Mary's appearence at fatima

[ServingHim]

whoever said that Mary could save?

Actually, John Paul II said exactly that a couple of years ago. It was just short of an ex cathedra proclamation, but this is his personal belief.

Many Catholics have considered Mary a "co-redeemer" alongside her son, for many years. And they are now trying to persuade the Vatican to make it an official church doctrine.

according to this site about Pope John Paul II:

In the summer of 1995, Pope John Paul II began a lengthy catechisis on the Blessed Virgin Mary during his weekly Angelus addresses, culminating on 25 October 1995, with his instruction on Our Lady's active participation in the Sacrifice of Calvary. This active participation of Our Lady at Calvary is called the corredemption. Already in 1982 and 1985 Pope John Paul II used the term "corredemptrix" in reference to Our Lady in public addresses. This is significant, for he is the first Pope to do so since Pope Benedict XV at whose prayer Our Lady came to Fatima to reveal Her Immaculate Heart. Since the time of Pope Benedict XV, this terminology was under review by the Holy See; the present Pope's usage is a confirmation of this traditional view of Mary's role in salvation history.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264.htm

Is this what you're speaking of? I'd love to read the actual document. Thanks, Steve.

[ServingHim]

I don't say they are invalid...if the church proclaims them as valid, then they are.  I just don't personally know them all

Then maybe you should look into it.

In my experience, most people in most churches don't really know much about the religion that they profess. Or at least, not as much as they think. So they go about defending it based upon their limited perspective.

This includes Catholics.

so then in order to be Catholic, one has to know the faith and all it's intricacies, details and history before they can 'truly profess' that they are Catholic Christians. This seems a little harsh don't you think? Our faith is a journey, and it isn't 'what we know' but how we love!

I'm still learning, and if we say we know it all, then we're only fooling ourselves.

5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 2 Peter 1:5-7 (RSV)

faith FIRST, virtue SECOND, knowledge THIRD...

we know that "all of us possess knowledge." "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if one loves God, one is known by him. 1 Cor 8:1-3 (RSV)

[ServingHim]

In my experience, most people in most churches don't really know much about the religion that they profess.

I KNOW this about my faith and would die before I would reject ANY of it!

I believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Guest LadyC]

whoever said that Mary could save? now you're reading into the discussion merely speculation that you've conjured up in your mind that is false.

it's a false doctrine taught by the tenets of the catholic church... no matter how many hundreds of years ago they were in use! and like i said, i recall one of them being said at mass when i visited a catholic church at the age of 18. now i'm old, but i'm not THAT old!!! besides, i also posted links to CURRENT sites, including a catholic university, that teach the things i posted regarding the worship and praying to mary. we also have a member on this board whom i haven't seen for a while who used to go to great lengths convincing people here that mary had salvific powers! i'm glad you don't agree with that doctrine though.

it is not my assessment of Mary, but the early Church's assessment...I'm just a student of our Lord...His Church teaches. I don't tell the church what is and isn't 'truth'...our Lord teaches me THROUGH His Church.

the same church, in fact, the same early church, that came up with those prayers to mary worshipping her in adoration and praise and asking her to heal, deliver, and save them? it's fine to learn things from your church SH, but we should never rely on the church's doctrine as the final authority on what it's teaching. i prefer to let the Lord teach me through His scriptures... and isn't that what we are told to do? be like the bereans and search the scripture to make sure what the church is teaching us is lining up?

[ServingHim]

whoever said that Mary could save? now you're reading into the discussion merely speculation that you've conjured up in your mind that is false.

it's a false doctrine taught by the tenets of the catholic church...

you're welcome to you opinion; opinions are just that: OPINION!

[ServingHim]

including a catholic university, that teach the things i posted regarding the worship and praying to mary.

please show me in ANY official church document that TEACHES to WORHSIP MARY.

[ServingHim]

convincing people here that mary had salvific powers! i'm glad you don't agree with that doctrine though.

I don't know what you mean by 'powers'... the Catechism teaches this:

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

I believe she 'cooperates' with Her Son's mission ... she doesn't have 'special powers'. That's NOT what the church teaches, I do know that for sure.

[ServingHim]

the same church, in fact, the same early church, that came up with those prayers to mary worshipping her in adoration and praise and asking her to heal, deliver, and save them? it's fine to learn things from your church SH, but we should never rely on the church's doctrine as the final authority on what it's teaching.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18 (RSV)

Then you must believe that the above scripture then is not true...for error (i.e. death) is opposite of Truth. Jesus Christ IS Truth (John 14:6).

Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, Eph 5:24 (RSV)

[stevehut]

Is this what you're speaking of? I'd love to read the actual document.

Sounds familiar. But the statement that I wrote about, was much more recent than that. In the last 3-4 years, I think.

[stevehut]

so then in order to be Catholic, one has to know the faith and all it's intricacies, details and history before they can 'truly profess' that they are Catholic Christians.

Nope. But this business about Mary (seems to me) is far too important for any Catholic person not to know.

And they shouldn't get angry if us Protestants happen to stumble across something they don't know about.