Church of Christ: Cult,sect or true

[Guest shiloh357]

There are people out there who do not believe in Christ and lead a good life. Just because someone is good does not automatically earn them a spot in heaven. Billy Graham also teaches the "sinner's prayer." Where in the bible can I find that?

The sinner's prayer is abiblical. It is not promoted or mentioned in the Bible, but it does not violate any biblical doctrines. It is a point of contact for the benefit of the person getting saved. It simplly helps them to remember the moment in time they were saved.

Do you believe that if one wants to become a faithful follower that they need to turn away from their old ways?

That is the natural fruit of being a follower of Jesus. Trying to reform yourself before coming to Christ is pointless. It is Christ who changes us from the inside out

God did not give the children of Israel the law while they were ibondage in Egypt. He did not make their salvation from slavery dependent on keeping his commandments. God saved them first and THEN gave them his laws. Obedience is the fruit of our freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin.

QUOTE

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Titus 2:11-14)

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts: Sounds more like a work than just grace

we should live soberly: Sounds more than like a work than just grace

Yes, they are works, but those works are the result of grace. It what a person under grace will do and how they will live. Grace is the expectation of holiness.

Grace is a gift, but it is a gift that can be denied too. No one is saying that salvation is completely up to you but you DO have to do YOUR part.

YOur part is to receive God's grace.

You can't just say, ok God I'm yours now so I'm gonna go over here and drink with my buddies, but I have faith you're there and you'll do everything for me.

No one proposed such a scenario. As I said earlier, grace is the expectation of holiness.

If that was the case Abraham, Moses, Noah, all of them could have just sat back and let God take care of them. I mean if it's all up to God then why didn't He just make the ark for Noah, Himself?

Because faith is always accompanied by corresponding action. Their faith was evidenced by their works. You don't work to get faith. The reason we know these men had great faith was because of what they did. The faith has to be there in order for the works to manifest.

But the difference is He taught that if it was found in your heart you have committed a sin. Sounds to me like a bit of a change in things don't you think?

Not at all. Jesus was restoring the true spirit of the law that had been perverted by the Rabbis. That is why the law taught to circumcise the heart. Heart circumcision refers to getting rid of sinfu motives and desires. Just as Jesus taught, sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh.

But it's more than faith. The person has to CHOOSE to turn from their sins. Just because you start to believe in Jesus does not mean you are free from any sin. Sin is still in this world and a person needs to make the choice to turn away from it. Changing your mind and turning away from something are practically one in the same. If you change your mind you are turning from the position you took previously. So wouldn't you agree that repentance is also needed to become a child of God?

I have never met a person who was truly putting their faith in Christ that was not living in a continuous state of daily repentance. Repentance is not a one-time thing you do to get saved. It is the constant response every day to conviction of the Holy Spirit.

[Scare Bear]

It is my understanding that the Church of Christ is a very tightly-controlled denomination, founded by Alexander Campbell. Campbell was an unsaved Baptist minister who taught that salvation was by works, with baptism being required as a part of earning your salvation.

Alexander Campbell's own words:

You have done me, gentlemen, too much honor in saying I am the

[Scare Bear]

The sinner's prayer is abiblical. It is not promoted or mentioned in the Bible, but it does not violate any biblical doctrines. It is a point of contact for the benefit of the person getting saved. It simplly helps them to remember the moment in time they were saved.

But it is not taught ANYWHERE in the bible that it is what one has to do. I'd rather go by what is actually IN the bible than make stuff up that isn't there.

That is the natural fruit of being a follower of Jesus. Trying to reform yourself before coming to Christ is pointless. It is Christ who changes us from the inside out

God did not give the children of Israel the law while they were ibondage in Egypt. He did not make their salvation from slavery dependent on keeping his commandments. God saved them first and THEN gave them his laws. Obedience is the fruit of our freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin.

They weren't spiritually saved. He saved them from their enemies not from sin.

