The Gospel or What???

[stevehut]

are we really saying that true conversion doesn't happen at a specific moment? I have to say that is a rather progressive idea.

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Of course conversion happens at a moment in time. But it was at the end of a process of education and repentance.

In a similar way, my house was completed at a moment in time. But it still took six months to build.

[book_wirm]

When I was growing up, the idea of someone believing in Jesus Christ as his/her Savior meant confession and repentance of sin.

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I don't know when you grew up but the only idea I have ever heard in all 7 churches I have been a member of is the same as what you say first...that placing faith in Christ as our savior means confession and repentence. But the spirit of this thread seems to be very much against the idea of "instant" conversion and I know of no other kind.

And, some even go as far as to tell them that from that point on if they sin, it is no longer held against them...

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This is plain wickedness. Teachers would do well to remember Jame's words: "Know ye not that we shall recieve the greater judgement."

I believe we are giving them false security.

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I have no doubt this happens, but again, I know of no other form of conversion than an instantaneous one.

Conversion.. was at the end of a process of education and repentance. 

In a similar way, my house was completed at a moment in time.  But it still took six months to build.

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I cannot agree with you on this one Steve but I have loved reading many of your other posts so I hope it is received in the peaceful spirit in which is was written. Repentence is a fruit of true conversion which, agreed, comes through sound education but by work of the Holy Spirit. Our salvation is not a house...it is a foundation. And one which no man can lay any other than that which is laid, Christ Jesus. It is now for us to be cautious what we build upon that sure foundation....what sort of house we build upon it. For each man's building shall be tried by fire and each man shall suffer loss for the sins and failures of his flesh though his soul shall be saved as by fire.

Great thread and EXCELLENT topic! To put forth a form of salvation which says "accept" Christ and you can go on how you always have...

it is nothing but the acidic spitting of the devil himself.

But please, brothers and sisters, let us be cautious not to detract from the sure rest in the ultimate simplicity of the true gospel.

In Christ,

Eric

[Guest Bro David™]

Great thread and EXCELLENT topic! To put forth a form of salvation which says "accept" Christ and you can go on how you always have...

it is nothing but the acidic spitting of the devil himself.

But please, brothers and sisters, let us be cautious not to detract from the sure rest in the ultimate simplicity of the true gospel.

In Christ,

Eric

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True Eric, I find the Lord speaking very clearly when I look at scripture with the simple understanding of a Child.

I agree with you, when we check in, all our knowledge at the door before searching thru scripture I find it so much more easier to understand and derive the simple truth and the simple way the Scripture is written in.

Maybe not so for Revelation, I need a few aspirins for that one ..LOL

God bless you all.

YBIC

[Guest WhySoBlind]

However, I noticed no where the issue of repent and confessing sin. Can we have salvation without repentance and confession of sin?

Nope.

Still, the book has a lot of good in it. Any church or believer can benefit from it.

I agree with you on this. What I have read so far would be good for most people to read.

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Get real.

Rick Warren quotes from C. S. Lewis, a HIGH FANTASY WRITER and friend to J.R.R. Tolkien, another HIGH FANTASY PAGAN WRITER who was only ALLEGEDLY a Christian, C. Peter Wagner, author of "The Message", a strictly paganized perversion of the Bible, and Robert Schuller, a New Age teacher. These people are NOT Bible believing christians, yet they are Rick Warren's greatest inspirations and he quotes them over and over again, often without even giving refrences. He mingles their antichristian false doctrines, sometimes word for word, into his own writing so that one cannot distinquish who's ideas are who's. Yet Mr. Warren quotes scripture, but the majority come from "Interpretations" of the Bible, such as The Message and the Amplified, and not "Translations" such as the King James.

The PDL/PDC is NOT about pointing people to Jesus Christ, it is about promoting Rick Warren's programs and books. It has overturned the church world, removing the signs that used to say "Got Jesus?", and replacing them with "Got Purpose?", which is better evidence than anything anyone could provide for the first sentence of this paragraph. The church world is no longer promoting Jesus, but the PDL books and programs. They are no longer pointing people to the Lord, but to a cell group, a book other than the Bible, or just about anything. Some of these "Purpose Driven", alleged churches have the audacity to "PREACH" from the "Lord of The Rings" and "Harry Potter" books in order to "Reach the occultist crowd and the children", and so on.

Before some fool goes defending these pagan books as well, I beg you to consider the fact that you can visit a non-christian site, and start chatting with the witches and atheists, and guess what their favorite books are? Those written by J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis and Napolean Hill. Yet these are the same people RICK WARREN and ROBERT SCHULLER loves to quote so much.

