mizzdy

We haven't celebrated Hanukkah and not sure we will but a Menorah is much easier! I so love your post and agree it is dayenu! Mizz

I so agree, we rely on Him, we have faith in Him and not in ourselves! I can do nothing by myself but through Him who works in me, paraphrasing!

I am??! gee when did that happen? I feel really old now, legends are old. I see Shiloh already addressed the rest of your post. Its how one chooses to view history so your views are your views many have shown you all kinds of truths here. I see the early practices as the ones that were already in place, the things seen today whether they are wrong or right, is not what scriptures show and they are the ultimate authority. Sometimes when God is trying to show us something we fight the hardest and maybe He is trying to show you something in all these threads?

If you break down all that God said to tithe with we all might be standing around scratching our heads wondering how we could fulfill all of it! This is a link to a 'hebrew roots' guy who imho had one of the best talks on tithing I have heard, its two parter not sure how long they are and I am pretty much in agreement that there is no set 10% that we should give as our heart leads and as best we are able. And no matter what we give or to who once we do its out of our hands. We do see tithing in the NT we see Stephen put in charge of it all, they gave like they were supposed to from every increase they had, food, clothing, money etc. and I think thats what we should be seeing as our tithes, whatever we can find or have to give, time, money, prayer all those are serving Him. I'll take a listen to your link today.

Here's a link and another another I hope one of them works, I think the second was the original link given.

Oh goodness gracious! See this is what people think, foolish and harsh rules, when the words commandment, laws, hebrew roots, Messianics and even Torah, they see all those added rabbinical rules to God's simples rules to rest take it easy, get together with friends and family, talk about Him, have a meal, don't worry about tomorrow or the bills or... Sorry! its just so sad to think that ones every movement every gesture should be censored to prohibit the breaking of the 4th commandment. And that was what Yeshua was telling them all along to quit being numbskulls about His Words to quit making things burdensome and overbearing, to quit messing with His good and simple instructions. Sorry again for ranting!

I read an orticle last month that said they were haveing really good responce to snorting insulin. It seems it goes into the brain from our sinuses and promotes blood flow. Since mom died as a result of alzheimerst, I'm a little skiddish about it. THAT is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard. If you are not an insulin dependent diabetic - ingesting additional insulin in any form (injecting, orally or snorting) can cause death! Well, I really didn't make it up LoL http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20100714/insulin-nasal-spray-may-help-treat-alzheimers Now that is bizarre isn't it?! My mom is starting into the short downhill slide of no return she still has some good days but we all know the outcome. I am going to print that out and give it to my dr since she is now up in the air about whats going on in my brain hey I might benefit from something like this if it ever pans out that is.

Having grown up in So.Cal not only does the endless light pollution hamper the seeing of stars but the smog is also a barrior. I live in NV and anyone who has ever travelled across the west or other very large cities the lights can be seen for miles and miles and miles. When the MGM lit up the laser beam on the lion we could see it on the outskirts of Victorville. Even going over the hill to Pahrump does not get you away from light pollution. I wouldn't mind seeing Vegas dark just once! lol I had heard a story from older cousins about the 'lights' over LA and some of its beaches back in the 40's into the 50's but those boys new what stars looked like having been in the Navy. Wonder if they were some of the same 'lights'.

I didn't read of any outside of normal cycles though. I saw a vid on youtube this morning called, 'Coldest in 222 years volcanic increase & earthquakes cme' that say we are not within normal cycles. Doesn't mean the earth hasn't seen anything like what we are seeing though. I think we are experiencing the last of the birth pangs myself, waiting for the next shoe to fall...

I do find that those try and see the hebrew mindset, who search the hebrew do understand the word better than those who don't. I also find that some who say its the only way to understand scripture are not being led by the Spirit either. Personally I find its the best way to understand scriptures. Nor do I think that theres anything superior about those who do, nor do I think anyone who keeps the Feasts or Sabbaths believe they are superior to anyone else, walking in Gods cycles is the result of belief, confession of His name and teshuvah, returning to God. Ya gotta admit lekh finding the meaning of things in hebrew opens up a whole way of seeing the scriptures that wasn't there before and the amount of people that I have met just this past year alone that have found getting back into the roots of scriptures, or 'hebrew roots' have just exploded in knowledge and understanding that they did not 'see' before. No ones saying ya have to learn hebrew but a good concordance, or esword or some other really good stuff will help open a whole new world into the hebrew mind set.

I am in complete agreement with what you say here Shiloh The thing I do not understand, is why so many Believer's are astonishingly resistant to these facts, and attempt at all costs to shore up their lack of understanding by clinging to practices and teachings that developed in the mind of man...they prefer to maintain a non-Jewish context for traditions and teachings as though by doing so they are being faithful, remaining true....whereas what we should be doing is throwing out all the things we have accumulated over the centuries that have separated us from the simplicity of the Gospel, and rediscovering for ourselves all the unmistakeable Jewish elements. Can you explain why the Jews stumbled at Christ and nearly all of His teaching if His mindset was as theirs? His language was the same, but they were unable to grasp what He was teaching as it was so far from their understanding. Its just plain false that the christian church was subverted in the early centuries A.D, hence the stubborn resistance and clinging to what is proved to our minds by scripture and historic proofs. There has been cyclic rising and falling of sound doctrine and willing obedience, but this is has always been the case even in the OT. If just one person can provide a historical writing by the early church that supports what you say i will yeild to the evidence. If doctrine was being subverted, where are the outcries and refutations from the other side, or even pagan writings reporting the unrest and disputings? Paul said those that teach error were to be made note of and refuted. Botz i think you need to consider that you are the one coming in with a new way and claiming the preexisting is only accumulation of man without solid proof. Either way God bless. I think its been explained many times who accused the Messiah, who took Him to Pilate etc, and it wasn't the majority of the population, Messiah was taken by the groups who wanted to remain in power, they were more than a bit upset that He didn't come and make the romans leave so they could control the temple and the people along with it. There also was a huge secular and pagan population in Jerusalem who didn't care either way just cared how they could have and get what they want from the powers who were in charge. The vast majority of those believers were Jews, Paul, Peter, John, and the rest were of Israel. It was the priests, the scribes, those who knew scripture who knew it was the Messiah, they had been reading the prophets waiting for His arrival and they knew exactly when He would come that is how the apostles knew, the people who followed Him even down to the priests all over that knew He was Messiah who came from the tribe of Judah who will return to gather His own. JC so many have given you links, scriptures, and even in the words of those men you love to read that things were changed, if we cannot read the writings of the men, Polycarp! who walked with the apostles who knew the Messiah who kept the same days and feasts as the Messiah. If you cannot see those words of the men who walked with Him then nothing but the appearance of Messiah will help you see that yes things have changed dramatically since Yeshua walked this earth, since the apostles kept Passover, Sabbath and the rest of the days God set aside that we also see the first century people keeping also. There was outcries Polycarp went to Rome to try and straighten out things, even in Constantines own creed we read where he was still trying to get people to do things his way the way of the roman church still trying to refute those who were still keeping the ways of the 'Jews'. When Yeshua came He was seen as the Messiah by more than we can even see, He came not to start anything new, He didn't come to change His days, times, weeks, or anything else He came to show us how to live them righteously. When He was plucking the grain with the disciples He was not breaking any commandments but what the rabbis had written into God's commands. When there is a dispute its always on either the rabbis part or ours not Gods nor the Messiah. Paul was a pharisee, trained in Torah from his youth, Paul taught Torah, was a Torah observant all of his life and did refute those who taught against Torah. Ok now after saying all that let me be plain spoken, its not up to me nor anyone else to tell anyone what to do, how to do it, when etc. etc. God calls, the Spirit guides and teaches it is up to each one as individuals to accept and walk in Gods cycles/ways. When I write posts I am just sharing what I have been shown, I post to share and discuss not to put down, belittle or in any way harm anyone else. In this medium we are all aware that sometimes what we write doesn't always come off as we intend so please know that I am not trying to do any of that to anyone and if I ever feel like I am angry or wanting to 'show' someone I will leave a thread and not come back till I have taken my attitude to Him to straighten out, I don't always succeed in this and will apologize when I overstep myself, and I find it sad that I or anyone else needs to make some kind of disclaimer about posting. shalom, Mizz

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem. Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets. The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness. When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures. The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with. Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better. Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset? First off this is not directed at you or anyone person here but why does everything have to go into a Sabbath, commandment debate? All of the apostles were from Israel, were Jews, who had a hebrew mindset, who thought in hebrew wrote in hebrew but also by that time many of the 'Jews' especially the pharisee and saducees had much of the greek mindset, they were called hellenistic Jews. I think thats why so many see Paul's writings as hard to understand he also used some of that greek thinking trying to reach those greek thinking Jews. Most every single person thinks with a linear mindset and that is not how God put things out He uses cycles for everything, His days and nights, the turnings of the earth, moon, sun, His Feasts, His plantings of the fields there is no way else to see scriptures except from a cyclical hebraic mindset. If we just use the greek thinking we will miss sooo much and at least in my thinking that is where most all of the different denoms and debates come from, the lack of thinking in a hebraic mind. Today most all seminaries, colleges, schools, denoms, just about everything we read and study regarding the bible comes from the greek thinking model with few exceptions. When we put philosophy into scriptures we are putting greek thinking into them, its so ingrained into our minds we have a hard time seeing it. The entire NT is full of hebraic idioms and most find them hard to understand yet if we have the hebrew mindset we see them and can understand them. None of us unless we read, speak and live hebrew we all have some kind of greek type thinking it takes study, study, study, plenty of questioning and lots and lots of prayer to get to the 'hebrew mindset' no one wakes up one morning with full understanding of anything. And by my putting this up I was not accusing anyone of anything nor was it ever my intention nor do I believe anyone else here is accusing anyone of anything all I wished to do was give people something to read and study and to think about. shalom, Mizz

It is funny but then again its not, its like one class of 4 years old I had none had ever seen real rain and it just wasn't the 4's but some of the older kids commented they had never seen it rain more than a 'spit' before either. I remember the first time my kids saw the milky way, it was amazing to hear the amazment in their voices!

When God created the heavens and earth time was fixed in some ways to us God is time. We cannot have a garden without time or cycles, cycles for the growing of wheat, for all things there is a time frame. God tells us He declares the end from the beginning which means He shows us within the first few books of the bible that we can see the way things will play out in the end. The end time players were revealed in the beginning, the Messiah was revealed in the beginning of the scriptures also. Our time and Gods time is not the same but God always being true to His word shows us His work in our time so we in our simple minds can understand.

I often see people talking about the different mindsets, there is a huge difference in the two and how it applies to what we read in scriptures, at least I see it that way and many others as well. I thought these little 'lessons' might help some see the differences. I already asked a mod if posting this was ok and got the a'ok.

I didn't read the study pressed for time this morning but I read something the other day about how someone with beginning Alzheimers brains get a lot of benefit and a bit of improvement if one walks at least a half hour a day the catch is the benefits only show up after doing so for a year. Walking undoubtably is the best exercise for the whole body.

I had always seen this passage as a reference to G-ds precise timing for intervening in a more personal way with the human race...it was fore-ordained in the heart of G-d, it was referenced throughout Scripture directly and indirectly and Jesus stepped into and exited human history at the appointed time of the Fathers will...His coming was the culmination of everything prophesied about Him as Son, Messiah, Saviour, Priest and King....but troubled many Jewish leaders because they were the blind leading the blind, and could not fathom these events. When you consider the events and the characters involved, it is remarkable the attention to detail, and how just one thing misplaced or mistimed would have caused everything to crumple like a house of cards....but the word of G-d is true, and His ways are just and beyond comprehension. In Jesus comes the fulfilment of the Law...it has been implemental in guiding the nation of Israel to this present place in history, and it should have been the Law that proved who Jesus was, and led the Jewish people to Him....but many religious leaders had made an idol out of the Law and missed the spirit of the Law...preferring the praise of men and the sound of their own voices....and ultimately choosing to deliberately cling to the Law and reject Jesus...to be justified by works, and not by faith. Amen Botz they certainly did make an idol of the law! When Messiah showed them the fullness, freedom provided in Him apart from fences they surrounded themselves in, took away their power of the people. And to one degree or another some 'religious something' has been trying to do that ever since. I have often thought of the men the bereans who knew what, when and who to look for in the Messiah and then finally seeing those things come to pass, oh can you imagine!! And how perfect He is to show it all before hand, a perfect God can only do that! Oh just wanted to comment on that! shalom, Mizz

Josh thats pretty cool, did that come from the Aent?

Yep. But there might be more than one understanding of that truth. With issues like this, both can't be right; yet each believe that what they believe is the correct interpretation and firmly grounded in Scripture. Neither group will be moved from their position until the time has come and the Lord explains it to us. Do you believe that God will actually do what we read in Revelation, the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls? If so, when do you believe they will come about? They could happen in seven days. I kinda see the bowl judgments like those He put on Egypt and where we all kinda think they happened over a period of time they may have happened much closer together than we can imagine, all speculation of course but interesting stuff.

and I went I mean, if we Gentiles have no part in that covenant and therefore Sabbath-keeping is not for Gentiles - what about the rest of the 10 Commandments? Is it ok for Gentiles to steal and kill and lie and covet and commit adultery? Feeling a bit freaked out here... hi Sheya joie, all men are under moral obligation to rest one day out of seven, but the sabbath day the Jews keep is not mandatory to Christians who are free to choose a diferent day, and many of whom live on the other side of the world making it literally impossible to keep. Remember it is sundown to sundown or 6pm to 6 pm on the seventh day but that would not be the seventh day that God is watching on the other side of the world. Jesus points out that the Preists work on the sabbath, and so also Pastors today rest on another day other than the common day observed by the congregation. The 4th commandment is kept in spirit and truth by those who rest from their labours and join in fellowship one day out of every seven, that is why scripture says "let no man judge you concerning days" As for the other 9 they too are kept by Christians but not as part of the old covenant. I hope this helps So by your account its ok to pick and choose what you want to obey? What commandments do you suppose God means when He says this, If you love Me you will keep My commandments, or when He says those who entered into the Kingdom are the ones who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua? Where does God say I will make a covenant with Israel and they will be Mine and a covenant with gentiles that says 'go ahead and divide up and obey what you want' where is the covenant with gentiles? I would like a direct quote from scripture from Messiah Himself that says He came to make a covenant with the gentiles, a direct quote from scripture please. Do you think God is so small that He doesn't know people live all over the world that love Him and obey Him that He is so small that if we are not all in the same time zone that it negates His command to keep the Sabbath? The priets are doing Gods work, they are not working for gain, for anything other than God and He said it was ok for the priest to be in the temple on the Sabbath, theres even a verse that talks about it but off hand I have forgotten where its at. Would someone please show me a verse that God changed everything? Can someone show me in scripture where God said to choose what you want to obey of His words well we can choose to disobey but that is not what I am asking. I also would like to know where God said the commandments were given to Jews, and I understand that the word Jew is used in the NT but not when God gave the laws He gave them to His called children, His called out congregation, His church. And as a disclaimer I am not judging anyone at all just trying to understand where all these new revelations are I can't find them in any bible I have read although I can find plenty of stuff in mens writings. Just trying to understand why we are to follow 9 laws but not all 10, why God says He will make a covenant with Judah and Israel when He gathers them at His coming again and they will be with Him forevermore. If gentiles are not grafted into Israel then they are not His thats what scriptures says isn't it?

I have a bit of a different take on 'living under grace' when we look at the pictograph of hebrew or paleohebrew I see grace as a covering tent or as one person I know puts its like seeing a tent pitched over ones head no matter where they go that God covers us always. At the root of the word grace in hebrew are chen and nun and can be seen as protection of life, kinda like as we are called back to Him we are all living under His abode. It maybe be kinds simplistic but I like it. So I have no idea how anyone can have 'hyper' grace or anything of the sort. And as long was one is walking with God in His ways grace is always with you and there is no end or beginning.

Heres an interesting article on the sacrifices, sorry JC its a PDF hope you can open it.

G4521 σάββατον sabbaton sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week. In case you don't have a Strongs or anyother study aide here is your first day of the week in greek, the day means Sabbath, so it was the first of the Sabbaths, they were counting the omer to Shavout or Pentecost. So Acts 20:7 would read something like this, Now on the fist of the sabbaths when the disciples came together to break bread.... The Greek interlinear bibles also have first day of the week as first of the Sabbaths. The verses show that apostles were gathered together on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath and the day turns into the next day and that was the 'first' sabbath of counting down to Shavuot. Now JC can you please show me anything else that shows the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from the scriptures? Mizz, that word may be used as the seventh, or it can be the group of seven which would be "week" In the context of this verse it really is speaking of a seven day period of time. It is the first day of the (seven day period of time). Yes I know I wasn't debating the Sabbath per se but showing that it the day of Sabbath was not transfered to Sunday and somehow the Passover is now turned into something new not even ordained by Him since He is really clear He is at a Passover meal. How can this verse show this is the some new Lord's supper is what I am asking. Most remember that biblically the days start at twilight when the stars come out, night to night is how God ordained them not morning to morning and Acts 20 is showing that after the feast of Unleavened bread Paul was teaching on the Sabbath the next day comes and turns into the next day, how does this show a change in Passover? Most know that the Sabbath was changed by man and not God and I am not going to get into that discussion my emphasis is how can we see the Passover being changed into a brand new weekly communion? it doesn't we can read from those very ones who walked with the apostles that rome was changing things to fit their model and not the one Yeshua Himself followed. The same expression for 'breaking bread' can be found in many places, Acts 2, 27, 1 Cor. 11 for example. When Yeshua sat down with His disciples He Himself said how He wanted to have the Passover meal with them, the only reason people see something different is from John and if we read from history and such there were two sacrifices one for the Passover and one for the first day of Unleavened bread still on the same day as Passover so Yeshua could have been sacrificed as the second sacrifice of lambs were being done and still be the redeeming Passover lamb, we read in John that the priest would not go into Pilate because they would have become ritually unclean. I have searched and searched to see the biblical purification for those all who slaughtered their own lamb and have found none I certainly could be missing it. I do find that purification for the second. I cannot see a new weekly communion being given by Yeshua. Could He have been instituting something that went along with the Passover seder, perhaps but imo very doubtful but maybe if Polycarps writings were read by some then perhaps it will show forth that he being a disciple of John knew more than those who were living in Rome who did not know the apostles who knew the Messiah first hand and did as He did. But hey thats just me not telling anyone what to do or believe. Mizz

G4521 σάββατον sabbaton sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week. In case you don't have a Strongs or anyother study aide here is your first day of the week in greek, the day means Sabbath, so it was the first of the Sabbaths, they were counting the omer to Shavout or Pentecost. So Acts 20:7 would read something like this, Now on the fist of the sabbaths when the disciples came together to break bread.... The Greek interlinear bibles also have first day of the week as first of the Sabbaths. The verses show that apostles were gathered together on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath and the day turns into the next day and that was the 'first' sabbath of counting down to Shavuot. Now JC can you please show me anything else that shows the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from the scriptures?

JC, will you read this article with an open mind? The Messiah said it was the Passover He was eating. Can you with the scriptures only prove that Yeshua the Messiah changed His Day, the one He is Lord of to Sunday observance, the burden of proof is on you JC I can show that He did not. Now that doesn't mean Sunday worship is a sin at all, I don't believe it is but to call His Day other than what He Himself called the day well He might look upon it as good, you'll have to ask Him when you meet Him. Why is it christian, why the need to divide Gods children into groups? God calls His called out ones Israel, not secular land dwelling Israel but Israel who accepts Him, His commandments, and have the testimony of His Messiah. Do you honestly think there are only Jews and gentiles in this world or possibly that the Jews at the time of Messiah were all a bunch of mixed up tribes men and where we in historical writings there was also a huge group of dispersed people that Yeshua called the lost sheep of Israel who He came for and no one else, who Paul was sent out to bring back. What was the apostle asking Yeshua to restore to Israel? not to gentiles or Jews or Benjamites but to all the entire house of God's called out people and those who are grafted into the olive tree of Israel. I think that if you would stop seeing rabbinical Judaism and one group of people called the 'Jews' and see all who believe in God who keep His commandments and have the testimony of the Messiah as His Israel, His called out congregation/church thing might make a bit more sense. The new covenant we all cling to is not made with gentiles but with God's people Israel read it again for yourself then go to Jer. 31 and Due. 30 where we see this spoken of by Moses and the prophets. Do some digging the bible is a fascinating book, so much that no one in their life time could ever know whats hidden in plain sight! Mizz That 'real observances' bothers me I must admit, what real observances are you speaking about, the ones rome changed or the ones that our Messiah kept? where do we read in His words that when He dies and is resurrected that things were supposed to all change? How besides the confession of faith in Him set you apart in Him? remember atheist keep xmas, atheist give to charity and most are pretty decent people and often times most cannot tell the difference in actions of either group. How do you set yourself apart from the rest of the world? I prayerfully ask that you spend some time in the Tanakh or the OT start in Genesis and work your way through I bet you start seeing Him everywhere, start seeing much of the same language used by Yeshua and the apostles, and remember there must be a witness to whatever is said in the bible and that witness is in the OT.