HisMindinme

I am a Pentecostal

You're quite welcome. I also get what you're saying about things without Christ. It is true: Jesus Christ is the Lord and King of All, all in all. Thank you for your kind response.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,319728,00.html

Dear OneLight, I cannot answer from one of the "Christian Mystics" you and others have eluded to, but this is my experience. I think you already are aware that I spent 20 plus years in a very strict Pentecostal movement. To speak about anything as having value other than what came from the "Word of God" was anethema. To a large degree, I get what is driving and was driving this. However, the simple fact is: I was struggling, failing and without ANY useful understanding of my own self. Without this understanding, I could not see the mechanism of my own self-deception and so -- I lived a large part of the "Christian walk" with the lusts of my flesh dressed up in "Christian Clothing" (talk about a Wolf in Sheeps clothing!). So, here I am 20 years down the road. I am divorced, hurting, alone, depressed and feeling very hopeless and helpless. At this point I have left church, loathe going back, I am distrustful of Christians, but mostly of my own self. I am involved in a therapy program, paying $800-900/month out of my own pocket to "get help." Honestly, it isn't helping. The nonsense of psycology is heaping this HUGE labor intensive "program" of "tools" on me and then telling me, "You're going to have to struggle like this for the rest of your life -- AND -- you'll probably NOT get any better -- you'll get worse." Yikes -- thanks folks! So, that is where I was. Then, on Christmas Eve, 2004 (almost precisely 3 years ago), I am on the internet. I am alone and thinking about being depressed. I decide to see what I can find on the internet about beating depression and pass the time and distract myself from thinking about how I am alone. So, I go on the internet and look. What do I find? Do I find a "Christian Solution?" Nope, I find this little book from a guy who hails from Norway or Sweden or something who says, "I can show you how to end your depression in 15 minutes and it'll never bother you again -- EVER!" I think, "Yeah right!" BUT -- the book is only $7.95, so I consider that I am paying 10 times that amount per month, what the heck. I buy the book. Best $8 I have ever spent in my entire life. Works. Depression ends. Leads me on a trail to guys like Eckhart Tolle (new ager all the way) and women like Byron Katie (another quasi-new ager). The next thing you know, I am gobbling up this stuff like water. The truth is: I am seeing something here that is VERY gospel to me. What impresses me most are the realities of HOW I WORK that are revealed in it all to me. POWER I had been seeking in church and never found is laid in my lap in a moment of time. I am instantly suspicious of my own thoughts because I see how I can invent and imagine my thoughts, make things up which are completely divorced from reality -- and yet -- I am treating my thoughts as though THEY are the truth and reality and I am completely asleep to reality itself. Now -- having said all that, did I toss out the gospel? Did I quit believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, come to live, suffer, die and rise again? NO! Never. However, that doesn't mean I swallowed the thoughts of people and my own self that I had learned for 20+ years hook-line-and-sinker either. I put it ALL on what I called, "My Pile of Suspicion!" Yep -- I put every thought from myself, from others or any other source on that pile and said to it, "I don't trust you any further than I can throw you!" All it took was to see how I could make up a thought and put that thought above reality -- OR -- think the thought WAS reality and be completely asleep TO reality -- that's all it took. Once I saw that, I knew I HAD to be suspicious of ALL my thoughts regardless of where they came from. And THAT was the key! So, I am digressing and getting off on other trails and stories. The key story is here: All this came by way of several people who are and were clearly NOT Christians, much less "Christian Mystics". These folks were either flat out humanists, new agers or both. What amazes me still is how ALL of the Christians I had met up to that point in my 40 year life (I am 44 almost 45 now) did not have a clue about what I learned from these people. Now -- that being said -- does that mean that I think these people are ALL truth and NO lie? Oh my Lord Jesus NO! Actually, they have a wee bit O' truth and a TON O' DECEPTION! BUT -- what they do have were the keys that unlocked "Christianity" for me, for where I was and so on. I am reminded of a pastor friend who used to say to me, "Larry, you gotta chew the meat and spit the bones." I think the real question you are after is: Can you find meat in other places? Yeah, I think you can. The Lord used those folks to bring to me the needed keys to unlock the truth of what the gospel is truly all about: My Mind - Vs. - His Mind. My mind is death and His mind is Life and Peace. Jesus didn't die so I could have a neat little theology. He didn't die so I could have "relationship with Him." Hogwash (hahaha -- here come the attacks -- hold on to your skivvies!!!!). Jesus came, lived, taught, suffered, died and rose again to give us His Spirit for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of replacing our enslaved minds with His Mind in us! If you want to call this a "relationship" then so be it. Nevertheless, the beginning of "getting it" is to see how I am deceived -- self-deceived. For me, this came by way of 20 years of "Standard Pentecostal Christianity", followed by Thomas Sanberg, followed by Eckhart Tolle, followed by Byron Katie and it all wound up bringing me back to my bible and the Word of God with a fresh perspective and insight into my own working, how I am broken and how the Lord has provided to "fix" me (us). Do I recommend a whole adoption of what Eckhart Tolle teaches -- OH MY GOD NO! -- hahaha -- not on my life or yours! What I do think is, you can find meat if you're willing to spit the bones. Who knows -- you may even find those keys you've been hoping for all your life. P.S. -- For all of you who may be writhing in pain over my "no relationship" comment, I am going to clarify it. Yes, we do get a relationship with Christ out of the deal. The bible uses the term "fellowship" and "One with ..." and so on. So, relationship is on the menu. However, THAT is NOT the chief reason for Christ coming. It is a by-line, a side-bar and a result of what Jesus is doing in us by His Spirit: Putting His Mind in and putting to death our mind, enslaved to flesh and the thoughts thereof. His Mind is NOT enslaved to the lusts of our flesh and THAT is the key. There is the purpose. That we get a "relationship" with God out of the deal is a fruit of that work -- a result -- a product. I have heard that Christian jargon cliche of "It's not religion - it's a relationship" so many times. Honestly, it skips to and puts the focus of the "gospel" on a product of what Christ is doing and NOT on the substance of how that comes about in the first place. Nevertheless, even after this clarification, I expect someone will just not be able to resist the urge to feed on the emotions of, "Oh my God -- I can't believe he wrote that!" Oh well -- hahaha ... if you must you must! 2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal: "The Lord knew those who are His." And, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity!" What in us is His? What is the seal of the Spirit in us? The working OF the Spirit --> The Mind of Christ formed in us! Those clinging to and living from the Mind of Christ depart of iniquity BY DEFAULT! Those who work iniquity operate and live from and cling to the natural mind (even though its thoughts are dressed up in religious clothing).

Amen to keeping the focus on Christ and not on experiences. Christians are those who have the Mind of Christ through His Spirit in them. Christians are those who get how their own self-deception works to trap and enslave them. In these two understandings, Christians are those who prayerfully seek after Christ being formed in them and the capturing of their own imaginations (natural mind at work) and bringing such to the captivity of having the Mind of Christ in them. This yields some interesting questions: From where can I validate the Mind of Christ in me? Paul had a couple of sources: 1) The Word of God (he spent his first 14 years in a church and submitted to pulling apart the scriptures searching for Christ in them). 2) Other Christians KNOWN to have the Mind of Christ in them. Gal 2:1 Then through fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation. And I put before them the gospel which I proclaim in the nations, but privately to those seeming to be pillars, lest I run, or I ran, into vanity. In verse 2, Paul seems to be somewhat suspicious of something. Of what? Of the disciples? Of himself? Both? Honestly, I think the answer is both. Perhaps there is something else as well. Nevertheless, his suspicion is fairly obvious, as is the need for confirmation. He wants to know he's not just wasted 14 years of living, study, devotion and life.

Is this "Martyrdom" above coming from the Mind of Christ? Personally, I have no axe to grind. However, I do agree that "slain in the Spirit" is abused. Not only is it abused, but is itself a mostly invented vehicle designed to bring up emotions for the lusts of the flesh to feed on. So, you have your own definition of "slain in the Spirit." Does having your "own version" come out and add up to justification? Whether the version of "slain in the Spirit" has come from you or someone else makes little difference. This is just playing a shell game with the topic, hide and seek, divert and distract. Honestly, what about your source of "slain in the Spirit" is of concern to anyone but you, yourself? I am asking this honestly and don't even need a response to me or anyone else. I am asking this as a question to you for you to answer to and of yourself -- if you choose to hear and answer: your call, your business, your choice. This is starting to add up now: Distancing. First, you put up a very strong defense of "slain in the Spirit" and now you're carefully backing away from the matter. You backed away from a denominational version. You've shielded and protected your view with "this is my personal experience, how dare you say it is wrong!" Now, your playing "I've been saved a long time" card -- AND -- the "I've only done this once" card. Oh yes, let's not forget the negative description of those who've stated a flat disavowment of "slain in the Spirit" as "critics." You know -- the more I develop this list, the stranger and more difficult it looks to me. I am in DEEP danger of applying an Ad Hominem attack my own self towards you dear brother, so I am going to consider what I am writing here with a greater care. I don't want to attack YOU as the means of dispelling your message. I merely point out some things for you to do some self-examination -- if so you so choose. I will state flatly: Your message of support for "slain in the Spirit" as a biblical practice in my small view is shakey at best and I am left with a single question: What does Jesus think of it? How do I know from scripture what Jesus thinks of the practice in typical modern Pentecostal circles? I am not tossing out the matter completely either. I do think that such a thing can happen. My caution comes from seeing the 99% perceived abuse of the matter and the lack of direct reference in the New Testament letters and gospels to this being a common part of the gathering church. Ahhhhh ... HERE is the crucibal! You have just stated that you go to the Word of God to looking for explanations for your experiences -- Vs. -- letting the Word of God discern your experiences. THIS is the basis of twisting the scripture to fit what the flesh wants to feed its lusts on! I will not apologize if that seems harsh and hard for you to read and digest. You've said it. You seek explanations for your experiences in the Word of God. You don't start with the Word of God and the Mind of Christ, you start with your experience and then traverse the scripture on a fishing expedition for scriptures to "back it up." Could you? Yeah -- I think you are. You might sincerely think you're NOT wrong. However, I know my own flesh and how self-deceptive I have been and still am. Part of me is free in the Mind of Christ in me and part of me is still self-deceived (the greater part is my estimation of it). I am in that process of the Lord revealing my self-deception to me and the Spirit of God building in me the Mind of Christ bit by bit, part by part and so on. I think the same thing is true of you as well. My deepest thought to communicate to you right here is this: BE SUSPICIOUS OF YOUR OWN THOUGHTS! Do what Paul said: Examine your own self and judge your own self: NOT just what you believe. You MUST see how you work and how you self-deceive. If you can understand your own mechanism of self-deception THEN you'll be able to discern when the Mind of Christ comes to you and in you by the Spirit of God. My own estimation is: It seems quite apparent that on the matter of "slain in the Spirit" you are off the rails. Now -- that said -- there's only several possibilities: 1) Neither of us have the Mind of Christ on the matter, 2) One of us has the Mind of Christ on the Matter and the other does not. Again, the best thing to do for us BOTH is for us to BOTH be suspicious of what we think. Some part of what we think is food for lust and some part is of the Mind of Christ. Let's start with the "food for lust" part and really be honest with it. Seeing that, then prayerfully seek the Mind of Christ IN THE WORD of God and see what He thinks about "slain in the Spirit." CAUTION: Avoid "this is what I feel" about it. Feelings are from thoughts, thoughts from the mind and IF from our natural mind, then that is ENSLAVED and worthless. Treat it as such! Let's discern together. I don't take this lightly. I write this much to you because I consider it deeply important and not a waste of time. I do see your earnestness! I see your heartfelt longing for the Mind of Christ in you. It rings loud and clear in your words as your write them and I am reading them. The Spirit of God is bearing witness in me of it. Even here, I am careful to not put too much emotional content because I know my flesh and the lusts of it are waiting to feed, so I restrain. Nevertheless -- I see the sincerity of your heart towards the matter and I am thankful to the Lord Jesus for it in you. My prayer is that you gain more and more in seeing the mechanism of how you (how we all) deceive yourself, learn how that works first -- and then to see clearly when the Mind of Christ is delivered in you (born again).

