What Is Your Basis For Discernment?

[stevehut]

I read the Bible daily.

After 14 years, this influence has begun to shape my reflexive thinking process. As my thinking process changes, my decisions and behavior have changed.

School of hard knocks has taught me a few things, and observing the experiences of my friends.

Sometimes the Bible doesn't have a precise answer for a given situation, but I almost always find a helpful parallel or example.

Kinda like that.

[GoodSamaritan]

By more than one correct interpretation, are you speaking of translations?

No, I'm talking about inerpreting what God's Will is through the reading of Scripture, not translation of said Scripture. The fact that there exist many thousand different interpretations of 'revealed truth', many of which directly conflict, could be a hint that personal revelation takes a back seat to the revelation which teh Apostles received.

I believe that Faith is a very indivdual thing; that two believers of the same denomination, for example, will have slightly different beliefs because of the different make-up of those two believers in terms of life experience, etc. I also believe that woven within the Scripture we accept as Christians is an absolute truth of a Faith to which we are called by God. Given an absolute truth, Christians should be arriving at this, and at some level be in agreement, despite subtle individual differences.

But I don't accept that we should rely on some "gut-feeling" to know that we are hearing the the absolute truth under the inspiration of God or by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We may very well be hearing the truth, and others should be as well. So I guess what I might be implying in the Topic is that if you find that you are "out in the wilderness" with your beliefs, and can find no one who believes as you do, then rather than interpret that as you having the truth, and no one else, you should interpret that to mean that you got it wrong somewhere and maybe you should dig harder for the truth (or for the fullness of Faith to which God has called us).

Just an opinion. Not throwing the gauntlet (it's still on my hand).

I think that it is clear here that Peter is saying that true prophecy is the direct Word of God, spoken directly through a person, not something God tells someone, which they then interpret and deliver.

I respectfully submit that you look at that passage again. For nowhere, except in assumption and wishful thinking, does that verse even IMPLY a thing about the Word being spoken to individuals. The fact that he uses the word 'NO' says that interpreting passages on one's own (discernment by asking the Spirit) is unacceptable.

Are you saying that some intermediary is neccessary (i.e. the Pope)? I believe that it is good to seek counsel, but no man speaks purely truth. We, as humans, are bound to disagree, it is paramount, however, that we agree on the redemptive and divine nature of Christ.

I'm saying that Scripture does not tell us to 'pray to the Spirit and discern Scripture for ourselves.' I believe that Scripture does just what it says in 2 Timothy 3:16--it equips us for our role in the Church. But absent some authority to provide a reference point, we are left with 23,000 different interpretations of the same verses. You seem to say that we believe in 'core essentials' and differ on peripheral stuff. what you call 'core essentials' may be perpipheral and insignificant to others reading the exact same words. How do you KNOW that an issue is a core essential? If you claim that the Holy Spirit gave you the Answer, then you have set yourself up as an authoritative figure for interpretation of Scripture. If you do not set yourself up as the 'knower of truth from the Holy Spirit', then the Truth you've received from the Spirit is suspect. You seem to say that core essentials do not divide us as Christians--I would respectfully disagree. Any issue that can splinter the Church that Christ put on earth MUST be a core essential based on its' effect alone. Still, the question still remains: Was Peter mistaken when he prnounced personal interpretation of Scripture unacceptable? Surely he would not have uttered these words had he already had an authority in mind, right? Would he think that the issue of authority, the issue that caused the split of Christ's Church, would be a core essential or an insignificant one?

I don't disagree that God speaks to us, this has always been so and always will be so. But is this sufficient for one person to interpret Scripture from? If so, how do you reconcile what Scripture says?

The Bible says "In the multitude of counselors there is safety".

Jesus said that every word should be established by at least 2-3 witnesses.

St John stated that we should not believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they be of God.

St Paul stated that the prophets of God should speak 2 or 3 and then the others should render judgement.

All these 'witnesses' suggest this 'personal revelation' position that all one needs is a Bible and God is entirely WRONG and actually goes against what the Bible, Christ and the Apostles ever taught.

