Guest shiloh357 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 QUOTE Well for one thing the Bible teaches that God loves the Jewish people and they are his chosen people. Maybe I should rephrase my question to, why would Christ have anything to do with the Jews when they've denied that he came in the flesh? Well for one thing, because God keeps His promises. Secondly, because He loves them. Besides, why single out the Jews as the people who rejected Jesus. Lots of Gentiles do to. Should Christ not have anything to do with them either?? QUOTE He refers to "end times" Israel in Zechariah as the Apple of His eye. The ones that confess that he came in the flesh. The Israel of today don't. You're misinterpreting scriptures like the Jews in Christ's generation, carnal. Christ went to prepare a place for us, not earthly Jerusalem but heavenly Jerusalem for our glorified bodies.That is a qualifer YOU are adding to the passage. God is speaking about Israel, not a select portion. You are adding to the Scriptures by adding that qualifer. QUOTE God has an eternal covenant with them that has not been rescinded. That's a lie from the antichrist spirit. If God made an eternal covenant then there wouldn't be a new covenant with gentiles included. No, you need read Gen. 15 where God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and physical descendants. That covenant isstill in effect, and has not been rescinded, like it or not. Since you want to get personal, I can tell that you're not as familiar with the bible as I am and that you're one of those "emperor's new clothes" christians who when lead to water .....etc.. Sorry but I have been studying this for over 16 years and am more than equipped o refute your racist theology. Your position is hermeneutically unsound, and biblically inaccurate at every point. It is VERY sloppy theology. That's the antichrist's spirit of worldly propaganda to make christians believe that christ would accept people that denied him. The truth is not hatred. Hatred is using violence and untruths but the bible makes it clear, he that denies christ will be denied before the father. The guests that refused the invitation to the wedding supper will never taste the supper. That's a fact. You got it all wrong. Hatred comes from an arrogant attitude that claims that God will not have anything to do with a certain person or people on the grounds that they have not accepted or have denied Christ. Strange how that allegation is only leveled at the Jews. Other peoples have denied Christ but do not receive harsh judgment from Christians. It is Jews who conspicuously singled out for special condemnation for sin that is common to the human race. That is hatred and in this case, it is anti-Semitic and is of the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2009 Methinks Romans 9, 10 & 11 might help here: Romans 9 to 11 is the dispensational interlude near the middle of Romans, the Epistle for the Believer. Roman Chaper 9 is Israel Past;Romans Chapter 1O is Israel present, and Romans Chapter 11 is Israel Future.Ah, true, Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Nebula's The eternal covenant which cannot be broken Jer. 33 20 "Thus says the Lord: 'If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. Where's David's throne now? The prophecy is not about the existence of the throne, but having "a son to reign on the throne." An heir doesn't need a throne to be an heir to the throne. History has shown that an heir line of descent can still exist and be placed again on a throne that was lost. Nebula's 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' " 23 Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 "Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the Lord has chosen, He has also cast them off'? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them. 25 "Thus says the Lord: 'If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.' " The prophecies Matt. 23 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "The prophecy being that Jesus will not come again until "Jerusalem" - the heart of the Jews - cry to Jesus, "Blessed be He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Really. Yes, really. You need to come up with a better rebuttal than that. Nebula's Romans 11 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Jesus is by no means finished with the Jews. I can only lead a horse to water. I can't make him drink. I can say the same towards you. Again, you need a better rebuttal than that. Anyone that denies that Christ came in the flesh, is of the Antichrist spirit. When John wrote these words: 1John 4:3 - and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 2John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. the Christians had been infiltrated with a doctrine called Gnosticism, and many Christians were deceived into integrating Gnostic thought with their Christian thought. Gnosticism considered the physical, the flesh, to be evil, and therefore Christ could not have been made flesh, because that would have made Him imperfect. Thus, John was directly addressing this heresy when he wrote that. Otherwise, you will have to say that all non-Christians are of the Anti-Christ spirit, and thus you are wrong for singling out the Jews. "There is no longer Jew nor Gentile". But why does Paul state that the Jews are the natural branches, and that they can be grafted back into their own