in God's word and nothing else. Anyway, there are thousands of other reasons to resist anything that is intrusive or controlling or likely to "track" us, number us, brand us or enslave us, without even thinking of the MOB. How can we live to glorify God if we are not entirely free? Actually Buck in Revelation 2:17 the verse says several things but the part I would like to draw attention to is the part where it say "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna," Here the word "hidden" is used to speak of that which is hidden from our sight or something that is unnoticed". Thanks to Jesus there is nothing hidden from us. Everything that He had is available to us. Except of course real manna and the word manna in this verse is speaking of just that. The same kind of bread from heaven that God fed the Israelite's when they were no longer able to depend on the things of man while they were in the desert. You see we will be protected from certain stuff like the people of God were protected from the plagues. When there were frogs in Egypt there were no frogs in Goshen. When the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen tasted sweet. When there were flies in Egypt there were no flies in Goshen and so on. And when the angel of death came it was the blood of the Lamb that saved the people of God. We might not escape persecution for the name of Christ but God will feed us just like He did for His people in the desert.

Yes, and in the Greek this is a present tense, active verb. In other words, yesterday is meaningless. It does not matter what you may have, might have or that you did believe in the past. It is what you believe today, and each and every day of your life until the end, once you do believe. There is no past tense in this meaning. yes, that is what it says, but I do not know of a single protestant denomination that actually believes and actually does this. yes, believe, but if you don't believe, are you still a believer? Is believing synonomous with unbeliever, or loss of faith, or unfaithfulness? Notice the "all flesh" but other than that, those that believe will have eternal life WITH HIM. Big difference. Yes, no question that the end or the ultimage goal is what Christ had in mind. But what you overlook is that Christ first needed to give mankind life, in order to even have ONE believer. Read I Cor 15:14-19 very carefully. WITH HIM. but the context is again spiritual life. Life with Christ. This is not referencing physical life, immortality. WITH HIM. What you are misisng in all of these texts is that all human beings will have eternal life. They all were given eternal life, SO THAT EACH HUMAN BEING COULD FULFILL THEIR CREATED MANDATE. Which was originally to work with God, freely in this universe. It is what we fell from. Christ overcame the fall, so that God and man could again work together in this universe. We enter that labor by faith. We remain there through our faith. God desires that all men be saved through the knowledge of Him and believe on His Name. But in order to give man that opportunity, all men needed to be redeemed from the fall. It can be easily stated that most OSAS proponents overlook the Work of Christ on the Cross. They make Christ's work mans work therein lies this great contradiction they think they see in that a beleiver cannot do any work. You are totally misunderstanding the whole purpose of man's creation, the fall, the redemption from that fall and the restoration of man to be a free agent to love and obey God, work with Him as he was created to do. The whole context is all spiritual. It is spiritual life and spiritual death. It is not referencing physical life or death. Again spiritual. By virture of the fact that this verse speaks of those who do not believe will partake of the second death, MEANS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN LIFE THROUGH CHRIST'S WORK ON THE CROSS. If they did not have life, physical life, immortality, there would be no one to through into hell. Heaven and hell only exist BECAUSE CHRIST REDEEMED THE WORLD. If He did not redeem the world, did not rise on the third day, then no dead will rise either. We all would still be under the condemnation of Adam, which is physcial death. The annihilation of human beings. Dust to dust, Gen 3:19. I might ask you a question, just how do you explain in your theology that the dead shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement? Your view is solely predicated on a spiritual renewal and no place in the Bible is physical life granted through faith. You did a great job of proof-texting, listing and quoting texts. They say what they say, but you gave no understanding of them in relation to both immediate context and the context of revelation. I never said that I was talking about the same eternal life that Jesus gives us. I was talking about a life eternal in judgment, darkness, torment, a place where those who rejected Jesus would burn forever, seperation from God, as well as a life eternal with Jesus. We know from the bible that the rich man after he died was/is in a place of burning because he stated that he was thirsty and in torments. So what is going to happen to him? We know from the book of Revelation that hell is cast into the lake of fire (the rich man will be among them who are in hell) where he will continue to burn and there is nothing in the bible that says that God ever puts out or quenches the lake of fire. Read 2 Peter chapter 2. You will find that those who fit the discription of ch.2 will suffer darkness "for ever" which also means "an eternity" So tell me. Would you consider the suffering of eternal darkness a life thatis suffering in eternal darkness? If you don't consider it a life what do you think it is when one suffers for ever/eternally? I guess I should have made myself more clear. Be BLessed.

really? God's work of salvation is immediate, the generations of men and the time period associated with that are so that the full number God has allotted might be saved open my mind to what? your erroneous understanding? the animal sacrifices were simply a picture of Christ's sacrifice...why was that period necessary? in my opinion (based on scripture), to demonstrate the futility of man attempting to keep the Law; but, anyway, all I know is Christ died for sin at the time God the Father wanted it to occur Romans 5 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Christ's sacrifice, although yet future at the time of Moses, covered all who would be saved both before the cross and after it "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13)...Moses lifted up the serpent as yet another picture of the humiliating sacrifice the Son of God would endure for men loved by the Father interesting...amidst your many accusations, not one scripture Oh well. No more pearls for you.

In the book of Jeremiah 10:1-5 the bible tells us NOT to learn the way of the heathen/pagan. And talks about how the heathen go out, cut a tree down, stand it upright with ropes and then deck it with silver and gold. So by these verses we know that it is a sin to decorate a tree for any reason because it is what the pagans do. If you will do the research you will find that neither Christmas or Easter were celebrated for the first 300 years of the church because the early church leaders considered celebrating birthdays as being pagan. (By the way in some NIV versions of the bible the words "deck it with silver and gold" have been removed from the word of God). And in the only two biblically recorded birthday celebrations a man was killed as part of the celebration. Your research should tell you that everything that has anything to do with Christmas comes from paganism. It was only after the Roman church took over and the Jerusalem church faded away did paganism inter into the worship of Christ. One can trace the birth of Christ to the last half of the month of September during the Feast of the Tabernacles and the feast of the Tabernacle is celebrated to give thanks for Gods provision for us. And Jesus is Gods provision for us. If God wanted us to celebrate His Sons birthday He would have told us to do so. Even the word/name mistletoe means "dung on a twig" and it was believed that this bird dung was the giver of life. In Eze. 8:16-18 the bible speaks of 25 men who have turned their backs to the temple and were facing the east. Who were worshipping the sun towards the sun. The only time one can face the east and worship the sun is in the morning IE a sunrise service. So by these scriptures we know that it is a sin to attend sunrise services for any reason. Not to mention that ALL of everything that has to do with Easter has everything to do with paganism. If there were ever a thing that the Roman church was successful at it was deceiving the Christian masses about these holidays. The fact of the matter is that both of these holidays are man made and have nothing to do with Christ or God. If you want to celebrate Christ you should do it at the proper biblecally designated time. Which is during the feast of the Tabernacles. You can color paganism any which way you want, but it is still paganism Now you and everybody else who reads this thread have been properly informed that these 2 holidays are 100% pagan. That the word of God speaks out against these pagan rituals and that God considers this a sin against Him and His Son. There is nothing in this world that justifies using pagan ritual in the worship of God or His Son and if you continue to do so you will receive your just rewards for rebellion against God and His word.

My wife and I have a 38 revolver. And I don't have a problem with having it. We must understand the the word "kill" in the commandment that says that "You shall not kill" is speaking of premeditated murder and has nothing to do with shooting someone in self defense or in defence of a brother or my wife or my child. In Luke 22:36 Jesus commands His disciples to take a sword with them and if they don't have one . He commands them to sell their garment and by a sword to take with them on there journey. In the old testament God him self killed off a half a million people all at one time. I guess it depends on the individual. Be Blessed

As we speak I am reading a book named "Unveiling Islam" written by the Caner brothers. These two brothers were raised Muslim but converted to Christianity. This book will reveal what you need to know about Islam.

completely wrong...Christ's work of atonement was not a long, drawn-out process Romans 5 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned, for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. I Corinthians 15 The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. thr above is yet another blow to long age materialists who attempt to dismiss or play word games with Genesis Of course, naturalists do not believe the first man was "of the dust of the earth", but descended from "hominids" over vast imaginary epochs one more picture of atonement I love from Zechariah 3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. he LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Then I said, "Put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by. The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day. " 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty." the BRANCH is another beautiful O.T. reference to Christ....here also the "angel of the LORD" refers to the pre-incanate Christ taking away Joshua's filthy garments the synergy of the O.T. and N.T is amazing....I shake my head when people say "the O.T. God was different"! What a joke! It only took who ever long it took to arrest, convict and crucify Christ on the cross. But it took 4000 years of Gods proccesses to get man to the place of excepting Christ. You are in a state of self blindedness. If God wanted to He could have raised Christ, convicted Him and killed Him for an atonement all on the very next day after the fall of Adam. But instead He shed the blood of animals to give Adam and Eve cloths to wear. So open your mind and tell me why He didn't do that the very next day after the fall of Adam? Why did He wait 4000 years to send His Son to be a willing sacrifice for our sins. BECAUSE HE CHOOSE TO TAKE THAT LONG TO DO HIS PROCCESS. Now please tell me (if you can) why He is waiting more then 2000 thousand years before He sends His Son back to pick up His bride. Why didn't He send His Son to pick up His bride 500 years ago or 1000 years ago or why not today? BECAUSE he is waiting for His proccess to be completed. Which is when? WHEN He says so. Wake Up Man. What you speak of is biblically unsound.

Its not that its 'forced' upon you, it might cost you your life but the main focus is that you won't be able to be a part of the world society without that mark. You're basically stripped from any form of buying and left on your own. Those without the mark will probably be looked at as some sort of virus and needed to be done away with. But then Christ steps in and who will stand against Him? It should be obvious from scripture that whether or not you take the mark will be a choice. I believe that when we are no longer able to use the worlds system to survive God will step in. Read Revelation 2:17 and do some research on it. You will find that the word "hidden" speaks of that which is "hidden from our sight" and the word manna does not mean "bread from heaven" like the wisdom Jesus brought with Him. The word manna is speaking of the bread from heaven that God fed the Isrealites when they could no longer use the things of this world and were totally dependent on God for their food and every thing else. So shall it be when we refuse the mark. Yes, for sure, I believe that whether or not you take the MOB will be a choice. But it will be a government "requirement", like so many of the ideas governments have, it will be "take our mark or don't work and get paid, operate a bank acct, buy anything, sell anything, drive your own motor vehicle, travel anywhere, own any property, register animals - thereby give up any animals you already have, play any sports or get into sports venues to watch, etc. etc. Well, theoretically this IS a choice situation as you don't HAVE to do those things. People seem to imagine a world where people are lined up and given a clear choice: "Take the mark (thereby denying Christ) or be beheaded". I wish it would be that simple. Yet it will be a choice about life or death, as most people - particularly in cities - will not live if they cannot get paid and buy food. I think (just my opinion, I am of course open to disagreement) that the choice given to people will be "take the mark or be bankrupted" (something that people seem to value more than their - or anybody else's - life). The beheading might come about at a later date, after you have been declared "enemy of the state" and imprisoned indefinitely or something. Torture will probably come first, and there is nothing dignified about torture. Massorite you say "WHEN we refuse the mark", I don't want this to be taken as an insult to a lot of Christians, but I believe that many, many Christians WILL take the mark. This because they will simply convince themselves that "it's just a mark, and it has so many benefits, and government wouldn't get me to something that is not good for me, and by doing this I am not really denying Christ". Some might see this as obeying scripture and "obeying the law" (I can hear people muttering "but we are to 'draw the line' at what ever is antiChrist") but remember the part about ".....I am not really denying Christ". This is just to say that we can't afford to be complacent in any way at all, or say things like "but the Bible says that the antichrist must arise first, so this can't be the MOB", "the Bible says the MOB will be 'in' my right hand and this is 'on' my right hand so it can't be the MOB" Christ will definitely "step in", but what will happen before he does? I agree with you buck. The choice won't be about Christ. It will be about money. 'Take this mark or you won't be able to buy food for your children or keep a job or buy a house, have a bank account or utilities and so on". Even church as we know it will disapear because they will not be able to take or recieve offerings or have a church buildingor a bank account without the mark. Christains will take the mark for the reasons you stated. However the bible teaches us to study to be proved and this is a comand. Which means that anyone who studies the bible should know that they should reject this mark when this governmentaly inforced economic system gets started. I know that I will not except this system/mark when it gets here but it will be very scary for me. It is going to be a weeding out proccess from God. Who will depend on God just like the Irealites did in the desert and who will give in to the things of this world. No insult taken. Be Blessed Yes, I agree, Massorite, this is exactly what will happen. However, I can see 90% (EASILY) of Christians arguing and disagreeing about "Is this the prophecied mark? No it can't be because ......" and then convincing themselves "it is just for our benefit....", "scripture says to 'obey the laws of the land', this is what we must do ....", "this will make us safer", "it is only those liberal/democrats who preach caution, I want 'safety...". I can even see some Christians getting quite hostile about it and ridiculing those who have a different take on the situation and saying things like "the Bible says "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's ....... what is wrong with you? Don't you believe what scripture says?" They will believe that they have to give in to the things of this world, and Christ will step in at the last minute to save them from any harm, because they have been faithful and followed what Paul said to do. These people will still be waiting for an obvious antichrist to threaten to behead them and believe that until exactly what they are expecting happens they are free to take any mark/tattoo/rfid chip/id card (what ever) that is imposed on them because that is "obeying the law of the land". All I am saying is USE CAUTION AND REJECT ANYTHING THAT SEEMS TO BE DESIGNED TO ENSLAVE YOU INTO THIS WORLD, WHETHER YOU SEE IT AS THE MOB OR NOT! Again I agree. The bible says that the kingdom or system or government or what ever one wants to call it, is simply handed over to the antichrist. Which means that the world wide ecomonic system of the mark will already be ready to be implemented by the antichrist and that is where we are headed to day. A cashless system. And it is my God job to shout it out and say DON'T DO IT when the time comes. I always tell people that the mark of the beast is about money and the bondage to money, and God doesn't want us to be in bondage to anything on this earth.

Eternal life is permanent, but it is permanent for every soul that every lived. However, eternal life with Christ is a whole different matter. In John 3:16 is the word "believe" or "believed". the correct understanding is the meaning of to believe, but OSAS makes the meaning believed. Therein lies the misunderstanding. Check your Greek on this word and you will then know. Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life. Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life. Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life. Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Only those that are Christ's have eternal life. Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Only the elect have eternal life. 1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers. Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Again only they that believe have eternal life. Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. If you don't know the father then you don't have life. 1Jo 3:14

Eternal life is permanent, but it is permanent for every soul that every lived. However, eternal life with Christ is a whole different matter. In John 3:16 is the word "believe" or "believed". the correct understanding is the meaning of to believe, but OSAS makes the meaning believed. Therein lies the misunderstanding. Check your Greek on this word and you will then know. Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life. Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life. Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life. Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Only those that are Christ's have eternal life. Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Only the elect have eternal life. 1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers. Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Again only they that believe have eternal life. Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. If you don't know the father then you don't have life. 1Jo 3:14

I'm not asking for examples. You made an exclusionary comment, not an inclusionary comment. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that God has never taken a long course of time to accomplish something that He well could have done in short order. I would contest that you cannot do this. Just an example, salvation. Could God not have simply caused the means of salvation to have come shortly after the fall? Or, perhaps, it could have taken far less than 33 (or so) years for Christ to live on earth before causing salvation? Both of those are examples of situations where God chose a longer time frame to accomplish something He could have accomplished in an instant. Prove me wong. See above. Exclusion, not inclusion. You are joking, right? The entire concept of the Tribulation stands in direct contrast to your point. Even the rapture, it could be validly argued (if, again, this is something to be interpreted 100% literally), is something that has been 2000 years (and counting) in the making. God does take His time, buddy. How could you possibly argue differently? Do you, by any chance, own a sandwich board and a megaphone? You got it right redneck. The whole length of time between Adam and the resurrection is Gods VERY SLOW proccess to undo what Adam changed in just a few seconds.

If you disagree with what is being preached in your church. The proper way to express yourself is to speak with your pastor, in privet. If you are biblically correct. You should stand your ground. But remember that expressing your disagreement to the pastor in private or not can bring his wrath or trouble down on you, even if you are 100% in line with what the word of God says. It is every Christians duty to stand bold for the word and against false teaching. Don't think for a minute that just because your pastor is schooled and ordained that it means that you don't have the authority to speak to him about false teaching if he is wrong. Be brave and be aware. There are no false teachings that should ever be "looked over". Sin is Sin. Nobody should be telling you wether or not you should leave a church except for God and if He wants you to go He will let you know. God has a pre-distained plan for every one but He has given you the choice to go down your path or His chosen path for you.