wingnut-

I already explained this in my initial response. Those are the words of a bunch of unbelievers who are hiding in rocks and caves when they see the signs in the sky. I also posted the scriptures from Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the exact same events and places them AFTER the great tribulation, but of course you didn't bother to address it because it disproves your chronology. Not to mention you chose not to quote me, probably in the hopes I wouldn't see this attempted deflection. Written in concrete eh? If you continue to make things up, I am going to continue calling you out on it. I am going to post the opening of Revelation chapter 8, everything said prior to the trumpets, so it is clear to everyone there is nothing said about any book. Revelation 8 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. Where is your book? By the way, the kind of seals being discussed here are the kind of seals used to seal scrolls or parchments, not books.

Hey brother, Yes, from what you present here I think we are probably in agreement on this. The post of mine you quoted was merely an attempt to play devil's advocate with iamlamad regarding this chronology issue he is stuck on. I can't say for certain when the millennial reign begins, but my guess would be somewhere around the time Jesus arrives on the Mt. of Olives to when He enters Jerusalem for the second time. Armageddon and other events that follow are not part of the great tribulation period, once the day of the Lord begins we are officially out of that period. I would say he has to be considering Daniel's vision, but I do believe it is the very end of his time (concerning the AC and false prophet) after the war on the saints has finished and the two witnesses are dead. To me, this is what I see depicted in reference to the beast and the ten kings turning on the woman in Revelation 17. Something changes for them, and I see that occurring when the whole world sees the signs of His coming and allegiances begin to change. For example, regarding the Jewish people in particular, prophecy tells us that Jesus will come when they call for Him. Zechariah 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” Agreed, which I think has something to do with how it starts, or the size of it at that time based on the survivors. Isaiah 24:6 Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left. Agreed, the millennium will begin with fire and end with fire. I believe it is both one and the same. I am convinced the Rabbinical timeline is accurate, and the 7th day is the day of the Lord, and that sabbath rest coincides with a rest from the destroyer. The two "battles" that occur in this period, one at the beginning and one at the end, I don't see as being all that time consuming. The Lord will mow them down like grass. God bless

It isn't about a soul to me or the use of it in that instance, I think it is far better to focus on the spirit of a man, and exactly what it means to abide in Him, and Him abiding in you. While we are part of His body, what is truly being spoken of is a spiritual thing. We are one body, but we are uniquely independent even though joined by one Spirit. Independent enough that we receive new names that only He knows. Now, being part of that one Spirit, and one body, with Jesus as the head of that body, what you suggest is upon death of the flesh we cease to be for some unknown period of time. If that were true, we would no longer be part of that one Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not going to be buried, and furthermore, neither is part of His body. The flesh is just the earthly tent, as Paul explains, and when it expires he wrote that we are present with the Lord. There is no smoke and mirrors to talk around that, or all of the other evidence that often comes up. As I said previously, to me there is no doubt about this. Also, I wanted to add because I did not respond previously, but when I said I didn't care what you believe that was in regards to this particular discussion because it is not a salvational issue. If it were a salvational issue, then I would care very much. Just thought I should clarify that. I believe He recognized what they were already thinking, how to get rid of Him because they did not want to lose their power. What they are asking for is to see the sign of His coming in the sky if He was the Messiah, which He calls them out on not long after this in Jerusalem. Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet. Now Jesus responded by describing the conditions of the sky and how they recognized them, but they did not believe what He had to say despite all they had seen and heard to that point. Their kind had killed all the prophets sent before Him, and they would kill Him as well, so they only get the sign of Jonah. God bless

I think what you experienced is what we call the "glitch". For some reason if you are in the chat room for any length of time you get unexpectedly booted out of it. You may be able to see the conversation, but not able to post anything. If you refresh your screen or reload the page, it will start working again. If a moderator were to silence or kick you, you would see that message on your screen. God bless

Yes, the Jews count places us close to about 5800 years of time, however, there are two periods of history in which time was lost and not recorded, one of those periods was what we know as the dark ages. No one disputes that, whether it is the Jews or Gentiles, but what is not known for certain is how much time was lost. Everyone estimates about 100 years for each occurrence which places us right around the 6000 mark. We do not know how accurate that is or how many years are left to go with any degree of certainty. Sounds to me like something God worked out by His own hand. If the end times period is a 7 year period, then we know that there are at least 7+ years left. Surely you can't be serious? Are you going to sit here and tell me that you continue to argue chronology, accusing everyone who tries to point out that it is not of doing something underhanded with scripture. Then you are going to turn around and cherry pick 9 verses out of the middle of a text and move it to where you find it convenient? Unbelievable!!! Unbelievable!!! I think you owe quite a few of us an apology. All of us who have been pointing out that Revelation is not chronological have been explaining that for a long time, but your imaginary parentheses is utterly ridiculous. You should seriously be embarrassed after all the grief you give anyone else that realizes it is not chronological, I honestly can't even believe this attempt you are making to pluck out certain verses that only YOU approve of. No, you really don't agree with yourself, and you are making things up as you go along rather than humbling yourself to admit your stubbornness on chronology was misplaced. It is in the writings of the prophets iamlamad, have you bothered to read them? I'll give you a hint, there is nothing in there about a lease agreement, but there is an awful lot of information regarding the end times, and especially make sure you understand all the references to the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. By the way, I want to thank you for actually taking the time to answer my questions last time, it was extremely refreshing to see you actually engage in a conversation and address my post. God bless

Not with an iron scepter, He has not. Jesus did not approve of all the behavior of every pastor from then until now, certainly not what we have witnessed occurring in the last century or the present one to say the least. That's just in regards to pastors, much less what everyone else is up to. If Jesus was reigning would they be off having affairs? Would they be busy stealing money from the church coffers? When He reigns during the millennial period do you expect to see that type of behavior from His priests and kings? All authority was given to Him yes, but not everything is under His subjection yet, this is where you are veering off course on this. Everything must be subjected to Him first, and that does not happen until He comes and reigns with the iron scepter. I Corinthians 15: 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. When and then, two very important words to understand in that passage. Because that is the end of the tribulation, it ushers in the millennial kingdom. I have been pretty clear on that I thought, scripture certainly is. John does not say that the day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal, you are. What we see at the 6th seal is the reaction of a bunch of unbelievers to the signs in the sky, the very signs Jesus said would precede His coming in Matthew 24. Revelation 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” See how they are hiding from Him, all these people are afraid because they are not believers, why do you think their understanding is so accurate as to announce the day of the Lord? Now compare what is described above to what Jesus said, and I will highlight the similarities for you. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Look familiar to you? And perhaps the most notable thing for you to see there, is how the passage in Matthew begins. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, which days? What did Jesus tell you about prior to that? Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. So, when you see those signs in the sky, He is near. God bless

Ok, will keep you in my prayers through all of this brother. God bless

I would also say it should go to the daughter's son, provided that even should she marry the name of her son would remain intact. Also, with the exception that if the son who is about to be married has a son of his own, that it would be transferred to him.

Of course there are problems for you, that's why what you say above makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You are talking in circles, He has been reigning for 2000 years as you say, so why does His reign begin at the 7th trumpet if nothing has changed? Like I said above, no need for that to be said at the 7th trumpet if nothing has changed. I am not sure there is a time during the 70th week that He is on earth because what scripture seems to suggest is that once He sets down on the Mt. of Olives the day of the Lord has begun, not sure exactly when that switch occurs though. Maybe it happens when He re-enters Jerusalem in sync with His triumphal entry the first time. Let me ask you this, do you think Armageddon is during the 70th week, or after? I already posted you the scripture from John that says it does, and it also says that the two do align with each other. Revelation 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. So there you have it, what John wrote, any questions? You have yourself twisted into such a bundle of spaghetti in your eschatology, you don't appear to know what you believe, or you're just not willing to accept it yet. Give it some time, it goes down smooth, but let me give you an example of your own confusion. This is a direct quote from you, in response to sister, on your thread titled "What to make of the rest of the beasts and a season in time", posted on Oct. 15th, page 7, about halfway down. This is the link, but the comments are found below. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/242704-what-to-make-of-the-rest-of-the-beasts-and-a-season-and-a-time/?do=findComment&comment=3072318 They may well be blamed for each of the vials of God's wrath. It is my belief that these two will be Enoch and Elijah, the two men who never died. They are Old Testament saints, and will raise from the dead with ALL the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial that ends the week. So my friend, this is where that event shows up in Revelation. Revelation 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. Chapter 11, several verses before we read about the events of the 7th trumpet. Your own beliefs clash with each other because of this faulty clinging to a chronology that doesn't exist. At some point you are going to have to start reconciling your own theory against itself, because even you don't agree with yourself. Revelation 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. You really need to think about the above verse and what it means. The mystery of God is not about some lease agreement you dreamed up in your head, it was what God announced to His servants and the prophets. Maybe go back to the OT prophets and figure out what was announced to them, might be a good place to start. God bless

Agreed, now you just need to convince iamlamad of that. I was being sarcastic about it, I am aware it is not chronological, but thanks for your input. By the way, how are you doing? You haven't said anything more about your test results and I was just curious, praying for you brother, stay strong. God bless

And yet you quoted the very scriptures that state His reign begins once the 7th trumpet sounds. You can't undo scripture, you cannot have Him reigning but not reigning, and you certainly cannot produce a single passage of scripture to show Him reigning anywhere but from Jerusalem. Yet you continue to try and make it fit your imagination. 1000 years, that is what John wrote, you want to change that but can't accept the 7th trumpet is not chronological. Everyone knows that the 1000 years does not begin until satan is bound, but you didn't bother to address that issue.

Like I said, find one passage that doesn't have Him reigning from Jerusalem for the entire duration of this period, 1000 year reign it is called, not 996.5 year reign. Maybe it's a problem relating to what the Sabbath is? Consider what the rest is from, when satan is bound up? Revelation 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Find one passage regarding the millennial reign of Jesus not being from Jerusalem, we'll leave it at that.

It should be, yet it escapes you. Instead of just deciding you know everything, why don't you actually take something and consider it for a moment. Maybe ask God about it? If you pay attention, in verse 6 you see they already have the 7 plagues. In verse 7 they are given the vials, which are already full, so clearly they are not the same thing. You claim to consider things, you claim to take things to God, but the time from when this was posted to when you dismissed it was 1 hr. And that was just from when I posted it, it probably took you less than 5 minutes to disagree, you consider nothing.

Actually no, your end times theology just got even more confused and unbelievable. You need to rethink what you said here if that is your position. The two do not align with each other. God bless

Brother, I don't have to move it, that is where all of scripture places it, with His coming. You are just going to have to realize that it is not chronological, which is why I have been pointing the 7th trumpet out to you as the main argument for that fact for years. Jesus cannot be reigning from Jerusalem at the same time as the beast, think about it! Or better yet, ask the Lord about it. I'll tell you right now brother, this is exactly how it happened with me. The Lord opened my eyes to the truth in regards to something I asked Him about, and my entire eschatology view was changed. Don't believe me, don't take my word for it, but you should definitely inquire of Him about it. God bless

Brother, I have been trying to explain this to you for years. This cannot run concurrently with the iron scepter reign of Jesus, it is that simple. You are going to have to take what the Lord gave you and figure out how everything else fits around that fact. You could have saved yourself years of time by believing what someone else was trying to share with you though. Well, I have a rather simplistic view of this, which just so happens to agree with what you have learned to be true. God began by choosing the Jewish people to present Himself to the world. Within that group, He chose another specific group to be their spiritual leaders. The entire foundation of this 6000 year, young earth belief comes from them, and it is something they still adhere by today. You can certainly consult some Rabbinical teachings on the subject to see how they view the course of these years, and the different periods within them, but lets specifically focus on the current period they see us in, the Messianic period. They believe that the last 2000 years have been what they call the Messianic period, and this is the time when they expected the Messiah to come. Their rejection of Jesus leads them to believe that God has withheld the Messiah due to their iniquity, but we know better. The point is, they have been spot on in their understanding of how the world timeline goes. At the end of the 6000 years, we enter the day of the Lord, or another way of saying it, the Sabbath day. This is what we refer to as the millennial kingdom, and that will be followed at the conclusion of the millennium with the 8th day, which represents new beginnings. So, you may want to take some time and wipe the slate clean. Rebuild on the foundation of this knowledge and see where it takes you. God bless

That's what I am thinking. We are told nothing more about them, other than that they are last. I believe so, but still have no clear answer to that. To me, it would appear these 7 plagues must come at some time following the 7th trumpet since they are last. I think we see things in a similar fashion, so it does appear to fit. Let me know if you come up with anything else. God bless

Let's play a little game here called, iamlamad's insistence on chronology. So why can the millennium not begin at the 7th trumpet iamlamad? Easy, because two chapters later you have this beast that enters the picture, and he is ruling for 3 1/2 years. The millennial reign is Christ's reign, with an iron scepter no less. God bless

You're not alone, I have been trying to explain this for years now. I am not sure that I would say it is 3 dimensional, but certainly not chronological. In regards to the seven thunders, here is a mystery unto itself that most never touch on or seem to acknowledge, from Revelation 15. Revelation 15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished. 7 angels with 7 plagues, which are the last. Now, everyone stops there and just misses what follows, assuming these 7 plagues are the bowls/vials of wrath, but they are not. Go further down in the chapter and you get this. Revelation 15: 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests. Again, 7 angels with 7 plagues, and what immediately follows... Revelation 15: 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, Now they are given the 7 bowls/vials. We get nothing more about the plagues that they already had. Just something to consider. God bless

Of course, the third woe, not something to forget. From what I've read from you on the subject I am pretty sure we are in agreement in regards to the general timing of it. Not exactly sure how you see it impacting the first woe, but we can always visit that at another time. I am interested in hearing what you have to say in regards to what you see occurring at the first seal, so I'll be watching for a thread on it. There are a few things I would love to discuss with you on the matter, but I don't want to take diaste's thread off topic on him. God bless

The fifth trumpet is the first of the three woes, which appears to align with satan's permanent removal from heaven and the beginning of the 3 1/2 year period of the beasts war on the saints, at least from my perspective. God bless

Because the abyss requires a key to be opened, and nothing is said about it at the first seal. I agree. There is nothing to indicate that in the passage, it specifically states that the judgement is on anyone without the seal of God on their foreheads. Revelation 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. I agree with you on the assumption that satan is the destroyer, but with that understanding comes the knowledge he is in charge over all of these beasts that are bent on destruction. God bless

Interesting, but I have to ask why this would be excluded from the information given, particularly when we see the abyss having to be opened at the fifth trumpet, and a king arises? Revelation 9 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Revelation 9:11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

I think one thing you have to keep in mind in a setting like this, is that English is not everyone's first language. So there will always be issues with translation as far as grammar and spelling.