In fact, it was in the multitude of counselors that those books that would be considered canon were to be considered. The Bible did not assemble itself, but was done thru the mutual efforts of fellow believers over time.

Scripture alone is our guide.

Can you show me the verse that says Scripture ALONE is our guide? Why would God give us a book and then not give us an authority to tell us its meaning? He has never done this so why would he depend on ordinary men and women to take it upon themselves to figure out his Word? This is unscriptural, not historical, and not reasonable, IMO. The Church Fathers prove that it is not historical--they all claim that Tradition AND Scripture (along with a teaching authority given by Christ) make up the Faith.

But look at it from a standard of reasonability. WHen the Founding Fathers of this nation banged heads for 11+years to hammer out the Constitution, what would've happened had they just passed out Constitutions to every household and let each family interpret the Laws of the Land? Answer: Anarchy. Without a judicial branch to determine what these laws meant, the US wouldn't have lasted long, IMO. So it is with the Bible. Discernment is important, of course. But it is to be used to determine when we are being deceived, when the devil is tempting us, and whether or not we are following the teachings of Christ's Apostles (and thereby, Christ himself). The Church was always the authority who defined Scripture, it wasn't left to the Holy Spirit revealing it to individuals PRECISELY because of the possiblity of deviating from the correct teaching. If Scripture self authenticates(please show us this verse) as you say, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

Anyway, I'm trying to understand how it is many here KNOW the Word of God, what means, etc. God Bless!

[tsth]

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Amen Dad Ernie!

I haven't read the rest, but just had to comment on your post when I read it!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[GoodSamaritan]

QUOTE (Dad Ernie @ Jun 29 2004, 01:57 PM)

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Indeed, those are inspirational and clear. Now where does Matthew or Isaiah, or Luke (Author of Acts) tell us what the 'Word' is? Based on Isaiah's verse, it's the written law and that which is spoken. Matthew seems to say that written word is part of the Word of God but also words that are SPOKEN from the mouth of God(prophets, Jesus, Apostles, etc). St. Luke, in telling us about the Bereans actually seems to also convey that Scripture ALONE is not 'Word of God'. I think that would be a great topic to discuss--the Bereans.

Now with regard to Isaiah, I'm sure a prophet could discern one who has no light in them. How do we know that WE can? And if we can, would we not proclaim ourselves authoritative? Should I disagree with your discernment, who is right and should ANYONE be right?

With regard to Matthew, would we know every word of God without someone telling us what is inspired and what is not? If we read, for example, the Gospel of Peter, would some of us consider it inspired and others not? I submit that this would be the case because it WAS the case in the early Church. The Gospel of Peter was used in Masses in Antioch, Jerusalem, and Caesarea. Later, however, the writing was pronounced uninspired and NOT the Word of God. Absent some authority (whom, if you believe them, MUST be infallible for, failure would mean that our Bible is flawed), how could we be sure what is Word and what is not?

With regard to Acts, I would submit that Acts makes it crystal clear who was the authority--the Apostles. Acts Chapters 1-5 clearly show Peter as the head of the Church. Peter then goes on to say that no Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation and Paul says that anyone who teaches different from the Apostles 'let him be anathema'. What did THEY think was the role of discernment in our Christian faith? God Bless!

GS

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GoodSamaritan,

Please visit the Bible Answer Man (Hank Hanegraff) at:

http://www.equip.org/

and go down the list to find CONTACT CRI (Christian Research Institute). I have submitted questions to him before and he has FREELY responded (or rather his team) with literature which he mailed to me. He has a lot of good solid scriptural answers for the questions you have.

I first came to the Lord way back in about 1955, but soon walked away from Him. Then again in 1975, I met Him again and truly it was just as if it were the first time and I fell humbly at His feet. I am now 59 and looking 60 in the face. Neither I, nor anyone can PROVE to you what you are seeking. Either you accept by "faith" what God has to say, or you deny Him and reject the scriptures. The choice is solely up to you.