I just visited a church yesterday, one of the largest churches in my state in fact, and guess what I saw there? Instead of normal, old time christianitys' "Baby Jesus" and "The Lord's Supper", they have pictures of VOODOO WITCH DOCTORS on the wall in their ceremonial headpieces and garb. They have symbols on the carpet that look like something out of FRIDAY THE THIRTEENTH. They have psychedelic coloring and marking, twisted worldly fonts for the text of all of their signs in the church, they have segregated congregations, that is men seperate from women, adults seperate from children, and meetings and are doing the PDL and the G12! They have remodeled the entire church to look as UNCHRISTIAN as possible. It looks like a SHOPPING MALL in a pagan country, and I am not exaggerating. Why does it look like this? Because that is what these PAGAN books and programs keep telling the Pastors to do in order to draw the biggest crowd. Since the church turned to the PDL and the G12 "Church Growth Models", they have EXPLODED in numbers and wealth. Why? Because it APPEALS TO THE FLESH. Their "Program" for the night's sermon mentioned the "Cell groups"(Pyramid Scheme anyone?), Encounter seminars(seances), and other schemes from all the different BEST SELLING books they've read, that is except the BIBLE.

NONE OF THIS GARBAGE IS IN THE BIBLE AT ALL.

So what is the church giving people these days? They are leading them straight to satan himself.

[stevehut]

1- When I was growing up, the idea of someone believing in Jesus Christ as his/her Savior meant confession and repentance of sin.

2- The person making the decision to receive Christ understood that it meant abandoning his/her life of sin and instead turning to follow Christ.

3- The problem as I see it is that we have gotten away from that. Instead, we are preaching "another Jesus." We are telling people that if they want to go to heaven all they have to do is pray a prayer to receive Christ as their Savior and when they die they get to go to heaven.

4- When Jesus called his disciples the Bible tells us they "left everything" and followed him. It means jumping to safety. It means letting go of what is going to burn and cause us to burn up with it.

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1- Of course these things can happen at the same time. But they are still two separate things.

2- Not where I come from.

3- Yup.

4- Well put.

[stevehut]

Perish the thought that we would think the rehearsing of some prayer coaxed from the unregenerate will gain them anything in the next world...

but also the thought that the sincere prayer of a man who's eyes are newly opened by the God is of no avail.

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I don't think sincerity is the issue. If that was the case, then just about every religious organization in the world would have to be validated.

The issue is obeying the commands of Christ. And if you disobey (especially if you have a Bible as the means to know better), all the sincereity in thre world won't matter.

[Iryssa]

Get real.

Rick Warren quotes from C. S. Lewis, a HIGH FANTASY WRITER and friend to J.R.R. Tolkien, another HIGH FANTASY PAGAN WRITER who was only ALLEGEDLY a Christian, C. Peter Wagner, author of "The Message", a strictly paganized perversion of the Bible, and Robert Schuller, a New Age teacher. These people are NOT Bible believing christians, yet they are Rick Warren's greatest inspirations and he quotes them over and over again, often without even giving refrences. He mingles their antichristian false doctrines, sometimes word for word, into his own writing so that one cannot distinquish who's ideas are who's. Yet Mr. Warren quotes scripture, but the majority come from "Interpretations" of the Bible, such as The Message and the Amplified, and not "Translations" such as the King James.

As far as C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien go, both were Christians. Have you ever read "Mere Christianity" (written by C.S. Lewis)? Or "Surprised by Joy?" If you can read those and not believe he was a Christian, I don't know who you WILL believe is a Christian. It's also a commonly known fact that Tolkien's friendship with Lewis was very instrumental in Clive's acceptance of Christ, and they had many theological discussions throughout their friendship.

I hardly think that writing fantasy novels (whether High Fantasy or not) makes someone suddenly unsaved...certainly not anymore than wearing a certain brand of t-shirt or drinking Starbucks coffee does. They're fiction, no more, no less, and they don't claim to be otherwise. (in the case of Narnia...those books contain a lot of intentionally allegorical depictions of Biblical stories and truths)

Before some fool goes defending these pagan books as well, I beg you to consider the fact that you can visit a non-christian site, and start chatting with the witches and atheists, and guess what their favorite books are? Those written by J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis and Napolean Hill. Yet these are the same people RICK WARREN and ROBERT SCHULLER loves to quote so much.

