Dad Ernie Posted March 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Greetings Blindseeker, First, it was not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that brought death to Adam, it was his disobedience and sin. What brought about the ultimate death of Adam and Eve? It was not having access to the Tree of Life. His disobedience and sin facilitated his death. This is clearly revealed in Gen 3:22. Would you answer the question - Would Adam and Eve go perhaps 70 years, or at least many years without eating of the Tree of Life? Especially since God made an issue of it. What would you do in Adam's situation? Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Greetings Ovedya, I have heard this response before - typical OSAS. No offense, but you probably do not believe that a person could have their name blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life as well. Yet elsewhere I have shown several verses which indicate that God does do that. It is not reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve DID NOT eat of the Tree of Life during their many years in the Garden. But that is what you are doing. There is nothing said, even in the curse that would indicate they NEVER ate of that tree. OSAS basically says that once you confess Christ as Lord and Savior, you will ALWAYS be saved. I have known many though, that contradict this. One very close, my sister, gave all indications at first that she had been saved. But I am reminded of: Matthew 13:20-22 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. I continue to pray for her, but in retrospect, at no time did she show the love and devotion to Christ on a daily basis that would indicate a true conversion. You see, I know that my heart has been changed. I love the Lord with all my heart mind body and spirit. I truly believe that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and I do not believe that Christ will EVER let me go. I am His and He is mine. Praise God! But you know what? If I go for a day or a week or a month without that steady inflow of the bread of life - the Tree of Life, I begin to lose touch with my moorings. I KNOW that Adam and Eve maintained their life while in the Garden by daily eating of the Tree of Life. Perhaps on the day of their deception, they were distracted from eating of it by the serpant and of course - fell away and fell into sin. Do you honestly believe that Adam and Eve could go all those years in the Garden without eating of the Tree of Life? Please answer this and tell me whether you think that would be reasonable and why. Blessings, Dad Ernie I have no desire at this time to continue an OSAS discussion. I've already had enough of that for one month. Let's try to keep this on-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 22, 2009 That is the first time I have ever heard anyone say they believed Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life.. first time... What did God say after they ate wrongly... Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. If they had eaten of it already there would not have been a need to stop them from eating again as the deed would have been done and they would already live forever in the fallen state... It is so much bigger than that in every aspect of its meaning if they had already eaten of the tree of life... Beyond my ability to even say but I know it is... We can now eat of that Tree as Jesus came and is that hope we had of healing... What it would have been like had they eaten is a terrible thought.. and Yes I believe that nothing can pluck me from my Fathers hands... how can anyone find rest in their hearts if they are always afraid God will cast them off ... I fear his discipline (as it can be harsh but deserved) but I do not fear He will blot me out.. Exactly. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Greetings Blindseeker, First, it was not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that brought death to Adam, it was his disobedience and sin. What brought about the ultimate death of Adam and Eve? It was not having access to the Tree of Life. His disobedience and sin facilitated his death. This is clearly revealed in Gen 3:22. Would you answer the question - Would Adam and Eve go perhaps 70 years, or at least many years without eating of the Tree of Life? Especially since God made an issue of it. What would you do in Adam's situation? Blessings, Dad Ernie The question is easily answered: He went as many years not having eaten of the Tree of Knowledge either. It is therefore unreasonable to presume that Adam or Eve had eaten of the Tree of Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted March 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Greetings Matthitjah, Is it possible at all that they were indeed innocent not having known the Good or the Evil because what more is knowledge than the knowing of something? You and I are born into a world of sin (evil). From birth, all that is alien to God, we are subjected to. Not so with Adam and Eve, they were born into a world of ONLY good. There was no contrasting "evil". In the situation of the Garden, what was "evil"? It was knowing what to do and either not doing it or doing something just the opposite. Eat - Do Not Eat! God has given us commandments telling us what is good and what is evil. We are to choose the Good. Both involve Knowledge, true, but God does not forbid us to have the "good" knowledge. You are old enough to know that when you are told NOT to do something, all your life, you want to find out WHY you can't do it, until such time you find out and you get your fingers burnt. So to obey the Good is to bless you, keep you safe, and keep you right with God and Man. But to do evil, that is not to obey the Good, you will always suffer the consequences: Numbers 32:23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Grace to you, I'm pondering this thought ruminating through my head. Why was it called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Did Adam and Eve not know Good? Actually, the pharse "knowlege of Good and Evil is what is known in Hebrew as a "merism." A merism is a way of expressing totality. Another example of a merism is when Jesus says that he is the "first and the last." "Good and Evil" refers to the totality of knowldge or put another way, the knowledge of all things. It does not mean knowing the difference between good an evil, but rather to know all things, good and evil. In this account, God did not want Adam to come into knowledge of all things at that time. There might have been a time in the future, where Adam and Eve would have been allowed to eat from that tree but for the time being, it was off limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted March 23, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I think I agree with the tempting thing. ie - adam and eve were already going to be living forever because they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. So they had no need to eat of the tree of life. If they were without sin before this point, and were flawless (perfect) as God had created them (why would he deliberatly create a flawed being that had potential to live forever?) - they also wouldn't be tempted to eat of something they had no need to eat of. And the garden was full of other trees that were there for food, which they did need. The tree of life and the tree of the knowlege of good and evil were two particular trees with spiritual consequences attached to their fruit. So the thing that caused adam and eves death - as already mentioned, was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before that, they simply had no need to eat from the tree of life. I'm not following your reasoning on this. Before eating of the ToKoGaE they had no need for the Tree of Life. After they ate of the forbidden tree, they were then prevented from eating of the Tree of Life. So why did the Lord create the Tree of Life? Good question nebula. This brings to mind more questions I have always had. In Rev. 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. This verse and the verses after it speak of how it will be in eternity in the city of God so why do the nations still need to be healed? Do the nations eat the leaves? Do they eat the fruit? I have never been able to discover a biblical answer to these questions. But I do know that when I am there in the city with God and the Lamb I will know then. I know you're not addressing me but I've had the same questions. I think, however, that it might simply be a way of assuring us that all will be well. John Gill says this: ...these leaves will be for the preserving and continuing the health of the people of God in this state, as the tree of life in Eden's garden was for the preservation of the health and life of Adam, had he continued in a state of innocence; and it denotes that everything in Christ will contribute to the comfort, health, and happiness of the saints. So how does he know that? There is no biblical record of Adam ever eating of the tree of life so to say that he di eat of the tree is an assumption with no scriptural base. Assumptions are what they are. They have know footing. Does that mean that the nations will still be flesh? Will they be able to die or will they live forever in the flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted March 23, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2009 Would you answer the question - Would Adam and Eve go perhaps 70 years, or at least many years without eating of the Tree of Life? Especially since God made an issue of it. What would you do in Adam's situation? IMO, no. Being that the Tree of Life was the one of only two specifically and unique trees addressed by God apart from "every tree of the garden," I think it being clearly the specified unique and acceptable one to eat it would have been real close to the top of the "I want to taste" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted March 23, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2009 The question is easily answered: He went as many years not having eaten of the Tree of Knowledge either. It is therefore unreasonable to presume that Adam or Eve had eaten of the Tree of Life. Really? Unreasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted March 23, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2009 Grace to you, I'm pondering this thought ruminating through my head. Why was it called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Did Adam and Eve not know Good? Actually, the pharse "knowlege of Good and Evil is what is known in Hebrew as a "merism." A merism is a way of expressing totality. Another example of a merism is when Jesus says that he is the "first and the last." "Good and Evil" refers to the totality of knowldge or put another way, the knowledge of all things. It does not mean knowing the difference between good an evil, but rather to know all things, good and evil. In this account, God did not want Adam to come into knowledge of all things at that time. There might have been a time in the future, where Adam and Eve would have been allowed to eat from that tree but for the time being, it was off limits. Brother, I understand that, however, in his infancy Adam did not know the evil and did not know the all encompassing nature of the Good. He Trusted God. Let me query further then on this thought and maybe this is my larger examination. Adam didn't know the totality of the Good neither did he know the totality of the evil. He knew what God had told him as pointed out by Dad E. My guess is that Adam didn't even know that in walking with God that he was worshipping Him and in fact was fulfilling the totality of the purpose of his Creation. Adam was in essence living a life of Worship, the one that you and I strive for due to his ignorance and what held him there was his Obedience to what he did know. He knew what God, his Father, had told him. Does that make more sense? After Adam fell God had to show him the proper mode of Worship. Outside of the total all encompassing knowledge, the knowing, of the Good and the Evil as you have stated it. He was indeed innocent because the only thing he was held to account for was what he did know. He could do nothing else, save Worship God, because he did not even know the alternative. He was however, a free moral agent having knowledge of the choice. Now my head really hurts. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts