mizzdy

There is a difference in 'tribulations', I believe we have been in a tribulation since Adam was thrown out of the garden, and with certainty since Messiah rose to the heavenly throne room. What Yeshua spoke of in Matt. 24 describes a thlipsis and a megathlipsis, a trib and a great trib. We will not be here for the orgay, the wrath which happens at His coming when we are taken up to meet Him. I guess I am 'pre-wrath' for lack of a better expression. I also see many prophecies that have dual fulfillments, just as everything God does in cyclical in nature I firmly believe there is nothing new under the sun and mankind has been through many many similar events throughout time. If we were in the millennial reign we would be with Him, wouldn't we? shalom, Mizz Mizz, the "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure") that I believe Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is what HE started in Matthew 23:38: Matthew 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. KJV This, of course, is a quotation from Psalm 118:26: Psalm 118:22-26 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now (Hebrew: "howshiy`aah naa' " = Greek: "hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. KJV The Hebrew of this sentence in verse 26 is "Baruwkh haba' b'sheem YHVH." Literally, the phrase "Baruwkh haba' " is translated "Blessed, the-comer" but it is translated into English as "Welcome" at the airports and seaports of Isra'el (although usually in the plural)! Indeed, one might hear the phrase when one is welcomed into a Jewish home in Isra'el or into one's sukkah! Therefore, Yeshua` was saying that He would not return until the Jews of Jerusalem would WELCOME Him into their city IN THE AUTHORITY OF YAH, i.e. as the Mashiach Eloheeynu, the Messiah of our God! THAT is the "gap" that HE put in the timeline of the seventy sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27. HE left them desolate - bereft of their Messiah - until they welcome Him back! (And, they must do so "out of the house of the LORD" or out of the Temple, which therefore must be rebuilt.) Therefore, left bereft of their Messiah and their house left desolate, they will suffer their desolation under pressure (thlipsis) until the day that Yeshua` returns. The great pressure ("thlipsis megalee," or as you put it, "megathlipsis") was a CONDITIONAL thing! Don't get me wrong; there WILL be a "tees thlipseoos tees megalees" in the future, according to Revelation 7:14, but that is NOT what Matthew 24:21 is talking about. Yeshua` said, Matthew 24:20-21 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV This is a CONDITIONAL statement! Essentially, He was saying that if they did NOT pray as instructed, that THEN there would be "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." However, we know that the internal evidence of this chapter tells us that the details of this "tribulation" were experienced in the first century, and from history, we learn that no such "great tribulation" was experienced in the first century. Therefore, we should conclude that they were able to avoid it by praying as they were instructed and by God honoring their prayers. Yeshua` is NOT foretelling an event called the "thlipsis megalee" that will happen in OUR future; He was foretelling an event that MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED in His listeners' future, but was providentially avoided! However, they were also promised that the pressure would not be constant but that there would be lulls and reprieves from the pressure periodically: Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. KJV This is why the history of the Jews' tribulation over the last 2000 years could be categorized into inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, and even the holocaust with periods of relative peace in between these events. While we have suffered the consequences of sin, both our own and those of others who have gone before us, those sufferings can hardly be called a "thlipsis." If they could have been, why didn't Yeshua` mention it? No, this "pressure" is distinctive and separate from the normal "groanings" of this world. I don't have time to go through larger posts most days but wanted to put this out, there is a difference between 'thlipsis and megathlipsis, which is what Yeshua spoke of for the end of the age. I certainly believe we have been in a 'thlipsis' since Adam was thrown out of the garden and more so since He rose to the heavenly throne room. Yet we are told that we will face a 'great tribulation' at the end of the age. And for the record I do not think anything is specifically for the 'Jews' but for all who know and confess Him. shalom, Mizz

Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God. It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah. shalom, Mizz Of the saints to whom you refer they are the 'tribulation saints' those who come through the tribulation and do not accept the mark of the beast and are killed for their belief. They are the ones who did not believe and missed the rapture. As many have said - the greatest revival will be after the rapture because those who heard the truth and did not accept it will grieve once the rapture has taken place because of their folly. These are the one who will come out of the tribulation and will cry for their blood to be avenged. These are not the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That stops at the rapture. The Holy Spirit still works during the tribulation but does not seal. As to Satan, he is no longer the highest ranking cherub covered with jewels and in the presence of the Father. Sin has a way of changing your very appearance. Hate changes the face. Satan is full of hate for Jesus Christ who he tried in vain to stop from fulfilling the Father's plan of salvation for man and now he has a great deal of hate for the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit - those who are called by the name of Christ and washed in His blood. Hate changes a being. He is not the angel that you think he is. He is only allowed into the Father's presence to contend for the souls of men. He has control of the each. What do you see in the face of a person who hates - it is not a face you would want in your friend or loved one. You are confusing ministering angels who love and do the Father's bidding with the one who hates the Son of God. Saints missing the rapture, thats a new one for the books, that is also stretching the scriptures to the breaking point also. It is the angels of God who seals the elect not the Spirit. Theres a lot of dancing around with scriptures to prove a pretrib rapture, and well it just doesn't add up with scripture at all, we are not appointed to go through Gods wrath and that happens immediately after He returns and the angels have gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. But for those who are forever stuck in the idea that God is going to take away christians before the great tribulation theres no amount of scriptures that will change ones mind. I would suggest an end depth study into the feasts of God, after all most believe He fulfilled the spring feasts but ignore the fall ones altogether. Satan is fallen, still the god of this world, still accusing us to God, still the same as he was when he decided to tempt Eve. I have known a lot of men and woman in my life who are hate just about every single thing in thier life, their hearts are stony and their actions match but I would not say their faces have turned to ugliness, matter of fact one of the prettiest woman I have known is one of the meanest, nastiest woman I have ever known. So the theory that satan turned ugly and evil looking is false. I am not confusing anything at all, God has a counsel, satan was present in that counsel according to Job 1:6-7 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." So yes satan is still there, was in the divine council of God's with the other angels. shalom, Mizz

Since the entire tribe of Levi was taken to become priests assignments had to be made, just like Zecharias was assigned a rotation to light the incense in the temple. There was a whole tribe of Levi's who became the priesthood, each 'elder and sons' were given an assignment that carried down over the generations, thousands of men had to have some job to do. Gate keepers roles were very important, they knew the comings and goings of all that went through the gates. I would think also they are watchmen and just as today many are called to be watchmen over the body of Yeshua. Thats off the top of my head so theres probably more to see here. shalom, Mizz

to mean you are now no longer premil or pretrib, but I understand now you meant differently. Yes, but please understand also that, although I am premillennial, I am not pretribulational rapturist any more. In fact, I don't believe there are "seven years" left. I believe that the "Tribulation" has been going on for almost 2,000 years, and that 1/2 of the 70th seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 is already past. The first 3.5 years - the first 1/2 of the 70th seven - was fulfilled in the "earthly ministry" of Yeshua` during His first advent. Therefore, while the "Tribulation" is still going and and will continue until Yeshua` returns and rescues the nation Isra'el from captivity, from slavery and from an attempted massacre, the 70th seven only has 3.5 years left. So, what COULD I be? I can't be pretribulational rapturist because there's no way that the Rapture could occur before the "Tribulation" nor could it be seven years prior to Yeshua`s Second Coming! I refuse to be a Full Preterist because there's too much allegory and assumed figurative language in its explanation of the fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as well as Dani'el and the book of Revelation! I cannot be a posttribulational rapturist because much of Revelation occurs AFTER and DURING the Second Coming. I believe that the Second Coming of Yeshua` haMashiach is more of a period of time than a single event. The seven bowl judgments are PART of the Second Coming! The "Rapture" is PART of the Second Coming as a first stage to the Coming! The transporting of God's people TO ISRA'EL will take some time, even though the transformation process itself will be in the "twinkling of an eye." The "Rapture" is NOT for "escapism!" Its purpose is NOT to avoid God's Wrath; its purpose is to transport His believers to ISRA'EL as His army to aid in the rescue operation! I cannot be a Pre-Wrath Rapturist because they still believe in a seven-year period that is divided in two where the second half is called the 'Wrath of God" or the "Great Tribulation." I might be called a form of Partial Preterist in the sense that I believe some of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century and part of it will be fulfilled in the 3.5 years prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah, but there's already a position called "Partial Preterist" that I cannot accept because they say that too much has already been fulfilled in the first century, especially in the book of Revelation with only the last 2 or 3 chapters left to be fulfilled! So, what AM I? All I can definitely say is that I'm a premillennialist. This is rather interesting. I agree the tribulation has already started, and waxes and wanes but has been going on since Christ's return, and will continue until His second return. I find it unfathomable to be post mill, to me that logic is so warped I cannot begin to comprehend it. So I am left with a "post trib" (well, I have SOME issues with that position, but it's close enough) rapture and Christ's return before the Millennial reign (of which, I am not sure of the length). As for the 7 years, I really don't study it that much. Full preterism frightens me - the idea that we are in the Mill reign now seems so easily refuted. Some of what Christ said was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in AD70 although I am not sure if that is enough to be considered a partial preterist? There is a difference in 'tribulations', I believe we have been in a tribulation since Adam was thrown out of the garden, and with certainty since Messiah rose to the heavenly throne room. What Yeshua spoke of in Matt. 24 describes a thlipsis and a megathlipsis, a trib and a great trib. We will not be here for the orgay, the wrath which happens at His coming when we are taken up to meet Him. I guess I am 'pre-wrath' for lack of a better expression. I also see many prophecies that have dual fulfillments, just as everything God does in cyclical in nature I firmly believe there is nothing new under the sun and mankind has been through many many similar events throughout time. If we were in the millennial reign we would be with Him, wouldn't we? shalom, Mizz