tree? And why did Paul say: "For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" And by the way, along with "there is not longer Jew and Gentile" it also says "there is neither male nor female." How would you apply this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2009 Since you want to get personal, I can tell that you're not as familiar with the bible as I am and that you're one of those "emperor's new clothes" christians who when lead to water .....etc. Well, I'll admit I'm not up on the whole "emperor's new clothes" story . . . but I am pretty sure the "leading to water" deals with a horse and then not being able to get it to drink. Kinda makes me wonder if this whole "you're so familiar with the bible" thing isn't just as accurate as your analogy. I will say this, though not sure that you can hear up there where you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
precepts Posted August 3, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 129 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 48 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/10/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/10/1968 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Nebula's The prophecy is not about the existence of the throne, but having "a son to reign on the throne." An heir doesn't need a throne to be an heir to the throne. History has shown that an heir line of descent can still exist and be placed again on a throne that was lost. Then where's the heir? Nebula's When John wrote these words: 1John 4:3 - and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 2John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. the Christians had been infiltrated with a doctrine called Gnosticism, and many Christians were deceived into integrating Gnostic thought with their Christian thought. Gnosticism considered the physical, the flesh, to be evil, and therefore Christ could not have been made flesh, because that would have made Him imperfect. Thus, John was directly addressing this heresy when he wrote that.Anyone that denies Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, is of the antichrist spirit. Telling the truth about the Jews is not antiSemetic, it's what the bible says. You're misinterpreting scriptures. Nebula's Otherwise, you will have to say that all non-Christians are of the Anti-Christ spirit, and thus you are wrong for singling out the Jews. All is antichrist, and we were discussing bible truth and that is one of them. If you're offend because I'm defending bible truth, So be it. The fact of the matter is that the idea of Christ returning to a people that denied, and still do deny him, is anti the bible and is of the antichrist spirit. Nebula's But why does Paul state that the Jews are the natural branches, and that they can be grafted back into their own tree? Into the tree of Christ or the original branch that they departed from. Nebula's And why did Paul say: "For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"You're contradicting yourself, you said that they weren't "cast away". What is meant by them being "cast away"? Nebula's And by the way, along with "there is not longer Jew and Gentile" it also says "there is neither male nor female." How would you apply this? Let me guess, you think it applies to a one man to one woman marriage law? BlindSeeker's Well, I'll admit I'm not up on the whole "emperor's new clothes" story . . . but I am pretty sure the "leading to water" deals with a horse and then not being able to get it to drink. Kinda makes me wonder if this whole "you're so familiar with the bible" thing isn't just as accurate as your analogy. I will say this, though not sure that you can hear up there where you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted August 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted August 3, 2009 I know that I shall probably regret these questions, but I am asking them anyway... Precepts... Do you condone sex outside of marriage? Polygamy? I am interested in hearing your take on this, because I may be misunderstanding your beliefs and I do not want to do that. Blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted August 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 3, 2009 I think if the information I'm sharing, was edifying, you wouldn't be complaining. You're complaining because it's contrary to your understanding and you can't rebutt factually. I could almost agree with your first sentence, "if the information I'm sharing, was edifying," but I wasn't complaining. I was trying to explain to you that your consistent speaking down dogmatically to others hinders their receiving the very words you say. Reasoning the word of God with others is a noble thing where one takes the time and posture to gently work a precept through the thought process so others can see the fault in their own understanding and gladly embrace the truth. Debate however is a work of the flesh tucked between murder and deceit. It is exercised by those who are a puffed by their knowledge and failing to recognize that the end of every commandment is love and faith unpolluted by self and ego. I've learned along time ago the benefit of reasoning with reasonable people and the vanity of trying to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The truth is that it is precepts that has rejected te Jews and wants nothing to do with the Jews and he is trying to read is racist, bigoted views into the Bible. Just like Hitler did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
precepts Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 129 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 48 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/10/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/10/1968 Share Posted August 4, 2009 blindseeker's I know that I shall probably regret these questions, but I am asking them anyway... Precepts... Do you condone sex outside of marriage? Polygamy? I am interested in hearing your take on this, because I may be misunderstanding your beliefs and I do not want to do that. Blessings.Everything I post comes from the word and is totally factual. precepts' I think if the information I'm sharing, was edifying, you wouldn't be complaining. You're complaining because it's contrary to your understanding and you can't rebutt factually. blind's I could almost agree with your first sentence, "if the information I'm sharing, was edifying," but I wasn't complaining. I was trying to explain to you that your consistent speaking down dogmatically to others hinders their receiving the very words you say. Reasoning the word of God with others is a noble thing where one takes the time and posture to gently work a precept through the thought process so others can see the fault in their own understanding and gladly embrace the truth. Debate however is a work of the flesh tucked between murder and deceit. It is exercised by those who are a puffed by their knowledge and failing to recognize that the end of every commandment is love and faith unpolluted by self and ego. I've learned along time ago the benefit of reasoning with reasonable people and the vanity of trying to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
precepts Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 129 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 48 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/10/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/10/1968 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Cobalt's There are plenty more where those come from, but since you have such a stellar understanding of the Bible, you already know that. The gist of the message is that it is always to be delivered in humility, gentleness, respect, and love, not like a pompous jerk bludgeoning baby seals. If you feel you are called to speak the truth to someone, speak it and your responibility to do so has been met. Comments like "you can lead a horse to water," or "I know more than you" only serve to cause people to dismiss the message immediately, because the delivery is not in keeping with Christian behavior. Delivering the message from a position of superiority will never get positive results. Not to mention that while you are busily accusing one and all here of having an antichrist spirit, you are displaying one yourself by failing to treat your Christian brethern in the way called upon by scripture. Kind of a "do as I say and not as I do attitude." Petty stuff. Cobalt's As for the thread at hand, God is not done with Israel. He has an unbreakable covenant with them. Scripture is very clear on that, and it is not a concept that is even difficult to understand or somehow hidden. Only people with racial biases, or beliefs that would make them uncomfortable to believe God still has a clear and manifest purpose for Israel would twist scripture to say that God has abandoned the Jews. That statement is false, and it is really bad and baseless theology.I guess it depends and who you talk to. Cobalt's You said the Jews rejected Christ. And your point would be? Every race of people on this earth have people within it who have rejected Christ. But I don't ever see Christians coming onto forums like this and saying "The Japanese rejected Christ. God is done with the Japanese" "The Germans won't accept Christ, they are all done." Nope, it's always the Jews that are to blame and all washed up. You're such a hypocrite, do the Japanese or any other group claim to possess Christ wil denying him? That's just plain stupid. Cobalt's Many Jews have accepted Jesus as their Savior. Your statements imply that none have. They do? Cobalt's Romans 15:8-10 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name." 10 Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." Hmm. Pretty odd for Paul to tell the Gentiles to rejoice with the Jews when they are to inherit bupkis, spiritually, according to you. . . I would think the gentiles of that time would of celebrated with the christianized jews. That doesn't apply to this time. There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. shiloh's The truth is that it is precepts that has rejected te Jews and wants nothing to do with the Jews and he is trying to read is racist, bigoted views into the Bible. Just like Hitler did.Thanks for the encouraging words, shiloh, but everything is written, and none of the guests that refused Christ's invitation will taste of his supper. Trying to make a nation to fit prophecies that you can interpret is pure folly. The 1st and 2nd resurrections have already occurred in heaven, the next stop is the wheat and tares, the wheat into the barn(New Jerusalem) and the wicked into the lake of fire. There's no doubt in my mine about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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