Inspired or Not?

[Old Timer]

Three proofs of inspiration:

1. Fulfilled prophesy.

2. The Jewish people

3. About 40 authors over 1500 years speak to the same theme with little or no contradiction.

What other

[GoodSamaritan]

It's not circular logic because it was inerrant before it's inerrancy was questioned.

Is a person to take you at your word? An assertion is not a logical argument, it's merely skipping steps that you still need to put in place. Can you tell me from Scripture when it became inerrant? Can you distinguish this claim of inerrancy from the claims of the Koran or Book of Mormon? I'm not saying prove it to an atheist as this would require Jesus to knock on his/her door, perform a miracle or six, and then hand him/her an autographed copy of the Bible with this inscribed on the inside cover:

'This Book is inerrant and inspired'

Sincerely,

God

All i'm asking is for someone to make a semi-logical argument, not one that assumes it as a foregone conclusion. (For the record, i consider it inerrant and inspired but not because it says so.)

Edited June 22, 2004 by GoodSamaritan

[Steff]

Then how are there inconsistencies between different version of the bible. Have you ever read the bible in another language? It's interesting to see what translates properly across language barriers and what doesn't. If the bible is 100% inerrant, which bible version is the inerrant one? What happens when the original meaning does not translate across the language barrier? What about many of the original texts being oral tradition before it was written down?

It's not circular logic because it was inerrant before it's inerrancy was questioned. Therefore the atheist's claim is circular. It's based on a false premise of being fallible and must be proven inerrant when in fact it is inerrant and needs no proof of such.

I dare you to write computer code to that effect, I guarantee it won't run. I will agree you can claim that the bible is inerrant but you cannot use scripture to prove it's inerrancy, and it doesn't make the claim a valid one unless you can support it logically.

[GoodSamaritan]

Three proofs of inspiration:

1. Fulfilled prophesy.

2. The Jewish people

3. About 40 authors over 1500 years speak to the same theme with little or no contradiction.

What other

[BobTriez]

All i'm asking is for someone to make a semi-logical argument, not one that assumes it as a foregone conclusion. (For the record, i consider it inerrant and inspired but not because it says so.)

Yet you are assuming a foregone conclusion that it's fallible. What's the difference ? But, since you ask for proof, let me get back with you. I have some staggering statistics that will blow you away ( odds of all the prophesies being fulfilled ). Give me 'till tomorrow, but they prove without a doubt that the Bible is true ( unless you simply refuse to believe; then there's nothing that can be said to prove it to you ). Check back tomorrow....I promise I will get back...ok ?

In Him,

Bob

[GoodSamaritan]

Yet you are assuming a foregone conclusion that it's fallible.

What would make you consider only one book infallible? What is it that separates it from I'm OK, You're OK? If someone put the Koran in your hands and you had no idea what it was would you automatically assume it's infallible? if so, why?

As i said, i DO believe. I'm just interested in seeing the reasons people give for belief in the inerrancy of the Bible and whether those arguments are logical or whether they're based on culture and human tradition. I look forward to your info on the prophecies. Exactly how many prophecies must be fulfilled for it to be considered inspired? And whose standard do you use?

God Bless

GS

[BobTriez]

Exactly how many prophecies must be fulfilled for it to be considered inspired?

ALL of them ( Deuteronomy 18:21 ). I'll try to get that posted tonight, but I can't promise anything...tomorrow for sure though

In HIM,

Bob

[BobTriez]

Well, I didn't think I could find this so fast & thought I'd have to research it again....but, I found it. Have a read as it's pretty interesting ( not to mention amazing ).

It is historical fact that the book of Isaiah was written somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 years before Christ. In the book of Isaiah, there are 17 prophecies regarding the Messiah. What this means, is Isaiah said 17 explicit things about Jesus. Every one of them came true.

What follows is from the book "Signature of God". It will put what this means in perspective.

What are the chances that all seventeen of these predictions occurred by chance rather than by the divine plan of God? Either these seventeen predictions are simply the result of chance or this evidence provides overwhelming proof that God inspired the Bible and is in control of history.

The combined probability AGAINST these 17 predictions occurring is equal to 1 chance in 480,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1 chance in 480 Billion 1 Billion x 1 Trillion In other words, there is only one chance in 480 billion x I Billion x 1 Trillion that these Old Testament prophets could have accurately predicted these seventeen specific prophecies about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ by chance alone.

The odds are equally impossible that any man could have fulfilled these detailed prophecies by chance alone. Let any reader assign any other estimates they might choose for these probabilities that these predictions occurred. Regardless of the size of the estimates for probability you assign to these individual predictions, you will still be confronted with a combined probability so staggering in its magnitude that it will be impossible to honestly convince yourself that these things occurred by chance. In the unlikely event that you still are not convinced, consider the fact that we have examined only seventeen of the forty-eight major prophecies given in the Old Testament about the promised Messiah. If we were to calculate the odds against all forty-eight predictions occurring by chance we would arrive at a number so large that it would exceed our capacity to comprehend it.

These Prophecies Prove the Bible Is Inspired By God. When we consider these seventeen specific Messianic prophecies, the odds against any one person fulfilling these predictions by chance alone are absolutely astronomical. To fully grasp the reality that these fulfilled prophecies prove that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah and Son of God, consider the following illustration: First, the odds against the prophets correctly guessing all seventeen prophecies are: 1 chance in 480 Billion x 1 Billion x 1 Trillion!

Next, to fully grasp these incredible odds we must try to get a picture of these odds in our minds. Imagine that every one of these chances was represented by a small grain of sand. Furthermore, imagine that a single grain of sand is painted gold and represents the one chance out of this astronomical number that Christ fulfilled these predictions by chance. We are going to blindfold you and ask you to search for the single gold-painted grain of sand. Imagine that the entire galaxy known as the Milky Way, encompassing two hundred million stars like our sun plus millions of planets, moons, and asteroids is composed only of these 480 Billion x 1 Billion x 1 Trillion grains of sand. In a galaxy filled with this incredible number of grains of sand, your target is the only grain of sand that is painted gold. Remember the galaxy is so vast that if you could travel in the Star Trek Enterprise at the speed of light, 187,000 miles per second, it would still take you a hundred thousand years to cross the galaxy. If we were to blindfold you and send you blindly searching through our entire galaxy to find a single gold-painted grain of sand, you would face the same impossible odds in finding the gold grain of sand as the odds against these seventeen prophecies occurring by chance alone.

Of course, the atheist will attempt to debunk this as does every claim the Bible makes. That's their choice. I'm not particularly interested in trying to prove something that God proved was true already ( not much point really; I mean since God proves He exists, what more could I do or say to add to it ? ).

Have a great evening! Blessings to you.

In HIM,

Bob

[Bread_of_Life]

BobTriez seems to change his argument here. At first, he argues that we should make the a priori assumption that the bible is inerrant:

It's not circular logic because it was inerrant before it's inerrancy was questioned. Therefore the atheist's claim is circular. It's based on a false premise of being fallible and must be proven inerrant when in fact it is inerrant and needs no proof of such.

However, he provides no reason for such an a priori assumption. This therefore collapses to the "i want to believe it so I'll assume it as true" argument.

Then, he changes his mind - the bible now requires proof, and he gives it in the form of fulfilled prophecy:

It is historical fact that the book of Isaiah was written somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 years before Christ. In the book of Isaiah, there are 17 prophecies regarding the Messiah. What this means, is Isaiah said 17 explicit things about Jesus. Every one of them came true.

So which is it - does biblical inerrancy require proof or not? Furthermore, can fulfilled prophecy even be used as evidence of biblical inerrancy? Whilst it maybe proof that Jesus was the messiah prophecised in Isaiah (although clearly I would dispute even that) - it cannot surely prove that the whole bible is inerrant and true.

[Old Timer]

GoodSamaritan, I gave you three reasons that I believe are all valid for claiming Biblical inspiration. I don