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When I first was born-again and received knowledge that I was a son of God and that I was ALWAYS a son of God I used to believe just as the majority of those in Christendom that the kingdom of God was an actual kingdom with a king, (with a realm or location, with subjects, a royal court, a castle or mansion, etc.), all the fixings of what we all commonly know in this earth as a kingdom. But I was wrong. We were wrong. Christendom was wrong and still is. Matthew 12:28 (KJV) 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Luke 11:20 (KJV) 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. Question: What is Jesus Christ doing? Answer: Jesus Christ is casting out 'devils.' Jesus Christ is, in effect, saying that He is the kingdom of God. A kingdom OF GOD that has come 'unto you.' This 'kingdom' is not the same as the kingdom of heaven. This kingdom (of heaven) does have a king, a realm, a court, subject, etc. Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The apostle Paul adds to this truth when he says: Romans 14:17 (KJV) 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. The kingdom of God is Christ. Christ is within 'you.' Christ is righteousness, peace, and joy... all the deific attributes of Christ Himself. And flesh has inherited Christ as Promised by God to His people Israel, and spiritual Israel. And this is our inheritance as named souls that were contemplated by God in Trinity in His Mind BEFORE He created heaven earth and man. His Elect people were written in a 'book' of life of the lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8). 1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. The unsaved cannot inherit the kingdom of God who is Christ: John 14:17 (KJV) 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The unsaved who are not named in the book of life of the lamb slain... a.k.a., the world, CANNOT RECEIVE Christ. No way, no how. So, there are two groups of people on the planet, always has been: those in Covenant with God, and those not in Covenant with God. Righteousness = The Father Peace = the Son, the Prince of Peace Joy = the Holy Spirit. Go figure.

Well, since I made a list once about some things the Bible does not say about the End Times, maybe I should list some thing that it does say. Now, I am expecting, that no one will argue that these things are not in the Bible, but I do not reasonably expect that there will not be people, who will want to comment on how these things do not mean what they appear to mean. I expect some comments from the Bible + crowd. The numbers are there to make it easier to reference things said, for any who find quoting difficult to do. So, in no particular order, and some possible redundancy: 1. There will be a time of trouble whcih Jesus called birth pangs √ 2. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation. √ 3. There will be a specific sign to warn of it's nearness. √ 4. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited it length to preserve life. √ 5. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky. √ 6. He then will send angels to gather His elect. √ 7. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return √ 8. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers √ 9. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. √ 10. There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. √ 11. The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise first, then the living Christians join them in the air. √ 12. Believers are to look for a man of lawlessness to be revealed, and by that will know that the 2nd coming of Jesus, has become imminent. √ 13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. √ 14. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection √ Taken from http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html

Nice to meet you again rollingthunder, and thank you for your thoughtfull and educational reply to my post. Yes, no problem with the above, we meet him in the air: 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Notice that in the passage above, it says that God will bring with Jesus, those who have died. That sounds downward to me, but I could be wrong. Bring is toward us, take is away from us. The point is, we are going up to be with Him. Passage also mentions angels and trump, so I think we are on the same page there. However, the passage states He comes down, and we go up, and does not say whether we come down with Him, or we go up with Him after we meet in the air. I basically disagree with you about the two different types of coming. I find the one where Jesus comes again, after the tribulation, where He gathers the elects, from the earth, the living and the dead saints, and brings us to earth with Him, but I cannot find the other one. The only distinctions I notice in comings, are the words used, primarily parousia (coming alongside, coming to be present) and ercomai, (I come, I go). Context though as always, will generally tell you what is meant, but the Greek can shed light as well. Again, it does not state in that verse, what direction we go from that meeting, up or down. I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it looks to me like you are saying that in that verse (Mark 13:37) that that is not Jesus second coming to the earth. I must be misunderstanding you because immediately before the verse you quoted we see exactly what this is describing: 24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. (the upper case letters above are from the NASB, not my doing) The fact that verse 27 begins with "and" connects it to the verse before it, so it is saying "After the tribulation, things happen and Jesus comes in power and glory and gathers His elect. 100% consistant with what I am saying and what I believe. I do not disagree with you, as far as I can tell all verses and passages about Jesus coming are at His revelation or His appearing. I don't think that is the case. There are more that one sort of judgement. God can judge the earth and inflict his wrath upon it, just as the flood was a judgement, and Sodom and Gommorah were judgements. Those judgements are against a people and are not the judgement that is eternal. I am sure I do not have to convince you of that, it is for the benefit of those who might be reading this thread, who are not as well studied as you are. To that end I offer the following passage. Matt 11:23,24: 23"And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24"Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you." This demonstrates that there is yet a judgement to come upon Sodom. I beleive this will also be the case when the Lord come in Judgment. So no, I do not beleive beleive I have my judgements confused, I am noting the distinction of punishment on earth and punishment in eternity. That is not quite fair, I am not importing anything, I am using the parable of the wheat and tares to demonstrate that there is a type of person, who can appear outwardly like a beleiver, but is in fact, counterfiet. Nothing more need be implied than that. If it has no relation to the ten virgins, why does it start out saying "The kingdom of heaven is like . . ."? and in the parable of the tares and the parable of the virgins, the result is the same, weeping and gnashing of teeth for some, I think you are trying to hard to make distinctions that need not be made. A parable is only a parable after all, not everything in it has a one to one correlation with comething else. Being how parables are at times designed to obscure meaning, I prefer ones that the bible interprets, without me bringing too much into it myself. If you show me where what you are saying about them, are in the explanations Jesus gave, I am all ears, I apologize, if I am not quite as open to what you think it means. Again, as in many replies so far, my point is being glossed over and other details are being imported that I am not even talking about, except to answer off topic (to me) replies. Restating my point yet again: "So, the answer to our question of "when?" is: When the master comes and assigns the lazy slave to the place where the hypocrites are and there is wailing and knashing of teeth, THEN it will be comparable to ten virgins. In Matt 24, the topic is clearly not the rapture, but Jesus second coming, His glorious appearing after the tribulation. Also, we see this "wailing and gnashing of teeth language from Jesus, elsewhere in the book of Matthew, chapter 13 Well, it makes sense to me, and I do not feel that you have even remotely made a case for how it does not. Making sense, is not even what concerns me, I know my ways are not God's ways, so it certainly need not make sense to me to be true. I am not interested in what makes sense as much as I am interested in what the bible actually says. Whether or not it makes sense to us, it harmonizes with all passages (not all interpretations of all passages), does not need to infer anything that is not stated, or at least does not contradict anything that is stated, that is to say it is not contradicted by scripture, and is the plainest understanding of the related passages. I am not quite sure I even understand what your overall view is rollingthunder, so I am not sure how much we agree or disagree on other details of end times. It at least seems to me that you have Jesus coming back twice (as in the pretrib scenario), but I always marvel that no one has been able to produce a single verse that states any such notion, it is all infered in their view, but that inference is imported to the text, not extraced from it. Similar to another tenent of pretribism, which I also fail to understand, the notion of imminence, but that is another topic for another thread, and has likely already be discussed to death. Thank you for your wonderful tone and teaching spirit.