I am curious as well Vickilynn. I agree that asking for Book, Chapter and Verse is an incomplete request. However, incompleteness does not negate the purpose of asking. Important matters in scripture are directly named and pointed out. The matter of "slain in the Spirit" is not directly named, but indirectly substantiated, which is precisely what "Phil" is going to do in the following quotes. This indirection appears to be an attempt to bring "slain in the Spirit" to the same level as direct matters such as: baptism, laying on of hands, prayer, giving, and the Lord's supper. This form of substantiation is just plain wrong. "Phil" will later point out how the matter is abused in churches and goes a step beyond my knowing in the inner circles of pastors and evangelists and what they think of the matter (abusively speaking). So, what appears to be of INDIRECT importance to "Phil" is that no one was standing when the Glory of God filled the temple. Alright, let's let that stand for a moment. What else happened when the Glory of God filled the temple? 2Ch 5:13 and they were as one to the trumpeters and to the singers, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and as they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised Jehovah, saying, For He is good, for His mercy endures forever, the house was filled with a cloud, the house of Jehovah, 2Ch 5:14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God! "Phil" is only sharing PART of the story. He points at how they could not stand to minister, but he leaves out the CLOUD. There was a cloud that filled the temple. So, if we're to bring this OT example into the NT church and follow the example, then we not only need people being "slain in the Spirit", but we need a Glory of God CLOUD there as well. I can tell you that in more than 20 years of being a Pentecostal "Christian" and watching people be "slain in the Spirit" and being that way myself many times, NOT ONCE did I ever experience a CLOUD of the Glory of God and the Presence of the Lord. NEVER! So, what am I to conclude? What I am to gather from this? On one side I have hyper-emotional preachers and evangelists screaming, "GLORY!" and expecting people to fall over "under the power" and the back-up to this are people pointing at 2 Chronicles 5:13 (Book, Chapter and Verse). One the other, I see a fuller REALITY of what the scripture actually says. THIS is precisely what I mean when I say that Christians are just as human as ever and go about making this nonsense up as they go based on emotional feeding of the lusts of the flesh! Really? Book, Chapter and Verse please! New Testament Please! Excellently said, but not said nearly to the full degree of what goes on! "Phil" writes, "emotional Christians who feel that everytime [sic] they go forward for prayer they must prove that God really touched them and this accomplished by falling down." So, the qualification for abuse is "... everytime [sic] they go forward ...": In other words, it is only abuse if a person feels the need to fall out under the Spirit or Power EVERY TIME they go forward for prayer. Nonsense. That it happens as a regularly schedule event on the revival circuit is a clue. But even THAT is not enough said of it. What is deeper still is how the matter is largely emotional lust feeding and THAT is the key and core of it. The Jews in Chronicles were not under some emotional hyper-drive and falling out because it happened as a regular event at the Temple. This was God coming down in a very real form, witnessed as a CLOUD of presence and the reality of that was they were unable to stand and minister, because God was there in a special way for His purpose and NOT to tickle their flesh and lusts with emotional goosepimples! Another qualification for abuse is "... they must prove that God really touched them ...". I agree with this wholeheartedly, but let's be clear on a matter with this. Being "slain in the Spirit" is simply a vehicle to carry someone to a purpose: lust feeding on thoughts and emotions, with actions and words following the blueprint of the thoughts and emotions. What do I mean by that in this context? Proving is something like being defensive. Defensiveness is not always wrong and neither is Proving (i.e. 2Co 13:5 "... prove your own selves ..." -- OR -- Php 1:7 "... and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel ..."). What makes defensiveness or proving "wrong"? When it is driven by our human mind enslaved to our lusts. Thoughts, emotions, words and actions who are sourced from the Mind of Christ in us ARE in their very essence, righteous. They can be proved and they can be defended in righteousness from the Mind of Christ in us. Human thoughts, human emotions and the words and actions based on them are already sinful by nature: The mind in us and of us is enslaved to our lusts of our flesh by default. I am simply attempting to point out how, I have yet to find a contemporary experience of "slain in the Spirit" that is NOT suspicious to me -- and that is after nearly 24 years of going to church and revival meetings week after week! I am NOT saying that such a thing cannot take place: NOT in the slightest way am I attempting to communicate that people cannot have a response to the Holy Spirit and presence of the Lord God where they fall down in His presence. What I am saying is the basis for making this a regular part of a church service or revival service is largely invented and suspicious -- TO ME! You all have your own conscience before the Lord Jesus Christ. Deal with it. NOTE: I am pleasantly surprised to find someone who sees how Jesus referred to Himself in the I AM term. What a great thing to know. The writer "Phil" goes on to point out how the soldiers "fell back" when Jesus used the term I AM (ego eimi). The following quote is from Dr. Jay P. Greene, Sr.'s Literal Translation. From the Dr. Greene translation, I am pointing out how not everyone "fell out under the power of the Spirit" or presence when Jesus said, "I AM." Only a select few. Whether by oversight or other, it is misleading to portray the encounter as "everyone fell out under the power." What is even more fallicious is to attempt to link this to the common practice in many Pentecostal circles (I am a pentacostal by the way) of "slain in the Spirit." Joh 18:3 Then receiving a cohort and under-officers from among the chief priests and the Pharisees, Judas came there with torches and lamps and weapons. Joh 18:4 Then knowing all the things coming upon Him, going forth, Jesus said to them, Whom do you seek? Joh 18:5 They answered Him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them, I AM! And Judas, the one betraying Him, also stood with them. Joh 18:6 Then when He said to them, I AM, they departed into the rear and fell to the ground. Who is "they" in verse 6? They is: "... a cohort and under-officers from among the chief priests and the Pharisees, ..." The "they" was NOT everyone except Jesus. Notice this, and please notice is well. Not only this, but this was not a church service filled with people on the emotional band-wagon, shouting rah-rah-rah-sis-boom-bah-for-Jesus! These were men coming to get Christ to take Him away to suffer, die and rise again for OUR SINS! To equate this "falling down" with the normal routine happening in MANY Pentecostal churches is just insane -- in my lil' ole' human opinion.

"What has happened? Why are the men not standing up for Truth and Right things?" I am reading what you've written as "Men = Men" -- NOT -- "Men = Mankind (Male/Female)". I am basing this on what you say in follow-up about "they will become like women." I hope my understanding of what you

Dear Brother

To me, this is profoundly perceptive! All moments are NOW! Now is ever present. It is always THIS Moment. Here is a challenge to see from the point of view of the scripture: Please refer to the book The Power of NOW! by Eckhart Tolle. Mr. Tolle is MOST certainly NOT a Christian. However, there are some needed points to see in what he writes. Also, another person who is NOT a Christian is Byron Katie -- writing, "Loving What Is". I ask you to "Chew the meat and spit the bones" on these two works. Toss out the "non-Christian" of it and understand that what they are saying is NOT completely true: far from it. The salient point is to get some simple core observations and then go back to the Bible (scripture) and re-examine the person of Christ. Watch what He says and does. Also, see the machine of yourself (myself as well) inwardly and see how, how we operate differs from Christ IN THE CONTEXT OF what Tolle and Katie are writing (i.e. chewing meat and spitting bones). Nevertheless -- I am thrilled to see someone make this point about how ALL moments are now and present. What a wonderful thing to see at ANY level!

Again -- WELL STATED!

Well said! A man once pointed out how apparent contradictions are resolved by point-of-view. Free-will and Predestination appear to contradict each other. The contradiction is resolved to a paradox by understanding the points of view: God's (unlimited) and human (limited). We are locked in time and space with limited view. God is outside time and space with unlimited knowledge. In His unlimited knowing, He has prepared (see comment above) or "predestined" those who are "elect". God knows who will choose by their own free will and who will reject. God knows who will have faith, who will work with the Spirit to the forming of Christ in them and who will flatly reject. Those who accept are elected and predestined. God understands the quality of each heart towards Himself and His working. It is this understanding and His Omnipotent knowledge that forms the basis for Him to elect and predestine. Our place is limited in time and space. Our place is to choose and work through the matter that for God is a forgone conclusion. My focus (as yours) is to be on the setting aside of my own mind for the Mind of Christ in me (you). If your up to bat, you'll not hit the ball if you're watching the entire game. Focus on the BALL! In this case: Christ in you, His mind in you. PLEASE NOTE: I have noted how people who either reject Christ or are apathetic towards Christ because of Predestination, are typically emotional feeding over the matter. In some cases, they are angry because they don't get to choose. This reminds me of the story Jesus told of the Talents. The man who hid his talent (money) complained about what he "knew" about God: Mat 25:24 And he who had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew that you were a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter. On what basis did he "know"? Was it reality? Was it true of the nature of God? Regardless -- the answers to these questions are actually (almost) of no value and not the point. The point is: The man made up his own mind and was feeding on His own rebellious anger in a power and control struggle with God. Notice how he lost the battle in the end: Mat 25:25 And I was afraid and went and hid your talent in the earth. Lo, you have yours. Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said to him, Evil and slothful servant! You knew that I reaped where I did not sow, and gathered where I did not scatter, Mat 25:27 then you should have put my money to the exchangers, and coming I would have received my own with interest. Mat 25:28 Therefore take the talent from him and give it to him who has ten talents. Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will abound. But from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away from him. Reminds me of what Paul wrote: Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens. Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way? Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; Scriptures such as this are the foundation of the Free-will Vs. Predestination arguments. I ask you to focus on the emotional content of what Paul is pointing out. Look how people gin up emotions to feed on, to reject God, reject Christ, reject His place, His authority, His judgements and His working and choose their own ways, own thinking and own will over His. At the core of rejecting Christ and His working in us is emotional content: ALWAYS! There is always emotion at the end of the trail, the driving force -- and to what purpose? For the feeding of the lusts of the flesh! It is always true. Want more proof? Look at Muslims believing in Islam. Look at how they live and respond to things: rioting in the streets, blowing themselves up and even killing each other when they are not killing "Christian Infidels". Do you see what I mean? Thus, the thing to see is the flesh lust feeding emotions behind the Free-will Vs. Predestination. People are more willing to use this matter as a vehicle towards ginning up emotions to feed their lusts on than they are to look beyond it to get to real answers and the truth of the matter. It's all about lust, all about emotions to feed lusts and all about thoughts. It's all about a human mind enslaved to the flesh and the lusts of it for the purpose of the Slave Master: FEED ME! See under the matters. See beneath them. See the driving forces, the players and their purposes. Now -- turn to God and see what He's trying to do: Put His mind in US! P.S.: I am not "picking on" Muslims. Christians do it as well. So do we all. We're all human. Most times, religion (or anti-religion) is just a vehicle or a means to an end: Feeding the lusts of the flesh with thoughts, emotions, words and actions. You'll find it in ALL people no matter what we believe. Heck -- look at American politics these days! No substance, no honest debate, just debate for the sake of revving people up emotionally to say, "We're RIGHT -- You are WRONG!" Self-righteous PRIDE. My earnest prayer is for us to all see this thing for what it is.

"Even paul did not Know if he was asleep or not ..." You are NOT giving me a quote from scripture. Quote it please. "but [sic] you are not changing any minds here." I am NOT in the business of changing minds; Christ is. "You do sound a bit angry though [sic]" Eph 4:26 "Be angry, and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down upon your wrath, ..." I am deeply human and I have plenty of "anger" in me that is NOT righteous (i.e. I get angry and it IS sin). For the most part, I am not angry here at all. Please do not confuse zeal for shining light on deception with anger. The question is: If there is anger, is it coming from my mind (enslaved to the lusts of my flesh) or is it coming from the Mind of Christ in me? Here is where we get to try me and prove in me whether this thing I have said above and on this post is of the Mind of Christ or of my own mind. I am happy to have that pointed out. So, to that end -- please show me where this is NOT the Mind of Christ? Please point out to me where there are not the fruits of the Spirit, but (rather) the works of the flesh? "I doubt even you would be able to stand upright if the presence Of [sic] The Lord God came down before you in such a way." Where did I ever claim to be able to stand upright in the presence "Of" the Lord God? Again -- this is an Ad Hominem attack: Ignore the message and attack the messenger. It is emmensely human to defend oneself with "You're not perfect either." It's human, childish and distinctly OF the human mind, yours and mine (I have done the same, probably will do the same again if I live more than another 30 minutes or so). " Just a bit of Our God' shoulder blinded Moses.!!! [sic]" What? God's "shoulder"? Please quote this to me Book, Chapter and Verse. Finally -- I am ok with your sympathies towards me concerning my past experiences. However, your sympathy is not what this is about. I have made the point simple and direct: "Slain in the Spirit" is NOT to be found in scripture. Jesus didn't "slay" anyone in the Spirit. The Spirit didn't "slay" anyone in Acts and beyond. Paul doesn't speak about it as a normal thing in the gathering and activity of the Church. Peter doesn't mention it. None of the disciples and apostles mention it. These same folks that, these days, go about hanging shingles and labels of "Spirit of God" on things are not only appalling, but almost looney: "Barking in the Spirit", "Laughing in the Spirit (Holy Laughter)" and such carrying on. HOGWASH! It is hyper-emotional feeding -- which IS feeding the lusts of the flesh on the emotions of such things. People going about looking for the "next experience." This is NOT the Mind of Christ. This is NOT His mind in US. This is NOT the Spirit of God working. The work of the Spirit of Grace and the Lord is the building of the Mind of Christ in us so that we, together as the church of Christ, are fully formed up in to the full stature of Christ in our generation.

One other thing: That was quite a stretch to say that I was saying ALL of what happens in churches and labeled as "The Spirit of God" is not so. That is NOT what I was saying. There is MUCH of the working of the Spirit of God, yet I wonder. A pastor friend of mine asked me once, "Larry, why are you not coming to church? Answer me honestly." "Well, Pastor", I said, "I was raised a Methodist and you folks don't do it like they do it. I don't know about this raising of hands and so on." Then he said to me, "Larry, you may have the truth and I may have a lie, but I have seen my lie change more lives than your truth ever will!" For many years, I thought that was quite a reply and response. So much so, that I joined that church and was there for many years. I clung to that church to the bitter end. I was twenty-one when I had that conversation above. I am 44 now (almost a whopping 45). There's been a couple years between then and now. What I am wondering at is the "changed lives". Jesus said to the Jews: Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Having a change in life and life-style is NOT the "sign" of God working and the Spirit of God working. Having the Mind of Christ formed in us and the fruits of THAT change is. Do you see what I am saying? There is a vast difference between generic change and the change that results from having the Mind of Christ IN us (you and me). Notice what Jesus is saying above: The Jews were making "converts". Being "converted" is not what this is about. Jesus points directly and says the person "converted" is now TWICE the "child of hell" that the Jew's He was talking to were. WOW! Get that! Ponder it! Dwell on it for a moment! Give it some focus and let it expand for you!

Put to sleep in the Spirit! BWAHAHAHAHA ... You've got to be kidding! Every place I can find in the NT about "sleep" has to do with death and dying. Also, there is no "put to sleep in the Spirit of God" in the scripture. THIS is PRECISELY what I am talking about when pointing out how people make things up. Anecdotal evidence based on experience, feelings, emotions and so on. I am NOT saying there is no Holy Spirit. I am NOT saying there are no giftings and workings of the miraculous. I am NOT saying there is not an outpouring of His Spirit on us by the laying on of hands. I am NOT saying there are NOT tongues and interpretations. I am NOT "dis" 'ing the Spirit of God. What I am "dis" 'ing is the mind of US human beings -- radically and powerfully ENSLAVED to the lusts of our flesh. I don't know about you, but my FLESH goes with me to church. My mind goes as well. All of me "attends church". I have heard preachers point out how the devil goes to church, FAITHFULLY. Well, so do all my uncomely parts and peices, so does all my sinful nature, so does my flesh, so do my lusts and so on. How does our human mind, enslaved to the lusts of our flesh, act and behave at church? How does the flesh feed at church? How do we lap at the trough of lusts while at church? Do you think we can do so with doctrines and dogmas? Do you think we can do so with what we do and say and hang a shingle on it that reads, "SPIRIT OF GOD HERE!" YOU BET WE CAN! Not only can we -- WE DO! Many of us. I did for 20+ years. You may "know" things you think are "of" the Spirit of God, but I SURELY do know how my own flesh behaved and still would like to behave along with the aid of my human flesh lust enslaved mind AT CHURCH and DOING church things! Personally, I am unmoved and unconvinced at the "This is how I worship and how the Spirit is for me" argument. Unity, Unity, Unity of the ... SPIRIT OF GOD and Christ formed in us ... His mind in US. THIS is the ONLY true thing we have. This is the ONLY source of getting at the truth of what Christ is wanting to accomplish in us.

I apologize for the "misquote" -- my bad. I do not apologize for the comment. It is not what I believe that is important. It is what is TRUE that is important. You've all done the Ad Hominem attack. You've attacked the messenger and ignored the message. Let's see ... is there the human mind at work in this? Disunity is OF the human mind (mine and yours). Unity is of the Spirit working in us -- placing the Mind of Christ in us. Since this is true it means only one thing: One or ALL of us does NOT have the Mind of Christ in us on this matter. So, the next question is: Who is it without the Mind of Christ on the matter? Please focus on what I said and not on what you "think" my motives are (i.e. Pride was mentioned and so on). I am praying for the Unity of the Spirit of God and Christ in us (His Mind in US) -- together -- all of us! I am not here to respond with accusations and judgements against you. If you are without the Spirit and Mind of Christ in you, you are already judged and there is nothing I can add to that. I am not here to also do an Ad Hominem attack against you; ignoring your message and inventing "my personal perceptions of your emotions and motives". I want for you the Mind of Christ in you and also in me. I am aware that I am not flawless and that the change in me is the same as in you: a process happening over time. My challenge to you all is simple: focus on what I said and the content of it, the substance of it. Is what I said untrue? If so, where and what about it is untrue? Again -- my prayer and hope is that we all have Christ formed up in us together and come to the unity of the Spirit of God in Christ in us (His mind in US). Finally -- I love you all in Christ and the depths of Him in us. I am not here to attack you, ridicule you or otherwise feed my own lusts on the emotions of such things. I hope for and desire the goodness of God for you all.

I spent many years in a "Pentecostal movement" church. I have been "slain in the Spirit" many times. I have a word for it now: Hogwash! Such "services" (church, revival, evangelist, etc) are long on emotion, hyper, intense, whipped-up roller-coasters, where the power of suggestion and mental pictures and flesh feeding on the emotions runs completely amok. There is so much mental noise and people feeding the lusts of their flesh on "Christianity" (so-called), it makes me dizzy. There are no instances in the scripture where anyone is EVER "slain in the Spirit" -- just horse-hockey!

Honestly -- I could care less what "We believe". What I am deeply concerned and interested to know is what God thinks: His mind, not mine, not yours, not a man -- HIM! I don't need more opinions, thoughts and mental noise from the trash-heap of the human mind! What I need is the Mind of Christ dwelling in me, forming in me, working in me, His thoughts by His Spirit and then the emotions, words and actions flowing from Him formed in me working out in my life! You need the same. So do we all. Try setting aside what "We believe" and start working towards prayerfully asking the Lord Jesus Christ, by His Spirit to form His Mind IN you, setting aside ALL of your thoughts and taking up His. This is my aim and my target, this is my focus and hunger. I am deeply, deeply, deeply sinful and wicked and in great need of His mind. I am not worthy, I am unworthy, I am a sinner to the core of my being and sold to sin, my mind enslaved to the lusts of the flesh and the sin in it. As Paul said, Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God ... Jesus Christ, His work, His death, His resurrection and Him alive, His Spirit in me and His Spirit forming His mind in me.

Because most Christians have no clue what being a Christian is really all about: It is about having our minds set aside and the Mind of Christ born and operating in us. There is NO disunity in the Mind of Christ -- NONE! If you see disunity, you are witnessing the minds of men at work. The minds and thoughts of men are desperate to feeding thier own flesh and the lusts of it. Disunity is comes from the mind, thoughts, emotions and lusts of the flesh of people -- NOT the Mind of Christ. There is no shadow of turning in the Mind of Christ, the Mind of God, the Spirit of God -- NONE. If you are asking people to "get along" in their own minds, thoughts, emotions and lusts -- then -- you are asking for the impossible. It will never happen -- NOT EVER! What we are to be seeking is the Mind of Christ in us, the setting aside of our own minds for His in us and in THIS we find unity. Here is the point of worthwhile striving (labor and work). Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. What is the calling of God? The calling of God is to have "Christ formed in us" Gal 4:19 My children, for whom I again travail until Christ should be formed in you, This was the goal of Paul -- FIRST -- for himself and then for those around him. This was his ministry -- To see Christ formed IN people (The Mind of Christ in us). Look at what Paul wrote in Philippians above: "Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, ..." <-- perfect? perfect? What in us can possibly be "perfect" (mature -- fully formed)? G5046 τέλειος teleios tel'-i-os From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect. None of these things is possible with US -- with OUR minds -- NOT ONE THING! BUT -- with the Mind of Christ in us; His mind in us -- they are not only possible, but expected and normal. The fruit of the Spirit working in us is His mind in us. From His mind comes His thinking, then His emotions, then His works, His words, His actions and so on. In Him in us -- His mind in us -- there is NO disunity, no arguing, no pandering, no shadow of turning -- NONE. There is unity of faith, unity of Spirit, unity in Christ and in the Father. Read John chapter 15 to read about Jesus describing it. You want us to all get along? Then we all need to have the Spirit of God, the Mind of Christ in us, His mind forming in us. Final note -- disunity is a signal. It is a road-sign. What is the signal and road-sign pointing at and warning us of? DANGER: Human Mind at Work! Get the Mind of Christ by the Spirit NOW!

Tell us about the person who had the "vision". In the meantime -- I rarely put any stock in such things. Most folks doing this are doing so for the twisted purpose of feeding thier own lusts: "Oooh -- look at me! I'm so spiritual. I had a vision. Ooooh-ahhhhh." It may not come off really "drippy" like what I have just written, but that's not the point. The point is: Anyone can start spouting off about anything. There's a whole "Group-think" thing that can go on. It brings to memory about Oral Roberts on television preaching. He suddenly stops, freezes in mid-step, cocks his head to one side and says, "Yes, Lord?" <-- As though God is speaking to him in some audible voice only he can hear. He goes on to have a "conversation with God." This is the precise hucksterism that goes on because of people living deeply in our deluded enslaved to lust minds! Not only are their people willing to get up and perform such wicked nonsense, but gullible people by the thousands willing to go along with it all. I am not going to say such a thing cannot happen, but what I will say is: I don't find Jesus cocking His head to one side and saying, "Yes, Father? .. ahhh No, Father, I was gonna tell em'. Sure, Father, I'll do that. Ok, all you people, the Father just spoke me and you all need to ..." I have heard people talk about visions and have been in church services with serious "men of God" delivering a "word of knowledge" and everyone in the room shaking their heads, "Yes, yes." Generic, made up, caca nonsense! And then to have some ... somewhere here, I am going to cross a line and start mocking this and THAT is not the mind of Christ. Seriously -- don't we have anything better to do than to chase after things like this. I know you've asked a serious question. I am not making fun. All I am wanting to ask you to do for yourself is take some serious stock of your own self and ask you to find this kind of thing happening in the New Testament as a result of the mind of Christ being either in Jesus Himself (it is His mind after all) or in anyone else by inspiritation and working of the Holy Spirit. The snake oil flows when the scripture goes and the mind of Christ is unknown or ignored.

Another thing comes to me: Jesus promised division along one set of lines. 1. There are those who have the mind of Christ and the Spirit of God. 2. There are all others who are deeply lost in their own minds. Expect this line of division to be expressed in your life. Expect people to not understand. Expect them to walk in their own minds, self-inflicted pain and to separate themselves from you in anger, jealousy, sin and more. Expect people to not walk in the mind of Christ -- what I mean is -- do not be surprised by it. Hope for more. Hope for salvation. Hope for reconciliation. Hope that people find the bankruptcy view of their own minds and seek the mind of Christ. Moreover, whether they do or not -- live the from the mind of Christ: Love. Love from His mind in you. Get and walk in His thoughts and when you do, it will be then with His love. You'll love your sister regardless of what mind she walks in. You'll love her with the mind of Christ in you. You'll love her when she doesn't go to church. You'll love her with His mind in you. You'll love her when she doesn't communicate with you or when she talks to you in angry words. You'll know that her words are borne of her own enslavement to her own lusts by the natural mind in her. You'll do what Jesus did when He hung on the cross: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing. You'll walk the same towards your sister: Father, forgive her, she's walking in her natural mind and doesn't know or understand her own enslavement in her own mind and lack of Your mind in her. You'll reach out to her in prayer in His mind. You'll reach out to her in love in His mind. You'll send her letters; leave her notes; send her Christmas cards and birthday cards in Love in His mind in you. You'll suffer her insults and back turning and ignoring for long, long periods of time because you'll be seeing your own struggle with your own mind and being enticed and it will give you compassion for her. You'll do what Jesus said: Love others AS your own self. You'll see them as they are: A part of you waiting to be born from above and not from beneath. You'll see the hope and possiblity in love of her redemption and walking in the mind of Christ in her as well. You'll long for the joy of that fellowship and unity with her that is beyond the bonds of your sibling relationship. And if reconciliation never comes? Jesus will wipe away your tears and turn your mourning into joy unspeakable. Until then -- seek the Mind of Christ in you!

Re-read what you've written and ask: Is this the mind of Christ? Is this what Jesus thinks about it. Moreover, I struggled with depression and anxiety for many years. I no longer struggle. I walk in victory and freedom. That victory walk started with a little book I read in 15 minutes. It was a book that opened my eyes to how I work and to see how I was the major source and cause of my own internal pain and misery that I called being depressed. I am happy to share with you the details of that if you like. Walking in victory and joy comes at the expense of seeing the truth about how you work. It comes at the expense of paying a certain cost: Laying aside your mind for His in you. However, BEFORE you can do that, you must have a reason to do so. The reason is simple: Your mind is enslaved to your flesh and the lusts of it. Your own mind is killing you in this enslavement. The pain of depression you feel is coming because your enslaved mind is producing thoughts for the express purpose of producing the painful emotions and your flesh is feeding on them. Your flesh is literally producing a chemical reaction to the emotions that your flesh feeds on like a drug addict. What will motivate you towards the mind of Christ is when you see the enslavement, bankruptcy, powerlessness and hopelessness of your own mind to free itself! The pain of depression is a severe emotion, which your flesh and lusts are feeding from. Your enslaved mind is enticed by the lusts of your flesh to continue to dwell in thoughts of the past or future. Why? The thoughts you have about events in the past or future produce in you the emotional reaction that the lusts of your flesh crave and want to feed on. See the truth of this. You have a choice. Ask the the Lord Jesus to forgive you and to send His Spirit in to you. Then, focus on what the Spirit leads you in, read your Bible for seeing what Jesus thinks and then live in those thoughts. Seek and find the mind of Christ in you by His Spirit. This is the miracle power of Grace working in you: to transform and renew your mind, the imprinting of His mind on you, so you quit being enslaved to the lusts of your flesh and become a daughter of God by virtue of having His mind in you. Do this: right now -- quit thinking about the past, stop thinking about the future. Sit in silence for a moment and take in the moment -- NOW -- that you are in (always). It is ALWAYS NOW! It is never the past. It is never the future. It is always NOW. Sit in silence. Go under the noise of the world around you to the stillness beneath. Turn inward and find the Spirit of God within you in soft stillness beneath the noise of the thoughts of your mind. Sit in His presence, in His Spirit and then open yourself up to Him working in you. Sit there with Him. Now, focus on the scripture and finding the Mind of God in the words. Read for the mind of Christ. Find His thinking. Set aside what you think. Set aside what you believe. Become VERY suspicious of what YOU think -- Vs -- What HE thinks. Know that ALL that you think with YOUR mind is enslavement to the lusts of your flesh. In the present moment that you are in, quit looking at and stop focusing on how you think you are a victim. Focus on the God-given, God-provided choices He has given to you in THAT moment and EACH moment you find yourself in. Whatever you focus on expands. Focus on being a victim: You'll become more of one. Focus on anger: You'll have more. Focus on you: You'll only get more of the same. Focus on the mind of Christ: The Spirit will move, His mind imprinting on yours; You'll have more of Him in you. Whatever you focus on expands! Now, as for others who do NOT do what you want, or think what you think and so on. First, you ONLY have control of yourself: not them. Quit basing your happiness on how you think (with your enslaved mind) others remove choices from you. Start placing your focus on the choices given to you in the moment by the God who loves you. Focus on NOW! Focus on the Spirit of God. Focus on the mind of Christ in you. Seek Him in you, His mind in you. What are His thoughts about where you are NOW? What are the choices He is giving you right now to do? Are they good? Are they painful? One final thing: When you set aside YOUR mind for His, your flesh and lusts will do at least two things: 1. Your flesh and lusts will NOT get fed by the mind of Christ as they did by your mind. As a result they will scream in pain. You're going to FEEL pain. This expected. This is what is supposed to happen. This is the process of denying yourself, picking up your cross and "following" (going after the pattern of the mind of Christ in you) Christ. It is not fun. It is not pleasant. It is not easy. It is not nice. Jesus promised you NONE of these things. 2. Your flesh and lusts will re-double their enticement of you. They will do ALL they can to draw you BACK in to your natural mind and to remove your focus from the mind of Christ in you BACK to your carnal mind. Be awake! Be sober! Watch! Seek Him! Seek the Spirit in you! Seek His mind in you! Suffer the denial of your lusts! Pick up the cross of denying the lusts of your flesh to follow after His mind in you. Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life. If you walk in the Spirit (mind) of Christ/God in you-- THEN -- the fruits of the Spirit come AUTOMATICALLY. You don't have to coax an apple true to produce apples. You don't have to beg a tomato plant to bear tomatos. No, you grow the plant to get the fruit you want. IF you want the fruits of the Spirit (mind) of Christ, then focus on the Spirit of God in you (mind of Christ in you). Final thing -- GO TO CHURCH! Ask the Lord to lead you to the church HE wants you in. Do what the scripture commands: Try the spirits (minds) and see if they are of God. Nevertheless, seek the Lord Jesus Christ in you, by His Spirit and mind in you for the church He wants you in. You are NOT an orphan, you are a part of the body. He has a place for you. Find a church, THE body He wants you to be in and then -- GO! Here is a suggestion: Print THIS out and carry it with you as you go to church. Have someone there read it. If they don't get it: RUN! If they DO get it, then ask the Lord about it. Regardless, go where the Lord Jesus leads you by His Spirit. Ask Him to lead you to people who have HIS MIND in them. You need them. THEY NEED YOU and the mind of Christ in you. That is what makes the body of Christ the Body of Christ!

Hi Dan, I mean intimacy in the deepest spiritual sense -- not the physical. Physical intimacy to me is a side-bar issue. I could see where you were pointing and I am happy that you re-clarified the matter for all of us! I only brought up physical intimacy because of other people reading. We are very carnal and physical creatures and certain words trigger us towards that. Intimacy can be one of those words. So, I added the caution. My intended audience includes you, but is not limited to you. The Lord keep you brother