I pray that Christ intercedes on your behalf before the Father. Sorry, Mary can't do that - she is dead, but Jesus is ALIVE. Perhaps Hank may provide some of the answers you need.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[GoodSamaritan]

Wow, that seems like quite a bitter post, Ernie. I'm still not clear about the 'Mary's dead' stuff but it sounds like SOMEONE has a gross misunderstanding about Catholicism. Let's leave it at that.

So am I also to understand that you consider the 'The Bible Man' your authority? Why? Is this because you agree with what he says or is it because you KNOW that this is TRUTH? If it's the latter, on what basis do you discern this? Is it possible that 'The Bible Man' is wrong? If not, why not?

I truly do appreciate any prayers from you but, in keeping with your bitter words against the Mother of Jesus earlier, your intercession would be useless, wouldn't it?

I am now 59 and looking 60 in the face. Neither I, nor anyone can PROVE to you what you are seeking. Either you accept by "faith" what God has to say, or you deny Him and reject the scriptures. The choice is solely up to you.

Where have I denied this statement in any post i've submitted? We have a choice in all that we do, praise God. The key lies in DISCERNING the ones that allow us to walk with the Lord, right? It all starts with faith. Then it continues with DISCERNMENT--as paul put it, 'He who doeth the will of my Father'. As i posted earlier, these topics are not meant to throw down a gauntlet--they're to get folks (including myself) to sharpen their power to discern and, hopefully, to help us 'work out our salvation in fear and trembling.'

Ernie, I'd be glad to discuss Mary and her role in my Church should you genuinely want to know. Of course, if you continue on with your preconceptions, that's OK too. We can start with what the 'Bible Man' has to say about it if you like. God Bless!

GS

[stevehut]

Good Sam,

Could you put up your messages in smaller posts? It would help me to understand your POV, with one issue at a time.

Thanks

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GS,

Wow, that seems like quite a bitter post, Ernie. I'm still not clear about the 'Mary's dead' stuff but it sounds like SOMEONE has a gross misunderstanding about Catholicism. Let's leave it at that.

Ernie, I'd be glad to discuss Mary and her role in my Church should you genuinely want to know. Of course, if you continue on with your preconceptions, that's OK too. We can start with what the 'Bible Man' has to say about it if you like.

First, I was not "bitter" as you assume. I was making a point that it is Jesus to whom you should be praying directly for He is our intercessor with the Father. There is NO intercessor dead or alive that you have to go through to talk to Jesus.

Secondly, I respect Hank as an authority in many, if not most Bible doctrines, even as I respect the writings handed down by many of our forefathers in the faith.

May I suggest you just take some time, write Hank and get some of his FREE literature. You may even find him listed on one of your local Bible Radio Stations in your area. He has one hour each day during the week where callers may call in and ask him questions or even debate issues. He is forceful and powerful in his delivery, but he is also meek and respectful. You would do well to listen to him.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[GoodSamaritan]

Ernie--

I know what point you were making, I just had a bit of a problem with the sentiment you were expressing toward Mary, that's all. I've heard Hank's show before. I am familiar with Hank and, believe it or not, knew about the Christian principles he espouses before he started doing so. These are not new arguments or interpretations, but merely the same interpretations I have seen from countless others from Swaggart to Chick to James McCarthy. I'm sorry but I won't support this man financially as I, like you, have had great travels in my faith only to come home to where I began. By no means do I think he's incorrect on everything. Indeed, there is common ground between Catholicism and Protestant/Evangelical Churches. The differences, however, are great and wide and deep.

Tell you what, I'll be glad to listen to the Answer Man if you'd be willing to listen to Catholic Answers Radio.

God Bless!

GS

p.s. Stevehut, i apologize for the novels i tend to write. I got C's in 'Is Neat And Orderly' in elementary school!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GS,

Many years ago I delved into Catholicism, along with other religions. I eventually came to the conclusion that Christ is the ONLY way, truth and life. It is not found in the Pope, John Bunyan, or Billy Graham. You are involved in a "works based" religion full of men's traditions, much like the Pharisees. I do not need to, nor have any desire to listen to a Catholic Radio station.

I am sorry to hear you disagree with Hank so much. Have you ever called into his talk show? If not, you should, perhaps some head to head conversation will clarify the scriptures for you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie