wingnut-

Even better.

How about realists?

Of course God is aware of all things, and scripture was written for all of mankind. The mystery however is not in regards to His children, it is a mystery to the wicked because they do not understand scripture. God doesn't hide things from His children, which is why we are told to study and show ourselves approved. The symbolism used in Revelation was to ensure the book left the Isle of Patmos, its meaning hidden from the eyes of John's captors, but revealed to those who know His word, through His word. I Thessalonians 5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. The answers are found in scripture, not through visions and private revelations. This is why we are instructed to test all things against scripture, it is our guide to truth. God bless

I'm only aware of two in regards to this topic, what Daniel was told to seal up, and what John was told to seal up in regards to what the seven thunders said. The rest of the answers are found in scripture. He didn't say how long I agree, but He did say that everyone would see Him coming, not that everyone would seem Him appear. Coming means in the act, appearing would just be an arrival. Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The sign comes first, that is in regards to the sun, moon, and stars as described in the previous verse. Then the inhabitants of the earth mourn when all the lights go out, and see Him coming with power and great glory. They'll see Him because He will be the only light as he approaches, and suddenly appearing doesn't really display power and great glory does it? It may not seem like much, but I think it's an important distinction. I'm not sure where you get this from, scripture doesn't tell of hundreds, but a few. The verse from I Thessalonians says we meet the Lord in the air, it says nothing about going beyond the clouds. So let me point out to you something very important from John 14 that you seem to be overlooking. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Where is He coming to again? The earth. We meet Him on His way and since we will forever be with Him, we are coming right back down. Only the deceased and the angels will follow Him out of heaven. Agreed, it is the false theology the church in the western nations have been spreading for the last several hundred years. I believed it for the majority of my life as well for that very reason, because it was all I heard and I never bothered to dig deeper for myself and just accepted someone else's version. Once I prayed and asked the Lord for understanding things have become perfectly clear. No more jumping through hoops, it is fairly simple. I pray my brothers and sisters would do the same so they are prepared for what is coming. God bless

I agree that the responsibility is to rightly divide scripture, and I don't see you doing that. There is no such separation in scripture, we are all one in Christ. The only distinction John the Baptist is making in this passage is in regards to himself and the Son of God. This conversation occurs as a result of a dispute between John's followers and other Jews and their reaction to Jesus and His message. John 3:25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!” Like most people at that time they weren't grasping who Jesus was. John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ John points his disciples to the truth of who Jesus is, and who he is himself. John 3:29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. Here John is saying that Jesus is the bridegroom, and John is the friend of the bridegroom. The friend hears Him, and rejoices greatly, which is why John's joy is fulfilled. John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. Jesus must increase, and John must decrease. Jesus is above all, John is earthly. John 3:32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. John explaining that Jesus was sent from God, and that people need to receive His testimony. John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John confirming that Jesus is the Son of God, the promised Messiah. The only distinction made here is that whoever believes in Jesus has everlasting life, and whoever rejects Him will receive wrath. There is only one seed, one body, and one way to salvation, Jesus Christ. God bless

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Neither word appears in that verse, you really shouldn't bear false witness. You should also keep this verse in mind. Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; I'm afraid the gimmick is in your theory, for example, a 7 year hour day. And let's not forget that according to you first means third, or fourth, or whatever number it is you settle on. What you are trying to sell no one should buy.

I didn't say they are not prophetic, I simply pointed out that these 7 churches were real churches, and they are in Asia as John clearly states. They have nothing to do with the USA, John did not write the letters to a country that didn't exist. His letters were originally delivered from the Isle of Patmos to those 7 churches in Asia. The Philadelphia church was there, and has nothing to do with the Philadelphia in Pennsylvania because it did not exist yet. I would suggest looking at a map and seeing where the Isle of Patmos is in relation to present day Turkey, and not deviating from what scripture actually says in an effort to include a place that did not exist at that time.

The word rapture doesn't appear in scripture anywhere. It comes from the latin translation and the word rapturo, which is the translation to latin from the greek word harpazo. Harpazo means catching away/ gathering, and that is found in numerous places in scripture, always in conjunction with His coming. Paul refers to the last trump. John wrote the only detailed account of the end times in Revelation, he mentions 7 trumpets, the 7th being the last one. It does not say anything about being caught up in that passage. The chronological timeline was given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24, which again places the gathering at His coming. From there it is simply a matter of following the signs and symbols He gave us in scripture. Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. For the record, I am not of post-trib view, closer to what is called pre-wrath by others. He will never take His Spirit from us, and His elect are the temple. The Holy Spirit is God as well, and will not cease to exist at any time. Never. See above answer. Evidence of this can be found in Joel's prophecy, where we are told that not only will the Holy Spirit be present in the last days, but God will pour out His spirit on people. Jesus came to bridge the great divide between God and man, to make a way for man to be reconciled to God, salvation for the sinner. God will never remove His spirit, under any circumstance, not even following the gathering/ catching away. Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. The Holy Spirit is not just for the believer, but the non-believer as well. The heart of God is that He loves all, and desires all to come to Him. The Holy Spirit speaks to all flesh, but all flesh does not answer the call. The Holy Spirit dwells within those who believe, but has and will continue to speak to everyone. God gave satan dominion over this earth, his authority expires when the number of Gentiles comes in, this happens during the great tribulation according to scripture. Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. The enemy will continue to rule here until Jesus returns and puts everything under His feet. Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. God bless you too.

Sorry, neither the word tribulation or saint appears in that verse.

No, an English major and a writer would say this. How about making this really simple, show me one passage that speaks of the gathering/ catching away that does not reference His coming back to earth.

Does scripture state that somewhere? Scripture that says this please? Scripture that speaks about these two events and purposes please?

I do know this, I was asking you who they are in your opinion. Jesus walked this earth during the last days of the first age, following His resurrection the church age began. That means anyone who died prior to His resurrection qualifies for being the "many" whose graves were opened. Your response suggested that you believe they were from the same time He was alive because your source said they returned to their families. His own disciples, who were closer to Him than anyone did not understand what had happened until He returned to them, Thomas wasn't convinced until he touched the holes in His hands. So what your source suggested is highly unlikely. The more likely understanding is that these saints were from the Old Testament. I would also offer the reminder of what Jesus said to the thief beside Him on the cross, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43. This whole soul sleep premise is the one with issues concerning scripture. I read them in the bible, if you have scripture to support otherwise of course I am receptive. 9 years ago when I first joined worthy forums I believed in pre-trib, and for two years I argued that position on these boards. The Lord changed my understanding of that with scripture, so if I am wrong on this the same would apply. However it will require scripture, I don't follow the theology of men, as I have discovered way too many errors in regards to it. What you posted isn't in line with scripture at all, it actually is taking all sorts of liberties with it. Nowhere in the scripture does it say these saints were from His time, it doesn't say that they returned to their families, nor does it say they lived out regular lives and died again. That is the definition of taking liberties with scripture, adding things to it that simply aren't there or supported anywhere else. If you don't agree with it, why post it? Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Where in that passage does it say any of those things your source claims? You chose to correct me with this source and claimed it was more reliable and in line with scripture, but I am not seeing that here. There are only two mass resurrections in scripture, this one here and the one at the end of the church age. Now why would Jesus say He was telling the truth to the thief on the cross about being with Him in paradise that day if it were not so? The only school I subscribe to is scripture, and no, I am not going to come out of that. If you have some scripture to offer I am more than happy to digest it. It's amazing to me that you would post something that so blatantly takes liberties with what is written and still continue to claim that I am the one who needs to change my thinking. God bless

Agreed, and that time is at the very end. There is no favoritism amongst His own people, the apostles faced death from the beginning of this age, and that will continue until the last day at His coming.

What exactly makes it more improbable than the source you claim as a more likely scenario? Nowhere in scripture does it say they continued their lives from before and then died again. Scripture doesn't say they went back to their families either, it says they appeared to many. What scripture does say, it is appointed once for man to die. So in fact, your supported scenario is far less likely and takes far more liberties with what is written. Scripture says they were saints, what other saints existed prior to His death? Scripture also talks about 24 elders in heaven, if they were angels it would say angels, so who else would that be? There were two ages to this world, and all indications according to scripture is that there was a resurrection at the end of the first age, and one coming at the end of this age. God bless

No, no problem with it at all. It says graves (plural), and it says they (plural), so who would that be if not the Old Testament saints. I would consider Moses as being among them, which is why I asked the question. I am sticking with what is written, this is from scripture. God bless

The first thing in regards to this, is that symbols don't change. God doesn't tell us what a symbol means and then later change that meaning. We know from Revelation 12 that the woman represents Israel, but it is important to keep in mind that there are two groups regarding Israel in the end times. Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,” Says the Lord, “That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one–third shall be left in it: Revelation 12 addresses the 1/3, Revelation 17 addresses the 2/3. The woman in Revelation 17 is riding the beast, not fleeing from the beast as the woman in Revelation 12 is. So here is evidence that supports this woman is Israel, and deals with her riding the beast as well. Revelation 17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” The first thing to address is that the woman is a harlot, this is the very thing God has spoken in regards to Israel repeatedly in prophecy. The best example is found in the book of Hosea. The first three chapters are a summary of Hosea's personal life, in which God instructs him to marry a harlot as a metaphor for His relationship with Israel. Chapters 4-14 breaks things down in more detail, below is an example that points directly to this truth including the wine reference. Hosea 4:11 “Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart. 12 My people ask counsel from their wooden idols, And their staff informs them. For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray, And they have played the harlot against their God. The explanation regarding the waters the harlot sits on are given later in the same chapter of Revelation. Revelation 17:15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues." I'll come back to this later on but wanted to display it here since it appears in the first segment, and the importance of the reference is in regards to the beast and his kingdom. Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Not all of Israel is in Judea, so we see the reference to the wilderness above, and Hosea touches on the fact that even some of those who are representative of the 2/3 are not in cities. You also see in this verse the reference to the beast being scarlet, and also it touches on what occurs in Jerusalem which we know as the 'abomination of desolation'. We'll come back to this again. Hosea 4:13 They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops, And burn incense on the hills, Under oaks, poplars, and terebinths, Because their shade is good. Therefore your daughters commit harlotry, And your brides commit adultery. Hosea touches on the fact that the Jews are spread out within the land, and also that some travel outside the land. The point being, the group that is protected in the wilderness are separate from the 2/3 that will be cut off and die. To be cut off and die is of course clarified by Jesus in the gospel of John regarding the vine and the branches. Revelation 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. The woman's attire directs us back to the priestly attire that Aaron and the levites were instructed to wear in Exodus 28. It is not a perfect match because the blue and gold are not mentioned, but the overall similarities are no coincidence given all of this information. Right down to the precious metals, stones, and pearls. Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This is another direct link to Exodus 28, regarding what Aaron was instructed to wear on his forehead. Exodus 28:36 “You shall also make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet: HOLINESS TO THE LORD. 37 And you shall put it on a blue cord, that it may be on the turban; it shall be on the front of the turban. 38 So it shall be on Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children of Israel hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord." So consider what is written on her forehead exactly. For now I'll specifically address the final segment and how it links these things. First, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS part, and also this segment from Hosea touches on the priestly garments. Hosea 4:5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day; The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night; And I will destroy your mother. 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. The mother reference is in regards to Jerusalem itself, which ties into the second part of what is written on her forehead, THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The 'abomination of desolation' takes place in Jerusalem, in the temple, where the beast will declare himself to be god. The 3 1/2 year period we know as the great tribulation begins around this very event, and this is when wickedness will truly rule the earth. The beast will set up shop from there, demand to be worshiped by all from there, and even erect his own idols to be worshiped from there. Going back to verse 4 there is one more important detail, the cup. Revelation 17: 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. We find that tied in through Zechariah as more evidence as to who the harlot is, and linking the cup to Jerusalem. Zechariah 12: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. The main charges God brings against Israel have always centered around idolatry, turning to other gods, and turning to other nations for help when they should have been turning to Him. The enemy revolted against God because he wanted to be god, and everything he has done in the interim is an attempt to copy God, which continues to the end. The enemy forms his own unholy trinity, satan as the father, antichrist as the son, false prophet as the spirit. Those are my conclusions regarding the woman and her identity, I will continue regarding the beast and the whole picture regarding Mystery Babylon later on. Time for work soon, so maybe later tonight. God bless

There is no such term in scripture as tribulation saints, that is a man made doctrine that adds something to the book of Revelation which is not there, or anywhere else for that matter. What about what Peter wrote regarding the elect? If all of Israel is to be saved, then how do you explain the omission of the tribe of Dan in Revelation? What about Judas, he was a Jew, saved or not? Being grafted in is a permanent thing, so one must ask themselves how we are grafted in, what does the scripture teach about obtaining salvation? God bless

I disagree. The true definition of the elect is found in one simple question. How does one obtain salvation? We are either grafted in or we are not, this attempt at separation flies in the face of what the gospel message teaches. God bless

I can't answer because that isn't my post, I didn't say that. I think you meant to quote someone else but quoted them from my post, which attributes their comments to me. You will have to go back to their original post to quote them. God bless

The entire chapter 15 is speaking in regards to the change as well as when it happens, and it is to the spiritual body at His coming. I disagree with your conclusions on the basis of what scripture actually says. Scripture says otherwise, specifically in regards to the 7 churches John said this. Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Asia is not the USA, these churches were in an area referred to as Asia Minor which at that time included the nation we know as Turkey. The USA is not mentioned in scripture because it didn't exist when scripture was written. These were actual churches where the gospel had been preached. God bless

The article says they treat them with their own cells, so that eliminates the possibility.

Who do you think was resurrected in the following passage? Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. God bless

Hey inchrist, I think the main hang up you have with the passage from II Corinthians 5 is in regards to nakedness, so I wanted to share with you my understanding from scripture as to what being naked means. First, it has nothing to do with the physical, we are taught this back in Genesis regarding Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden of Eden, and they were naked, and not ashamed. They became ashamed after they sinned. Genesis 3:8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” It was only after they sinned that they were ashamed. Believers are covered by the Blood of Jesus, and cannot be ashamed, which is what I am referring to in regards to everything changing after His sacrifice. Paul said this regarding nakedness as well. Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? He is talking to believers, so when he speaks of nakedness he is talking about the physical. Spiritually a believer cannot be naked, a believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Not having the Holy Spirit is what makes one naked spiritually, it has nothing to do with the physical. God looks at what is inside a person, not what is on the outside. The garments we need to concern ourselves with is our spiritual armor. Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Anyway, just wanted to explain how I come to my understanding. God bless

OneLight gave you all of the scriptural references in his post, if you had read them you would know the answer. No point in me posting it again since you aren't really interested. Come 9/24 you might be, so you know where to find it. No, I agree that is when we receive our glorified bodies. I disagree with you regarding what happens when a person dies.

As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.