I see...so, following this logic...because many non-Christians love those books, that makes the books evil? By the same logic, that would mean that I'm not saved, because a lot of unsaved people seem to enjoy my company, as I enjy theirs. Or that my couch is evil, because a lot of unsaved people have sat on it. Or that the internet is evil, because a lot of unsaved people love it (I note that you enjoy using the internet, since you're here...)

Anyway, just had to address those things.

Now...back on topic.

I don't think that mass altar-calls should be discounted because they don't always come out the way we expect them to...It would be a terrible thing to tell a Christian that they aren't saved because they didn't do it "properly." Honestly, I don't think there's a real formula for that moment of becoming saved, apart from the obvious parts of accepting Christ as Lord and repenting. God is Gracious (ironically, or not, that's what my real name means). I don't think He's gonna turn away someone who's hungry for Him just because they walked up an aisle or raised their hand. No, the real heart of the salvation "issue" is exactly that: the heart.

I can see why people would be skeptical about altar calls, because of bad stories or what have you...but we need to accept that people don't always have hearts like the fertile soil talked about in the parable. No matter what "method" someone uses or what prayer they pray, there is always a chance that that person has a heart like the rocky ground or that they are prone to being choked out by weeds. This should not cause us to lose hope. I have seen a lot of good come from altar calls, despite the bad rep they have. Many of my friends made their decision at an altar call. I don't think it's all that bad of a method, really...it gives people a chance to acknowledge what they've been hungry for and seeking and what they now accept. Again, you'll always have those ones that don't know what they're really getting into (for lack of a better way to put it)...but what about those ones that do know? Those ones that just needed that last bit of encouragement? Those ones that really are saved? I don't think any of them would say they regret it, in this life or the next.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Iryssa

[stevehut]

1- I don't think there's a real formula for that moment of becoming saved, apart from the obvious parts of accepting Christ as Lord and repenting.

2- I can see why people would be skeptical about altar calls, because of bad stories or what have you...but we need to accept that people don't always have hearts like the fertile soil talked about in the parable.

3- No matter what "method" someone uses or what prayer they pray, there is always a chance that that person has a heart like the rocky ground or that they are prone to being choked out by weeds.

4- Again, you'll always have those ones that don't know what they're really getting into

5- but what about those ones that do know?

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1- Ah, the apostles might disagree with that.

2- If they really had good hearts, they wouldn't make a decision so impulsively. Which is why we shouldn't ask them to.

3- Which is exactly the reason why altar calls are dangerous.

4- And for this reason, my church will never do an altar call.

5- In the course of a single sermon, a three-minute sermon, and a prayer? I wouldn't be so sure.

[book_wirm]

I don't think sincerity is the issue.  If that was the case, then just about every religious organization in the world would have to be validated. 

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I thought it was obvious that I was not promoting blind...or ignorant sincerity by the fact that I said the sincere prayer of a man who's eyes are "newly opened by God"....

I agree, sincerity does not equel true...but I never said that it did.

2- If they really had good hearts, they wouldn't make a decision so impulsively.  Which is why we shouldn't ask them to.

3- Which is exactly the reason why altar calls are dangerous. 

5- In the course of a single sermon, a three-minute sermon, and a prayer?    I wouldn't be so sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2...Just as sincerity does not equal true, instantaneous (or "impulsive" as you term it) does not equal false. There is no instruction given to "how long" someone must learn before salvation is possible for them.

3...Not using alter calls (and I am not trying to persuade you to do so) does not solve the problem of false confessions.

5...Most definitely. I would be so sure....but I would also watch for proof of that confession to manifest in the days, months, and years which follow it.

In Christ,

Eric

[stevehut]

1-Just as sincerity does not equal true, instantaneous (or "impulsive" as you term it) does not equal false.

2- There is no instruction given to "how long" someone must learn before salvation is possible for them.

3- Not using alter calls (and I am not trying to persuade you to do so) does not solve the problem of false confessions.

4- Most definitely. I would be so sure....but I would also watch for proof of that confession to manifest in the days, months, and years which follow it.

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1- Yup. Even so, it's setting the bar quite low.

2- Agreed. But I think it should more than a sermon, a three-minute discussion, and a short prayer.

3- My concern is not for false confessions. Again, I don't question the sincerity of the people who solicit (or come forward for) instant conversions. What I question, is the meaniningfulness (if that's a word ) of such a quick process.

4- So you want to proclaim a man saved before observing evidence of his faith and repentance? Sounds dangerous to me.