Church of Christ: Cult,sect or true

[Guest shiloh357]

It's relevant because you are arguing one does not need to be baptized to be saved and I have just showed you that you do.

No, you have shown me a verse from which you infer that baptism is necessary. There are a plethora of verses about salvation that say nothing about baptism being necessary. Frankly, you are believing a false gospel. Paul said that those who teach any other gospel are accursed.

QUOTE

So if a person is accepts Christ on an airplane and the plane crashes before they can get baptized, do they go to hell???

Unfortunately if they had every opportunity to do so prior to the plane crash then yes. But if the person was really honest about wanting to be saved I think God would give them the opportunity to get baptized.

That is the problem with cultic theology. It presents a works-based salvation. To say that God would send a person to hell who has trused in Christ but did not have access to water is false doctrine and has no place in authentic New Testament Christianity.

So how could Cornelius and his household have the Holy Spirit? It doesn't say they believed at that point. Peter wasn't even finished speaking when the Holy Spirit came upon them.

The Holy Spirit doesn't fall on unbelievers. He only falls on believers. There is not ONE unbeliever that had the Holy Spirit in the NT. Your false gospel just doesn't match Scripture.

How am I back tracking?

You just didn't think your assertion through.

Can a group of people come together to worship God in the middle of a storm out in a field somewhere? No, it'd be hard to get everyone to gather together in that scenario.

Which is why worship CAN contain elements that are not commanded by God.

A building is just used as a way for us to have all come and worship together. Hymnbooks help us to do what is commanded, to sing. Let's say you go to a church you're unfamiliar with. You'd like to participate in their services and sing with them but you can't because you don't know the words and don't have a hymnbook... Hymnbooks are there so that everyone can participate. I can't participate if someone else is playing the music for me. I can't participate if someone else is giving a solo.

So you cannot sing a song if muscial instruments are playing??? Are you serious??? I guiess you have never sang along to a song on the radio or on TV?? That is just really absurd.

Paul said to make melody in your heart to the Lord. He did not say to sing from a hymnbook, so to apply your standard, hymnbooks are a no no. That also rules out congregational singing as well. Frankly, your "church" of Christ is doing the very same thing they accuse the rest of us of doing just because we praise the Lord with instruments as well as singing.

I understand that there are things out there that are never mentioned. But quite honestly when it comes to God's word, I'd rather not assume and add something to worship that was never mentioned.

The problem is that you are making all kinds of assumptions, and you cannot back any of them up. You assume, but your assumptions are entirely unwarranted.

I

don't see how ephesians 5:19 couldn't be any clearer. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,.... Sounds to me like something that is done as a group

Where does it mention "church services?" Where does it mention Sunday morning??? Where does it say, "this is how you do Sunday morning worship?" You are reading into the text, things that are not there. It does not specificy what kind of group. It does not specify a congregation. It can realistically only refer to you and one other person.

[Maestroh]

I happened across one of their people at a local gas station a day or so ago. This guy sounded like a total stoned cultist with a canned answer for everything. These people don't even allow music in their services because there are no examples of music in the New Testament. Is anyone here familiar with the meatier portions of their teachings?

The problem with the 'Church of Christ' is that they are hard-wired to respond a certain way. There is - in fact - a cultic like repetition of mantras to questions. Their primary flaw is the assumption that the philosophy of common sense is a reliable grid through which to view the Bible.

I think many of them are sincere believers.

[nikos]

CoC believes that you are not saved if you have not been baptizd in water. They believe in faith plus works. Most believe in no musical instruments. They do not believe in OSAS which is one good thing in their favor.

[eis]

Hello,

First time poster here. I have read much of the lively discussion regarding the churches of Christ. It's amazing to see the misinformation and the outright dislike for members of the churches of Christ.

Scare Bear you seem to be holding your own pretty well. Unfortunately it appears that no reasonable argument or Scriptural discussion is enough to alter the feelings of some in this discussion. Men have a hard time accepting the truth even when it is in front of them.

Many of us who worship in the churches of Christ do have strong feeling regarding the inspired Word and how it should be applied. Some call this "legalism" but I feel that it is more of a respect for what is written in an effort to avoid offending our loving God. And, there are many of us who are babes in Christ even after having been in the Lord's church for years and years. Hence there are some really dumb things said like, "He will go to hell because of ..." when is essence it isn't our place to determine who goes to heaven or to hell. Our place is to sow the seed and water where others have been. I fear the great damage places like this board do to the kingdom of God. Bickering and name calling e.g. those cultish church of Christ people are hardly Christ-like.

My appeal would be to concentrate on what the total of Scripture says which allows us to understand God's love and nature. It teaches us how to come to Him on His terms not in part of the Word, but in it's totality. Yes, we are under a new covenant found in the New Testament. Therein lies our answer.

Scare Bear, people don't want the truth. That's why your are persecuted for what you teach. My caveat is that I haven't read all your posts, but the ones that I have read seem to be solid.

Edited March 11, 2010 by eis

[eis]

Interestingly the "faith-only" preachers hang their hat on faith...basic faith that identifies Jesus as Lord and Savior. All one must do is profess that faith and they are saved. In Hebrews we see that there were many who had faith and their faith was tied to their actions. They didn't just believe and go their merry way, they believed and acted. Yes, we are saved by faith through grace not of works, but faith without works, well James says that's a dead faith. You may have faith that a bridge will hold you up to pass to the other side, but unless you act upon that faith and actually cross the bridge you will stay where you are.