Yes, they are works, but those works are the result of grace. It what a person under grace will do and how they will live. Grace is the expectation of holiness.

So works are needed in some way wouldn't you say?

YOur part is to receive God's grace.

But you can't receive it until YOU'VE done your part by believing and obeying.

Because faith is always accompanied by corresponding action. Their faith was evidenced by their works. You don't work to get faith. The reason we know these men had great faith was because of what they did. The faith has to be there in order for the works to manifest.

Exactly faith does have to be there, but it can't be faith only. Noah HAD to build the ark, Moses HAD to lead the people out of Egypt etc. It wasn't just faith alone.

Not at all. Jesus was restoring the true spirit of the law that had been perverted by the Rabbis. That is why the law taught to circumcise the heart. Heart circumcision refers to getting rid of sinfu motives and desires. Just as Jesus taught, sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh.

Where are the verses of this "heart" circumcision?

I have never met a person who was truly putting their faith in Christ that was not living in a continuous state of daily repentance. Repentance is not a one-time thing you do to get saved. It is the constant response every day to conviction of the Holy Spirit.

So You agree, it's more than just faith that saves you? Repentance is also needed right?

[Guest shiloh357]

So it has to be a commandment for it to be considered something we HAVE to do?

It has to be a commandment if you are going to label something as sin.

Couldn't we also follow the disciples examples? I mean after all, they were taught by Jesus.

In universe that has Jesus, why would I follow the disciples??? I prefer to follow Christ's example. He is the author and finisher of our faith, not the apostles.

I see nothing, absolutely nothing in the bible of them using musical instruments. So because it doesn't mention it it's alright to do it?

It is "abiblical" The Bible does not mention it so you cannot argue that it violates any biblical doctrines or Christian ethics. So long as you are not violating a commandmnent from God agaisnt musical instruments then you cannot argue that employing them in worship is a sin or is displeasing to GOd.

QUOTE

Every Christian ethic finds its origin in the law. There is NO part of the Christian life that is not part of the Law.

So I still have to stone people?

I have already addressed that absurd question and will not entertain it any further. Grow up.

Ok. So I can substitute the bread for carrots and grape juice is gonna be beer. As long as my heart is in it for the right reasons I can do whatever I want as long as it's for the Lord?

That is not what I said and you know it. Please, try to come up with reasonable responses instead of these silly questions.

But you say it's not important in order for us to be saved. In fact we'd go to heaven if we aren't baptized?

I did not say it was not important. It is important. What I said was that it is necessary for salvation.

Having the Holy spirit is not indicative of one being saved

Actually, having the HOly Spirit is the chief hallmark of being saved. The people in Cornelius' home were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Caiaphus did not "have" the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit manipulated Caiaphus to say what he said, but there is no way you can with any intellectual honesty, draw a comparison between Caiaphus and the people Cornelius' home.

Acts 11:15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.

Notice the part in red. How could one have faith before hearing the word?

Well, maybe you should familarize yourself with what Peter said before they received the Holy Spirit.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

(Act 10:34-44)

So, they heard the Word, received theWord and had received the gift of the Holy Spirit before being immersed in water.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

The sinner's prayer is abiblical. It is not promoted or mentioned in the Bible, but it does not violate any biblical doctrines. It is a point of contact for the benefit of the person getting saved. It simplly helps them to remember the moment in time they were saved.

But it is not taught ANYWHERE in the bible that it is what one has to do. I'd rather go by what is actually IN the bible than make stuff up that isn't there.

By that rationale, you should not meet in a building, you should not meet on Sunday, there should be no personally owned Bibles, no hymnbooks, since the NT also does not tell us specifically what songs we can and cannot sing.

QUOTE

That is the natural fruit of being a follower of Jesus. Trying to reform yourself before coming to Christ is pointless. It is Christ who changes us from the inside out

God did not give the children of Israel the law while they were ibondage in Egypt. He did not make their salvation from slavery dependent on keeping his commandments. God saved them first and THEN gave them his laws. Obedience is the fruit of our freedom in Christ from the bondage of sin.

