A question about Jews and Gentiles

[Guest Azrael]

Ok. I do know that the Jews during the Old Testiment where basically god's favorite race of people and I problably already know the answer but I would like some clarity.. when Jesus died he died for the Sins of all mankind sooo..

what happens to all the gentiles that lived and died before that. and what happened basically to anyone that died before Jesus came.

think about it for a second say you where a gentile 100 years before the crucifixion and you died without ever hearing the message of jesus. and lets also say you where a kind hearted Soldier that fell in battle but was ordered to commit some pretty horrible acts by your king. so does this poor guy go to hell or is he automatically forgiven for his sins?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Azrael,

Have you read much of the Old Testament? If not, you really should. You will find many gentiles that came to worship the God of the Jews. Salvation has not changed from Adam to now. It is by grace are you saved through faith... We frequently see oblique references to: the lamb, the Son, the suffering Messiah, the Lion of Judah, the King to come and perhaps others as well. One particular verse I like is:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? (REF: Eph 4:8-9)

This is speaking of Father God and His Son Jesus, if it is not so obvious to you. God has made Himself visible through His creation to everyone. When He is acknowledged and looked to, God reveals His Son. For the OT believers, they looked FORWARD to the cross and for us we look BACK to the cross.

Does that help?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest Azrael]

Yes I've read the whole Bible actually... ok let me rephrase that question then. what about people who lived in japan or early Noth america at the time who where seperated by continents and had no way of knowing whatsoever.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Azrael,

Yes I've read the whole Bible actually... ok let me rephrase that question then. what about people who lived in japan or early Noth america at the time who where seperated by continents and had no way of knowing whatsoever.

Are those the ones that were descended from "apes" or were they descended from Adam and Eve like the rest of us?

From the very beginning all of creation has revealed that there IS a God, no matter if you are in Japan, America or Africa.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest sushionbread]

This is also a question about Jews n Gentiles...

Plz Read: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsoc...ve_In_Jesus.asp

Are there ways to refute these arguments?

[Qun Mang]

I sincerely hope so. As a Christian I won't buy into their arguments, but I just read them and they are very convincing. Enough to make someone on the edge reject Jesus. Very dangerous.

They do pose a question I have been wondering about for some time- Jesus and the line of David. No, I am not going to reject or even question Him as Savior so I know there is a good answer to this- I just don't know what it is. It seems to also reject the adopted son argument as well as a "Mary in the line of David" argument I never heard of.

[Guest yod]

yes, there are very good answers to those objections but unfortunately it is too late tonight for me to get into it.

But not to worry....your faith is not in vain. Most of the things that Aish have mentioned are easily explained and countered but it takes more time than I have at the moment.

Yeshua was the Messiah and still is. Someday all the earth will see it.

I'll try to find a faster connection and come back...in the meantime...Shiloh could do this in quick order.

[Guest LadyC]

ok, quick answer.

abraham did not know God. he was from a society that worshipped many gods. he'd never heard of the one true living God. and then one day, God spoke, abraham listened.

scriptures say that all will have the chance to know God. i have no reason to believe that God does not create an opportunity, even back then, so that person had or will have the choice to worship Him.

[Guest shiloh357]

1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

It is important to note that when Jewish objectors to Yeshua claim that there is no Second Coming concept in the Bible, they are just willfully blind. The Talmud is basically a Jewish commentary on the Tanakh, and it has been altered over the centuries to delete remarks made by Rabbis about how certain Scriptures point to the Messiah. They deleted most if not all those remarks simply because Christians were using the Talmud itself to show that Scritpures such as Isaiah 53 indeed pointed to the Messiah.

In the first Century there was a debate about the Messiah. It is based up on two competing concepts of Messiah, one was called the Messiah ben Joseph, (suffering Messiah, and the other was called Messiah ben David (warrior, King Messiah). Naturally, because of their current state, the King Messiah concept recieved the greatest favor. They wanted a deliverer. The two Messiah debate centered around the question: Would their be ONE Messiah to fulfill two roles, or Two Messiahs to fulfill one role, each? This Two Messiah idea was born out of Gen.49 where Jacob pronounces blessings on his sons. When they got to Judah and Joseph, they saw to types of Messiahs.

When the ancient Rabbis would read the Tanakh, they would see prophecies like Isaiah 53, and Zech 21:9 as Messiah ben Joseph, and Prophecies concerning the establisment of the Kindom as referring to Messiah ben David. So the only question was are these the same person or two people?

That is what John the Baptist was asking Jesus. "Are you the one, or should we expect another?" He was not doubting that Jesus was the Messiah, we was wanting to know the answer to that question. John the Baptis was amazing, sitting there in prison knowing he is goingn to die, and all he can think about is theology.

His faith was not shaken as some try to say. He was the greatest of all the prophets, according to Jesus. He was not a reed shaken in the wind. He knew Jesus even in the womb, and saw the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus and heard the Voice of God. It is unlikely that he was having doubts.

Jesus answered his question in two parts. One was a reference to his minsitry on earth, and the other was a reference to his second coming when He said,

Matthew 11:6

    "And blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me."

More later

[nebula]

Well, it turns out that Azarael has been de-membered. Pray for the man.

But, there is a passage in Roman that deals with this question - I'm suprised no one mentined this yet.

Romans 2

9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

As for sushi's question, the web page makes claims without evidence.

Example: "Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists. "

Where does it say "the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright"?

"The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)"

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. "

Well, since Isaiah 11:2 was used as a reference, let's see what it says.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-

the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,

the Spirit of counsel and of power,

the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -

OK. Don't see how that fits with the claim as given. Though I do not understand why the author does not believe Jesus fulfilled this verse.

Anyway, it's funny that Buddhists and Muslims regard Jesus as a great prophet. I heard the testimony of the late Keith Green (Christian musician/singer); he decided to follow Jesus because he studied other religions and not one of them had anything bad to say about Jesus! He figured that if the key figures of these other religions regarded Jesus with such respect, then maybe in deed He is the One to follow! :bright:

Now, as for "Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry," - what does he base this claim on?

Did not God prophecy to Abraham? Did not God prophecy to Mosis? Were there other Jews in the land at those times?

The other question is: Are you sure prophecy ended? How do you not know it was just the writing of the prophecies that had ended.

"Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Well, if you read the passages in context, it was not the Torah Jesus was violating, but the traditons surrounding the commandments of the Torah - which were placing extra burdens on the people - that Jesus was not "observing." Big difference.

"Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true."

What about Abraham?

"Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person."

I'd like to know how the author classifies the ten plaques of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night that led the Israelites out of Egypt and to the Promised Land, . . . .

Likewise, what I read in Exodus - Deuteronomy is God speaking to one man, Moses, and then Moses teaching what had been given to him to the people. In fact, in the times mentioned where God's voice was heard by the people, they were terrified and begged Moses to be the sole revelator.

"Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago."

Again, what about the miracles in Egypt? Do those mean nothing?

I might also add that if not for the miracles, those men, women, and children would have turned away from the God who brought them to Mount Sinai. Don't believe me? Read the books! They created a calf to be their god, of all things! When things got rough in the desert, they nearly turned back around to return to Egypt. Had not God performed new miracles, every indication is that they would have done so.

No, those miracles were essential to the establishment of what would become Judaism.

Does that help you, sushi?