Do tell. Where do you get that date from? Is this before or after the pope changed the calendar way back when. It comes from the book of Luke. We know when Jesus was taken to the temple for that thing that they did 40 days after his birth. There was a woman there that had been praying in the temple all night and the temple is/was only open one night a year. Luke tells us that it was the XX (I'd have to look up the actual number) year of the rule of Tiberius and that puts it in 3BC. Well Josephus put the death of Herod during the year 4BC because of an eclipse and did not consider that there was also an Eclipse in 1BC and the Catholic Church picked the date of 4BC for Herod's death (long story). so people rejected the Bible itself for the date and went along with Josephus instead of Luke. Anyway that night was a Jewish holiday and when you back up 40 days from that day and look where it was in 3BC it ends up on September 11, 3BC. There is a rather large book I could try and find that goes into a lot of detail if you want me to look it up. Seems like it was about 600 pages long and was rather boring, but informative. Also when you look in Revelation at the description of the lady in the sky with the stars on her head and things under her feet, it describes the movement of the moon and several stars that only happened on that particular night. I know that's kind of a sketchy reasoning, but it's been a long time since I looked at any of that stuff and I'm gettin on up there in years you know. I have heard this a number of times, and it is true Yeshua was born sometime in Sept or Oct. whenever Sukkot was taking place, we have other accounts in scripture that line up with that, Zechariah's temple service is one of those ways also. I don't think we can pinpoint the exact day of His birth, the feast last many days, first Yom Teruah, then count 10 days of Awe, Yom Kippur then Sukkot, He could have been born any time during that. Although it does make one think that if He was circumcised on the last great day after Sukkot we can count back 8 days and figure that out. Thing is we are not told what day His birth is, that makes me think we are not to know it nor keep the day, that we are to keep the things of God and not the things of man. shalom, Mizz Mizz, how many nights a year is/was the temple open for the lady to have prayed all night? It was Mary's purification that happens after the birth of a male child, He was still circumcised at 8 days. There is still no way to know which date He was born on, but since He was born during these feasts He would have been taken sometime at the beginning of Nov. to even the first of Dec. Off hand I think that on the feast of Hanukkah the temple was opened all night so that could be the night you are thinking about and it could coincide with the 40 day cleansing of Mary.

Perhaps, I really dont have problems with bdays, we don't really celebrate them, even as kids mom would let us pick our dinner and dessert but there were never presents and all that stuff. Ok putting a disclaimer out right now. I personally do not bash christmas, trees or whatnot, I mean how many people today actually bend and bow and worship a tree? I do not believe there is a date set in scripture for our Messiahs birth, so that tells me God didn't set up a day for us to celebrate it if it had been so important to do I think He would have outlined it. I stick to the holydays He gave mankind and as I said I do not think we should put His name on something He didn't. I am not on that goes around smashing people in the head for 'pagan' stuff, I may occasionally write that He was not born on Dec. 25 and put out my thoughts but thats about it, christman/pagan bashing just isn't my thing. Just felt that I should get that out before I get bombarded with any more of the comments on the subject. Ok disclaimer over back to subject. shalom, Mizz

