Mary's appearence at fatima

[ServingHim]

Christ is the rock of our foundation.

Scripture says ... built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, Eph 2:20 (RSV)

the "church" is the body of ALL believers, not just those who attend mass on sunday morning.

ladyC, with all due respect, no one has ever stated that the church is ONLY those who attend mass ... it's your misconception ... being a christian involves much more than 'attending any church service', whether it be a mass, or a pentacostal revival, or evangelical concert service, or synagogue. It's what is in the heart, your faith, AND what you DO with the grace given you in this life. Peace.

Edited July 27, 2004 by ServingHim

[ServingHim]

please show me in ANY official church document that TEACHES to WORHSIP MARY.

[ServingHim]

And they shouldn't get angry if us Protestants happen to stumble across something they don't know about.

no one's angry...but defending, yes...angry, nope! :il:

[ServingHim]

But, what does the Bible say?

The Bible says, 'Go to the Church' to find out...

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Note: It doesn't say, look through Scripture. What the Bible tells us is to look to the Church, not make up our own interpretation, doesn't it? When Paul calls the Church the 'pillar and foundation of the Truth', does he mean that Scripture really is the pillar and foundation?

Now, Exit Stage Left! Ciao.

excellent point, GoodSamaritan!

[ServingHim]

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

and yet still, not one single scripture in the BIBLE even implies that mary is 'holy'.

so are all believers 'holy'? Who IS HOLY? JESUS is Holy, right?! Anyone else?

but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16 . . . we're called to be HOLY as HE is HOLY. And apparently Mary right from the beginning is said to be full of grace (Luke 1:28) and 'her soul magnifies the Lord' (Luke 1:46). To magnify would mean to make known clearly. Clearly she was 'highly favored' (Luke 1:28)...I'd say that she was holy! And aren't WE called to 'be holy'?

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Eph 1:4 ... if WE could fit into this category, then most certainly the chosen Mother of God could fit into this category and BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS (i.e. free of sin).

I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Romans 12:1 (RSV)

Don't you think that Mary, the Mother of God is ALSO included? For afterall, God CHOSE HER from the foundation of the world to be the Mother of His Only Begotten Son, God made flesh...YET you seem to be telling me that since the scriptures didn't say ... "MARY IS HOLY", that she isn't? What about James, Bartholemew, and any of the OTHER apostles? Mary most definitely presented herself as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable for our Lord to reside in her womb for 9 months.

Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." Rev 22:11 . . . who is John speaking of here?

I believe it is very believable that Mary is Holy, even though the scriptures do not spell out 'MARY IS HOLY'; we believe that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, YET nowhere in the scriptures do the scriptures SPELL OUT WHICH books are to be included in the sacred Scriptures, NOR does the bible spell out that the Word of God IS to be called 'THE BIBLE'. Peace, Hope, Love. :il:

[ServingHim]

furthermore, i found the following quotes in the catholic encyclopedia, so it is obviouly not just my mere opinion.

In this way, from the first moment of her conception -- which is to say of her existence -- belonged to Christ, sharing in the salvific and sanctifying grace and in that love which has its beginning in the "Beloved," the Son of the Eternal Father,

THIS IS THE SOURCE ... reading the WHOLE would give the bigger picture instead of just pulling out one sentence. . . . yet again, this doesn't DIRECT us to WORSHIP Mary.

Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings.

While it is difficult to comprehend, we must remember that Adam and Eve lived on a higher level. They lived in a much higher state, one that was very close to God. Defying God by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was so serious that it cost them Eden; it cost them their immortality; and it became a sin that was transferred to future generations. In His great mercy, Our Heavenly Father promised to send a Savior. Indeed He sent His only begotten Son, who was one with the Father. In essence the Father, not only sacrificed His only Son for his human children, but sacrificed Himself as well. His plan for our salvation; however, requires our active participation. As children of God, we are called to co-redemption. Indeed, according to Holy Scripture, we can not enter the kingdom of Heaven unless we co-redeem ourselves. In no way does this detract from the Redemptive Sacrifice of Jesus, but rather it serves to compliment it.

It was St. Paul who said "For we are God

[Guest LadyC]

the point still remains... mary is seen by the catholic doctrine as being salvific, a co-redemptress if you will... and i don't know what documents are official and what aren't, but clearly it is a very common phenomenon, given the documentation i have provided, that a large percentage of catholics definitely do pray TO mary, for everything from intercession to redemption. so you can pick apart my posts if you want, it doesn't change the facts.

anyway, i'm bowing out permanently. i've got a sickly husband to tend to.

[ServingHim]

the point still remains... mary is seen by the catholic doctrine as being salvific, a co-redemptress if you will

yes, you are right. She IS seen as a co-redemptrix. The Church has said so. One doesn't have to agree with it, but disagreeing doesn't mean that it isn't truth.

catholics definitely do pray TO mary,

rather, they ask for intercession ...

anyway, i'm bowing out permanently. i've got a sickly husband to tend to.

I'm sorry to hear that. I pray your husband gets better quickly. Blessings and peace. :il:

[Guest Called]

yes, you are right. She IS seen as a co-redemptrix. The Church has said so. One doesn't have to agree with it, but disagreeing doesn't mean that it isn't truth.

IT ISN'T THE TRUTH IT IS UTTER BLASPHEMY! UNREAL! JUST UNREAL! MY MIGHTY JESUS-ALL-POWERFUL-ALL KNOWING-ALMIGHTY DID NOT NEED SOME WOMAN TO HELP HIM SAVE THE WORLD! I BELIEVE GOD COULD HAVE CHOSEN ANY WAY FOR JESUS TO SAVE US. I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE THIS BLASPHEMY, TO THINK THAT MARY HELPED TO REDEEM US! UNREAL! I JUST DON't KNOW WHAT MORE TO SAY!

[ServingHim]

For more learning insteading of rejecting without first researching from the source ...

Peace!