There are many who believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but that's about as far as their faith goes. You have a hard time seeing them live their faith in many of their actions. For sure, they are good people, they don't steal, commit adultery etc, but they have no real concern over their relationship with God. They have faith that they are saved because someone told them that all they have to do is "say this prayer" or "believe that He is". We, in the churches of Christ see this as being taught about salvation but far short from being saved. Hearing and believing are but a part of the active faith. I agree one who believes will be saved, but that belief is an active belief that causes the believer to seek God on God's terms, not his own. A true seeker of salvation through Christ will understand that their faith(belief) will cause them to "do" certain acts. They will seek and do good works. They will seek out other believers and become a part of the household of faith and the will be baptized that they may be saved and "put on Christ" in baptism and walk in the light.

All those who wish to call the churches of Christ a sect or cult need to examine their hearts and ask why it is that they are so offended by the members of the churches of Christ who are trying to seek out God through His Word. Yes, we have many ignorant members who manage to distort the message of Christ, but I am sure many of you worship with those who do the same. Their faith isn't complete and their understanding is less complete. It is not to say that I have attained fullness of understanding or faith, but I can say I am much more mature in Christ than I was 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

[Scare Bear]

No because we WERE given a prescription for how to conduct communion.

Thank you, you just proved the point. We have been given the prescription on how to conduct worship services.

Yes, but that really is not the argument I am making. I never said we were under the rule of the Old Testament. The problem is that morality and the ethics of the Old Testament are not bound by a particular time period. The NT does not say it is wrong for a man to sleep with His daughter-in-law. Would we assume such behavior is no longer sinful? Of course not. We are not under the civil or ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament economy, but ethics and moralilty do not apply where that issue is concerned. The are universal and apply to both covenants.

So I'm confused, do we follow ALL the rules that apply to a person in the Old and New Testaments or do we just follow what is convenient?

Where are we commanded in the Bible to model ourselves after the 1st Century churches??? The 1st century churches were wrought with problems of sexual immorality, in-fighting, cult-infiltration, apathy, etc. Why would we model ourselves after them?

Everyone sins, everyone does wrong. It does not mean that we can't model our worship services from the GOOD examples that were given us. Maybe that was my bad and I was not clear enough.

Jesus is our model.

I would think they'd have a better grip on what was to be done in worship to God than anyone would today. You need to study a bit better.

Yes Jesus is our model, He is number one. But The apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit to carry out the Lord's work and thus we should also model ourselves after their teachings, they were taught by the Master.

[Scare Bear]

Scare Bear you seem to be holding your own pretty well. Unfortunately it appears that no reasonable argument or Scriptural discussion is enough to alter the feelings of some in this discussion. Men have a hard time accepting the truth even when it is in front of them.

Scare Bear, people don't want the truth. That's why your are persecuted for what you teach. My caveat is that I haven't read all your posts, but the ones that I have read seem to be solid.

I thank you very much and if you do get a chance to read some of the posts I hope all are solid, but if I may have messed up anywhere I pray it will be found and corrected.

And you are right it's getting harder and harder it seems for people to want to actually hear truth nowadays. I hope you have a good day and God Bless!

[Scare Bear]

Most are sincere but there is no systematic conditioning primarily due to a lack of a central organization.

Do you mean like a central headquarters?

[Scare Bear]

No, you have shown me a verse from which you infer that baptism is necessary. There are a plethora of verses about salvation that say nothing about baptism being necessary. Frankly, you are believing a false gospel. Paul said that those who teach any other gospel are accursed.

Twisted Scripture John 3:16

If you have the time to check out a 6 minute video.

There are also a plethora of verses that mention baptism IS necessary. So either it is important or it isn't.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Acts 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them,

[Guest yod]

Many of us who worship in the churches of Christ do have strong feeling regarding the inspired Word and how it should be applied. Some call this "legalism" but I feel that it is more of a respect for what is written in an effort to avoid offending our loving God.

if you check my contributions to this thread, you'll see that I have been consistently saying that there are many wonderful saints in the CoC and my only problem is with the Boston Movement or International CoC which IS a cult and I doubt you would disagree.

But pertaining to the statement you just made, no one here has ever promoted a disrespect for the Word of God so I believe you are mischaracterizing the debate.

Here's the defintion of legalism; it is the exalting of oneself over others through the use of rules.

We each have strong convictions about what it means to serve the Living God. We each are passionate about how to please our Abba. Everyone here wants to obey Yeshua (aka Jesus in the greek world)

However.....

When you start imposing traditions and disputable interpretations upon others, you have crossed the line into legalism.

Historically, almost every church denomination has gone through a period where they have done this. I don't think CoC has cornered the market on that but I do find that far too many CoC friends are quick to criticize those who hold to different traditions and then presume to speak for God as if they are the only ones able to read the scriptures. Quite often they try to paint it as if they are the only denomination authorized to hold a legitimate baptism. And they also impose a prohibition against musical instruments from silence in the scriptures in an inconsistent way (the scripture are silent on many other things as well which they have no problem with)

We should all consider Romans 14 before criticizing the saints and sometimes disagreements appear to be worse than they really are when you read it in a discussion board because you don't see the body language of the speaker.

I believe Shiloh has made many valid points which Scare Bear has no answer for. Not a big deal....we're still brothers/sisters in the same Body of Messiah.

Unless, of course, the CoC thinks we are not and I find there are many in the CoC who are all too ready to isolate themselves from the rest of us.