Do tell. Where do you get that date from? Is this before or after the pope changed the calendar way back when. It comes from the book of Luke. We know when Jesus was taken to the temple for that thing that they did 40 days after his birth. There was a woman there that had been praying in the temple all night and the temple is/was only open one night a year. Luke tells us that it was the XX (I'd have to look up the actual number) year of the rule of Tiberius and that puts it in 3BC. Well Josephus put the death of Herod during the year 4BC because of an eclipse and did not consider that there was also an Eclipse in 1BC and the Catholic Church picked the date of 4BC for Herod's death (long story). so people rejected the Bible itself for the date and went along with Josephus instead of Luke. Anyway that night was a Jewish holiday and when you back up 40 days from that day and look where it was in 3BC it ends up on September 11, 3BC. There is a rather large book I could try and find that goes into a lot of detail if you want me to look it up. Seems like it was about 600 pages long and was rather boring, but informative. Also when you look in Revelation at the description of the lady in the sky with the stars on her head and things under her feet, it describes the movement of the moon and several stars that only happened on that particular night. I know that's kind of a sketchy reasoning, but it's been a long time since I looked at any of that stuff and I'm gettin on up there in years you know. I have heard this a number of times, and it is true Yeshua was born sometime in Sept or Oct. whenever Sukkot was taking place, we have other accounts in scripture that line up with that, Zechariah's temple service is one of those ways also. I don't think we can pinpoint the exact day of His birth, the feast last many days, first Yom Teruah, then count 10 days of Awe, Yom Kippur then Sukkot, He could have been born any time during that. Although it does make one think that if He was circumcised on the last great day after Sukkot we can count back 8 days and figure that out. Thing is we are not told what day His birth is, that makes me think we are not to know it nor keep the day, that we are to keep the things of God and not the things of man. shalom, Mizz

Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God. It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah. shalom, Mizz

The one org. we give to regularly is Samaritans Purse, and part of our money goes to a group in Bongolo, Africa, one of our members son and daughter in law just signed on for a two year service in the hospital there as drs as well as evangelists. shalom, Mizz

Its like any addiction, except food is necessary for life. Its hard breaking patterns in ones life, stopping smoking is only successful if ones mind is willing to go the distance and one is willing to change the patterns of behavior associated with it. I don't have any easy answers, have you thought about fasting and praying for a day? not sure if its possible for you right now. shalom, Mizz

And I would think the feeling might be mutual.

Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz These Elders are in Rev.4:4 before Jesus Christ opens the Scroll that has 7 seals. These are not nor can ever be angels. Angels do not sit in the presence of the Father or the Lamb. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[b] of gold on their heads. Are you saying that angels are not allowed to be in the presence of God? where do you find that? Isn't satan still an angel? and we know he goes before God all the time as our accusors. We also see a divine counsel in Psalms 82 where there are 'gods' there, these are angels, since we know men are not apart of Gods council in any way. We know God sends forth His messengers, His angels to do His work, how can you not think that angels are not able to be apart of it all? I would really like to know your reasons why these cannot be angels. As I said before these cannot be men, mere mortal men, God never consults man before He does anything, He makes the rules and then He tells me what He is going to do through His prophets. Highlighting the word 'were' makes no sense, these elders are in the throne room, no man goes to Gods throne room, no man can be in His true presence and live. We do not know who these elders are, and we can suggest all we want and unless we can find a witness in scripture as to the identity of them its still a mystery. shalom, Mizz

I am shutting it down, we all know where its headed. And lets try to wait at least a few days before starting any more just to argue and prove ones point of scriptures, making threads that turn into catholics verses everyone else really is unedifying, unfruitful, after all how many have changed their mind at all about anything. shalom, Mizzdy

Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz

Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though. shalom, Mizz

I agree with almost all of this, except we are told that His Wrath comes in Revelation 6:17, before the Bowl Judgments. That said, we are not appointed to go through God's wrath, but to be delivered through His Son, Christ Jesus! He will not allow His Wrath to harm us one bit, but only those who are not His. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. If you read carefully the words there you see they are being spoken by men who feel as if the great trib is happening yet we still see the sealing of the tribes right after this, so its not the wrath being spoken of here but mans feelings on it. Also we are here when the witnesses show up so how can we be raptured in Rev. 6 but still be here to see the witnesses and anti-christ? The Bowls are the completeness of His wrath, not the beginning, as I read Revelation. Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. If they complete His wrath what starts it? It is Gods angels that announce each event, that and the blowing of the shofar, if Rev. 6 says men are claiming the wrath is going on where is the announcments from the angels? Rev. shows us the sequence, the seals, the trumpets, the witnesses and then the seven last plagues which are the bowl judgments. So it does seem that the bowls are the beginning and ending of His wrath on the wicked and unbelievers. shalom, Mizz

No. Rev 6:16-17 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" You can debate the first 5 seals, but it does not matter who it is speaking in the above passage, these people know it is the wrath of God being poured out upon them. That is the entire point, all through Revelation. They know it is the wrath of God, they know why it is being poured out and yet they continually refuse to repent. Everything after the 5th seal is God's wrath and to say that anyone pre-tribulation would be on the earth to suffer God's wrath both mocks scripture and calls God a liar. God promises the church that we will not suffer His wrath. The only way this theory can float at all is if one claims some kind of supernatural protection for saved people during this period which obviously does not exist because you have scads of people being killed for their faith and becoming tribulation saints. Dispensations are all throughout the Bible. They exist. As for what Paul was or was not, the only way you can concretely say anything about that is if you knew him personally. The pre-trib rapture, and a clear deliniation between the church and Israel is there, whether you wish to accept it or not. A pre-trib rapture was being talked about by writers as early as the 3rd century. Darby did not magically originate it. That is a false statement and usually repeated by people who wish to discredit a pre-trib rapture, but there is no truth to it. First off it was Darbys work that was brought into mainstream thinking through Scofield and dispensationalism, but I am not going argue anyone about where it comes from. Tribulation is thlipsis, wrath is orgay, two different meanings, two different contexts and are not the same thing. We go through the megathlipsis, the word afflicted in Matt. 24 is afflicted or thlipsis and not wrath. If those princes are correct and it is God's wrath then we will not see the witnesses, nor the anti-christ. Rev. shows that the wrath occurs after the seven seals and seven shofar blasts, the seven last plagues are the bowl judgments and the wrath of God. Rev. 8-Rev. 11 we see the saints still on the earth, some are marked with Gods mark some take the mark of the beast, at the coming of the MEssiah at the seventh shofar we are then raised to meet Him in the air. During the last seven plagues we do not see any writings about the saints so it seems Yeshua has come then, after the witnesses, and that is when the bowl judgments are unleashed on the wicked and unbelievers that are left. As far as the men in Rev. 6 crying out about the wrath, it is only men doing so, not one of Gods angels have made the proclamation that the wrath of God has come and that doesn't happen till later. It is mens thoughts not Gods, and He is the one who sends the angels out to annouce all that is going to take place, if Rev. 6 is the wrath then we will be here during that since we do see the elect after this in Rev. I can imagine men, the rich rulers, the ones who think they are in charge and then the great trib happens and they lose all, they are not liking this refining time and believe it is Gods wrath, but they have not seen His wrath yet and when they do they just may confess His name. Noah was given 120 years of tribulation, of building the ark amongst heathens, mockery and whatnot, then God said get into the ark but God did not seal the door for seven more days, people could still come to Him if they came in faith, Noah and his family could still hear the mocking and tormenting of his neighbors and was pretty much subject to the elements both outside and inside that ark. It was only after seven days that God sealed the ark, we see the same messages in the feasts outlined as well as the end of the age. God gives man so many years of tribulation or trials, He then brings us to a place of safety but still part of the world, then He lifts us up as He did Noah and pours His wrath out on all who still will not bend their hearts and will to Him.

It depends on the soil, bedrock and all that. I lived all over So.Cal and was in a lot of earthquakes. What I found is that even the quakes in the LA/Anaheim regions felt different than in the upper deserts of the state, and even some of the same size quakes are different depending on the fault.

I agree with almost all of this, except we are told that His Wrath comes in Revelation 6:17, before the Bowl Judgments. That said, we are not appointed to go through God's wrath, but to be delivered through His Son, Christ Jesus! He will not allow His Wrath to harm us one bit, but only those who are not His. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. If you read carefully the words there you see they are being spoken by men who feel as if the great trib is happening yet we still see the sealing of the tribes right after this, so its not the wrath being spoken of here but mans feelings on it. Also we are here when the witnesses show up so how can we be raptured in Rev. 6 but still be here to see the witnesses and anti-christ?

Tribulation is different than wrath, the words mean two different things, God set apart ones will go through the great tribualiton but they are not subject to Gods wrath which happens during the bowl judgments after the angels have gathered the elect to Messiah. Paul a pretribber! nonsense. How in the world could Paul be a pretribber when it wasn't until the early/mid 1800 when the doctrine jumped off the pages of scripture when John Darby realized theres a complete separation between Israel and the 'church' and Scofield picked it up and used that and dispensationlism as the basic of his bible. Paul never saw that, never believed the saints would not go through the great trib. Paul knows that Gods children are not destined to the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord is the wrath, the great trib is different. I suggest the author and others look up the words tribulation and wrath and see how they are different. shalom, Mizz

I don't agree with this at all. "For God so loved the world..." doesn't exclude anybody so I think that you are projecting your own prejudices into this. I think that it is blasphemous to include Judaism and the Catholic church in your list. Jesus was a Jew and practiced Judaism when he was a human so to include that faith in this list is to denigrate God's chosen people from whom came the Messiah. Although I don't agree with much of the teachings of Catholicism; they still worship God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I would suggest that you be very careful whom you slander. What if the seven mountains represent the seven hills of Rome and the ten horns represent the claims of the ten Roman emperors to divinity? This is far more likely than the scenario you have created. Just want to clarify one thing, yes Yeshua was from the line of Judah, but we need to remember the Judaism in its present form is not what Messiah followed or practiced, we can put the name Judaism if we want we just need to remember Judaism in its present form is rabbinical Judaism. There are also seven mountains in Saudi Arabia.

Just the title alone suggests a pharoah type ruling system, one we are told to come out of. I agree the US consitition is the best one out there this side of the kingdom of God, changing it would be wrong just look at whats happening now as its being manipulated and changed with each passing president. Can't see this thread being edifiying in any way at all. shalom, Mizzdy

In scripture we read of nose rings and not in a bad light either, but that is a far cry from piercings all over the face and whatnot. The markings or tattos in scripture were done for the dead, it was a pagan practice that had gained ground within Gods set apart people. Any time someone takes something and chooses to put Gods name on it its wrong. I'm not entirely sure what He thinks of tats which have His name or scriptures on a person I think thats between the person and God. What I don't like is people getting all uppity about what others have chosen to do and deciding it will stand between them and God, not our call, not anyones call but His. Just my nickels worth. shalom, Mizz Do you have a piercing for that nickel? Hmm not sure what you mean? I do have two holes in my ears but have not had a ear ring in them in decades. I have two tattos which are on my back and only one is visible and thats just the tip top of it that shows. I also do not wear makeup, not that I can't or think its wrong, I just have never really worn it at all. shalom, Mizz

Can't disagree, however you could keep the ten commandments all your life and still go to hell. Very true, the rich young man had kept the Torah all his life, thought that was what got him redemption/salvation, if we do not obey out of love and with love its all for nothing. shalom, Mizz

Not everyone knows how to live off the land nor live in a place where that can happen. Also we are told that a third of the land and water will be poisoned or gone, I am thinking that means here in America also. We first always must put our faith in Him, that whatever comes our way we will be able to withstand the trials He puts us through. God sent Joesph into captivity so he could be in the position to help his family I think we should do the same things. I applaud anyone who can and does live off the land who will be in positions to help others, its also my opinion that if at all possible we should also be in a position to help our neighbors no matter where we live. If there are those in ones neighborhood that will be the 'tattlers' or thieves then so be it, God will be the one who they answer to but to not try and put up some food, water and supplies in case of emercencies or even the collapse of our economy to help ones family or others seems a bit wrong to me. It always makes me wonder how people in cities, deserts will live off the land when there no land to live off of, no water readily available, no animals or anywhere to grow food, what should we tell those people? to move? Or perhaps those people need to store up for things to come and all the while keeping themselves in prayer and allowing Him to show one what they should do. shalom, Mizz