They weren't spiritually saved. He saved them from their enemies not from sin.

Right but the point is that Exodus from Egypt is held up as a type or picture of salvation from sin.

QUOTE

Yes, they are works, but those works are the result of grace. It what a person under grace will do and how they will live. Grace is the expectation of holiness.

So works are needed in some way wouldn't you say?

To evidence your faith, but works are not part of how you obtain salvation.

QUOTE

YOur part is to receive God's grace.

But you can't receive it until YOU'VE done your part by believing and obeying.

Grace is what you receive. Obedience is the fruit of grace.

QUOTE

Not at all. Jesus was restoring the true spirit of the law that had been perverted by the Rabbis. That is why the law taught to circumcise the heart. Heart circumcision refers to getting rid of sinfu motives and desires. Just as Jesus taught, sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh.

Where are the verses of this "heart" circumcision?

Deut. 10:16, Jer. 4:4

So You agree, it's more than just faith that saves you? Repentance is also needed right?

You are saved by grace through faith. Repentance is the response to God's grace. Repentance means "to change your mind." Repentance does not save you. It is necessary, but is again the daily fruit of grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

One time I considered going to a Church of Christ. When I saw their statement on their website said that you are not welcomed at the church if you have not been baptized, I was turned off by it.

I am baptized but I thought that was weird.

I know some people who are Church of Christ AND Apostolic Pentacostal. Both believe that baptism is requried for salvation, but with one caveat. They believe that unless you were baptized in their denomination, your baptism doesn't count. If you were baptized in an Assemblies of God, Baptist church or any other church that practices immersion, your baptism is considered by them to be invalid.

[Guest shiloh357]

I know some people who are Church of Christ AND Apostolic Pentacostal. Both believe that baptism is requried for salvation, but with one caveat. They believe that unless you were baptized in their denomination, your baptism doesn't count. If you were baptized in an Assemblies of God, Baptist church or any other church that practices immersion, your baptism is considered by them to be invalid.

But if one is baptized in water "for the remission of sins" why would it matter who does the baptizing?

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Act 2:38 ESV)

Not everyone baptizes under the belief that they are immersing or being immersed for the remissions of sins. Southern Baptists believe that baptism is an outward, public testimony of one's profession of faith. They do not teach that baptism is for the remission of sins. Neither do the Assemblies of God, and neither do some other Evangelical denominations.

So these people I know from the Church of Christ and Apostolic Pentacostals, believe that people in those denominations are not Christians. They told me that anyone belonging to those denominations are all going to hell because their baptisms are invalid.

[Guest shiloh357]

Repentance means "to change your mind." Repentance does not save you. It is necessary, but is again the daily fruit of grace.

Clarification please - can one be saved before he repents, i.e., does repentance come before one shall be saved?

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. ~ Jesus Christ

Repentance is a decision to turn from sin. It happens when a person receives the gospel. It is how we respond. There is no grocery list of things a person has to do to be saved. Repentance is what happens when a person ackknowledges they are sinner and they make the decision to turn from their sin. True repentance will lead to a change in actions. (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19).

Acts 26:20 shows that repentence leads to a change.

but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

(Act 26:20)

It is impossible for anyone to place their faith in Christ without repenting. You have to change your mind about Christ and who he is.

Repentence is not a work we do to earn salvation. True repentence will be born out in our works, though. Real Repentence is based in genuine faith and faith-based repenence will result in good works we were created to perform (Eph. 2:10)

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Feb 4 2010, 07:43 PM)

Not everyone baptizes under the belief that they are immersing or being immersed for the remissions of sin

Why don

[Guest shiloh357]

It is impossible for anyone to place their faith in Christ without repenting.

Then we are in agreement